quote:

---

worst possible shot in the NBA.

---

Quit being retarded. Should he have gotten deeper? Yes. Was it "the worst possible shot in the NBA?" Please. Don't be ridiculous.

The most talented player in the NBA has 10 seconds, 2 time outs and has a mismatch and he settles for a 22ft fadeaway.

That is terrible decision making heroball. He played 15.5 minutes of the 4th Q and OT. I don't know where you are getting some extended break from. He only sat 5 minutes of the entire game.

Even if he had played every minute of the 4th quarter and overtime, his numbers were solid, and he collected two crucial rebounds, got a crucial put-back, and a crucial assist.

And he did that on a night when his shot was not falling. Nobody else in the NBA can do what that guy does. I wish you haters would learn to appreciate his great talent, his unselfish play, and his unparalleled ability to produce across the stat sheet.

[This message has been edited by Whistling For Flies (edited 5/31/2012 1:43a).]

quote:

---

Quit being retarded. Should he have gotten deeper? Yes. Was it "the worst possible shot in the NBA?" Please. Don't be ridiculous.

---

A 22ft fadeaway shot is the worst shot in the NBA. The most difficult 2-point shot possible. Ask any real basketball coach. Your expected value is incredibly low, and you don't even get the benefit of an extra point by being a half a foot inside the line.

TERRIBLE decision making.

The best shot in the NBA is the corner three because it is the closest possible three and that is why guys like Ray Allen or Bruce Bowen can make a living off that shot. Your expected value is incredibly high for that shot in the hands of a good shooter.

[This message has been edited by Guitarsoup (edited 5/31/2012 1:43a).]

He can put up all the 34/10/7 games he wants to. He's been doing that for years. Fact is if he doesn't win this year, that is 0-3 in the Finals and no rings in 9 years. Still have lots of basketball to play, but that is not a good statistic for the most freakish athlete to ever play the game.

quote:

---

Maybe you just don't understand basketball that well.

---

Well, maybe I don't. Or, maybe you are acting like a little girl. The worst shot in the NBA???? Really????

And he did have good numbers for the game. Getting to the line as much as the entire Celtics team certainly didn't hurt that when he was struggling from the floor - 7-20 for the game and 1-5 in the 4th and OT.

I would say that anyone that doesn't instantly recognize the 22ft fadeaway as the lowest return shot in basketball doesn't really understand the game.

Bron had plenty of time to get to the hole. For whatever reason, he chose to take an insanely low percentage shot on a night when he was shooting like ****.

That is terrible decision making and I don't understand how anyone can say other wise.

Did he make some big plays? Absolutely. Did he carry the Heat to the win? Not at all.

quote:

---

Getting to the line as much as the entire Celtics team

---

First, that's false.

Second, why do you say that like it counts against him? He got to the line because the Celtics fouled him, and he gets credit for getting there. It's a mark in his favor.

quote:

---

I would say that anyone that doesn't instantly recognize the 22ft fadeaway as the lowest return shot in basketball doesn't really understand the game.

---

You need to grow up.

quote:

---

That is terrible decision making and I don't understand how anyone can say other wise.

---

Nobody did say otherwise. I just called you out for your ridiculous exaggeration that he took "the worst shot in the NBA."

quote:

---

22ft fadeaway as the lowest return shot in basketball

---

At the end of regulation, where a 3 is neither more nor less helpful than a 2, a 22 ft fadeaway is not a lower return shot than, say, a 24 foot fadeaway. So you are wrong. Further, while he should have gotten deeper, I don't think he was at 22 feet, though I could be remembering wrongly.

[This message has been edited by Whistling For Flies (edited 5/31/2012 1:58a).]

quote:

---

You need to grow up.

---

Interesting.

From the guy who just wrote:

quote:

---

But it shows that you are letting you emotions drive your judgment.

---

quote:

---

Quit being retarded.

---

quote:

---

Or, maybe you are acting like a little girl.

---

I'm not the one here that is emotionally invested. I don't like either team and Garnett is my least favorite player in the NBA.

But I don't know how you can defend his incredibly poor decision making other than the fact that you apparently didn't realize what he did was an incredibly poor decision.

quote:

---

Nobody did say otherwise. I just called you out for your ridiculous exaggeration that he took "the worst shot in the NBA."

---

Not an exaggeration at all. It truly is the worst shot. Fadeaways are a more difficult shot than a regular jump shot, so your % is down. The farther away a shot is, the more difficult it is. He took the longest possible shot that wasn't a three pointer, added a fadeaway over a guy that couldn't have blocked it anyway even though he had plenty of time and two timeouts. The shot with the lowest expected value and highest degree of difficulty. That was absolutely, positively stupid. And everyone on Texags immediately said that is why Miami isn't going to win it all - because they choose to play hero ball rather than set up the high percentage shot. Stupid, stupid stupid.

quote:

---

At the end of regulation, where a 3 is neither more nor less helpful than a 2, a 22 ft fadeaway is not a lower return shot than, say, a 24 foot fadeaway.

---

That doesn't change the fact that the 22ft 2-pointer fadeaway is the shot with the lowest expected return in the game. Sure, he could have gone to mid court and throw up a hook shot, but he wouldn't have done that. Probably.

In what world does saying "it was a poor decision, but not the worst shot in the NBA" count as "defending his decision?"

What is wrong with you?


If my calling you retarded for asserting that he took "the worst shot in the NBA" hurt your feelings, I'm sorry. I was just stunned that you said that.

When you said that "I don't understand basketball," I took it personally. I've coached a state-ranked team. Have you?

I also take it personally that you insist on continuing to act like I am "defending his decision on the final shot." I've not done that. I have defended his performance down the stretch, but not that shot.





[This message has been edited by Whistling For Flies (edited 5/31/2012 2:13a).]

It is shot with the lowest expected value in the NBA, and therefor the worst shot in the NBA. How do you not understand that.

Do you understand the principle of expected value?

quote:

---

It is shot with the lowest expected value in the NBA, and therefor the worst shot in the NBA.

---

First, it's not. I've seen many worse shots than that shot, even given that it was just inside the 2 point line. Second, in that situation, it make no difference whether or not the shot is a 2 or a 3, so a 24 foot fadeaway would be a worst shot than a 22 foot fade way.

Why can't you just admit that you exaggerated?

quote:

---

Do you understand the principle of expected value?

---

Yes. And I've seen many, many shots (even two point shots) with a higher degree of difficulty than the one Lebron took. (Note, once again, that I am not saying that he took a good shot. It was a bad shot.)

[This message has been edited by Whistling For Flies (edited 5/31/2012 2:20a).]

Clearly he doesn't grasp the expected return concept. Oh well can't reach everyone

Do you honestly think that Lebron's shot was the highest degree of difficulty 2 point shot that can possibly be taken in the NBA.

I don't think anybody could honestly believe that. It's all about Lebron hate.

It isn't an exaggeration. That is the worst shot in the NBA.

For a normal shot, the average from where LeBron shot is about 36% across the NBA. That includes wide open shots, in your face shoots - everything. So your expected value on a shot from there is about .72 points per shot. That's for all shots taken from that spot. Obviously, when someone is defending you closely, your % goes down and when you shoot a fadeaway, your % goes down. [May not apply to the Germans.]

Step two feet behind there an the shot is a 34% shot. So out of 50 tries, you will make about one less. However, it is a 3 point shot. So your expected value for the 24 foot shot is about 1.02 points per shot.

Instead of taking the path of no resistance and shooting the wild outside fadeaway and he went into the elbow to shoot, he is now at a 40% shot league wide. Up to .8 points per shot expected value. And again, that doesn't take into account the fact that LeBron got every call down the stretch and that he can take it to the hoop better than anyone.

Obviously, the extra point doesn't help in this situation, but when was the last time you saw someone shoot a three with the game tied and no time on the clock? I can't remember it. Just like no one is throwing up a 40 foot hook shot, you aren't seeing many people jack up a three when you only need one.

And since Bron was getting to the line with ease (8 FTA in the 4th Q - more than the Boston Celtics entire team!) it was a terrible decision to take a shot where 1. the expected value is low and 2. there is almost no way to get fouled because you are jumping away from the fouler. You only need 1 point and the other team doesn't have a time out to stop after you make the first FT and intentionally clank the second one.



So here is the general area of that shot. In the playoffs, in the 18-24' area of that circle where he choose to play hero ball, LeBron has shot 2-20.

So I stand by my statement. LeBron made a terrible decision and we got the expected return. I doubt there is a single place on the court where he is colder than where he took that shot. He is shooting 10% from that region! That include wide open looks, game winning attempts, everything.

And I will stand behind the just inside the 3-point line being the worst shot in basketball, although there is some support for the 10-16 foot range just outside the paint on either side. Generally past the range of most big men and most good shooters stay away from there so the shot blockers can't get to them. So it is like a hole on the floor unless you are a Dirk/Duncan/Bosh that likes to post high and make the turnaround.

quote:

---

So I stand by my statement. LeBron made a terrible decision and we got the expected return.

---

That wasn't your statement. If that had been your statement, i would not have called you out for being ridiculous. You statement was that he took the "worst shot in the NBA."


You are using a lot of words, but none of them can defend what you said. If Lebron had jumped from a foot or so further back, he would have been on the three point line when he jumped. That would have been a worst shot than the one he took. Ergo, the shot he took was not the worst shot in the NBA. This is a matter of logical certainty. There is no room for debate. None. What you said was an exaggeration, even ignoring a million other factors (like the obvious fact that people have taken two point shots with a higher degree of difficulty than the one Lebron took...floor placement is not the sole determining factor of a shot's expected payout).

quote:

---

. You statement was that he took the "worst shot in the NBA."

---

And I stand by it. The 22' fadeaway two point shot is the worst shot in the NBA.

quote:

---

You are using a lot of words, but none of them can defend what you said

---

All of them do, you just apparently don't understand statistics.

And it also doesn't take into account that LeBron is shooting just 10% for the entire playoffs for that spot. LeBron had plenty of time and he decided to go with his worst option.

Low basketball IQ play. Terrible shot selection.

Leaving aside whether it was literally the worst possible shot/lowest percentage shot/worst situation shot/whatever, it boggles the mind that Lebron didn't drive there.

His early-career clutch statistics were great because he drove to the rim and either made a layup or got fouled. It's almost like he wants to add some spectacular, high degree-of-difficulty gamewinners to his highlight reel so he can be "like Kobe"... well, he is being like Kobe in that his clutch statistics are tanking and he is losing games that could have been won. Hero ball is losing basketball.

The Celtics can't keep him from driving and the refs were just praying for the chance to call a foul. Get to the rim, moron.

[This message has been edited by Ulrich (edited 5/31/2012 10:39a).]

Someone gets it.

Degree of difficulty does not matter here...James had smaller player guarding him so he was able to get a clean look.

However, that shot is one of the worst shots you can take given the full circumstances of the situation. (I maintain that the "worst" shot is the long 2 with your toe on the line, much like the one Rondo had.) James had been to the free throw line 24 times last night and there are very few people whom he can't drive on. A smart play would have been to go to the bucket and make Boston double you and go up strong.

It doesn't really matter because they still won the game, but that jump shot is not James's strong suit and was very poor decision.

"First in Sight, Ready to Fight"

Agree, terrible shot selection. If anything he should have gone left and shot the fade away from that side of the court, as he's MUCH more comfortable going left.

The other thing(as we discussed on the other thread) is that it is idiotic that Spoel didn't call a timeout. Regardless of what Lebron did last night, I've seen every superstar in the league do that exact same thing(dribble down 10+ seconds and jack up a jump shot at the buzzer) so it's not like he's the only moron. That's where a competent coach comes in. They make the right play as he attacks the hoop and doesn't make a tough layup but gets his own rebound...16 seconds left, where was the ****ing time out?

[This message has been edited by Bunk Moreland (edited 5/31/2012 10:49a).]

Has anyone said it wasn't a terrible shot selection? Anyone?

quote:

---

However, that shot is one of the worst shots you can take given the full circumstances of the situation. (I maintain that the "worst" shot is the long 2 with your toe on the line, much like the one Rondo had.)

---

I agree. Soup thinks you "don't understand basketball" or that "you don't understand statistics."

[This message has been edited by Whistling For Flies (edited 5/31/2012 11:22a).]

The statistical difference in his shot and an identical shot 6" back is impossible to calculate.

And whistling, I do think you don't understand all those things based on all your fanboy responses. Don't let emotions get in the way.

When Lebron left the floor for that shot, he was more like two feet inside the three line.

But you are emotionally incapable of admitting that you are wrong.





[This message has been edited by Whistling For Flies (edited 5/31/2012 11:31a).]

Take it to the Heat thread.

I've got no problem admitting when I am wrong, but I'm not here. I've even given you the statistical period for my statement.

You can't get past your fan boy emotions so you have to try to nit pick any little thing you possibly can despite overwhelming proof supporting my statement.

I'm going to give this one last try.

When Lebron left the floor, he was about 2 feet inside the three point line. Suppose he had been on the line. Would that have been a worse shot that the one he took? Just "yes" or "no" please.

If you say "no," then it will be obvious that you are being obtuse.

If you say "yes," then you will be admitting that your assertion that he took the "worst possible shot in the NBA" was an exaggeration.

That your claim was an exaggeration has been my point the entire time. I've not once defended the shot selection; I've called it a bad shot over and over and over again.

GS, your statistical argument that it was a terrible shot is accurate, but Whistling's point that you were engaging in hyperbole is also correct. Not sure why you are going with all the insults.

So, how about them Spurs?

I think there is a game tonight.

Everybody wants to be MJ... as long as the Spurs get it everybody else can play hero ball

As for Lebron's late game numbers, consider this: an NBA OT is 5 minutes, and a quarter is 12 minutes. Lebron came into the game after a break with 7 minutes to go. Add that 7 minutes to the 5 minutes of OT, and you have a full quarter. During that time, he went for 10 points, 6 boards, and 2 assists (I thought it was 3, but I remembered wrong). Do that for 4 quarters, and you get 40 points, 24 boards, and 8 assists. Are we really going to say that he performed badly late in that game? It's absurd, despite the bad shot on the final possession of regulation.

Flies, how many times do you need to be corrected? Lebron played all but 90 second of the 4th quarter and it. He started the 4th and rested 90 second in the middle of it.

What about the missed layup right before that horrible shot?