Messi

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AustinAg2012
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aTmAg said:

AustinAg2012 said:

To each their own. Raul used the outside of his foot to get that chip effect. Much more difficult than Messi's. And the fact that neither nicked the post means better touch/placement in my mind. Granted, only one of the three allowed the GK to get a hand. All are amazing, so no complaints here.
The others had more room to work with. Messi had a couple feet tops.

I assume you are a Ronaldo fan boy?
If anything, Raul had the least amount of room of the three, especially when you see the reverse angles. All three goals are incredible. Not sure what your deal is, but if you think Messi's was the best, good on you and congratulations. Carry on...
aTmAg
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AustinAg2012 said:

aTmAg said:

AustinAg2012 said:

To each their own. Raul used the outside of his foot to get that chip effect. Much more difficult than Messi's. And the fact that neither nicked the post means better touch/placement in my mind. Granted, only one of the three allowed the GK to get a hand. All are amazing, so no complaints here.
The others had more room to work with. Messi had a couple feet tops.

I assume you are a Ronaldo fan boy?
If anything, Raul had the least amount of room of the three, especially when you see the reverse angles. All three goals are incredible. Not sure what your deal is, but if you think Messi's was the best, good on you and congratulations. Carry on...
The goalie in Raul's was standing on 6 yard line. The goalie in Messi was standing maybe 2 yards in front of the goal line. No doubt Messi had less room for error.

(Ronaldo is not as great as Messi, BTW)
Truvada_for_prep
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Ronaldo has more hardware and performs when it counts lol you Messi fan boys .
jeffk
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He's pretty pretty good.
aTmAg
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Louis botha said:

Ronaldo has more hardware and performs when it counts lol you Messi fan boys .
Such as when Portugal won the 2016 Euro final while Ronaldo cried on the sidelines? Portugal is good without Ronaldo. Argentina is crap without Messi. Messi has been carrying them for about a decade.

You can tell who is better by the fact that when people talk about Ronaldo, they compare him to Messi. When they talk about Messi they compare him to Maradona, Pele, Cruyff, etc. Hell even Ronaldo himself banned the word "Messi" from his household and is fixated on chasing Messi's legacy.
AustinAg2012
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aTmAg said:

AustinAg2012 said:

aTmAg said:

AustinAg2012 said:

To each their own. Raul used the outside of his foot to get that chip effect. Much more difficult than Messi's. And the fact that neither nicked the post means better touch/placement in my mind. Granted, only one of the three allowed the GK to get a hand. All are amazing, so no complaints here.
The others had more room to work with. Messi had a couple feet tops.

I assume you are a Ronaldo fan boy?
If anything, Raul had the least amount of room of the three, especially when you see the reverse angles. All three goals are incredible. Not sure what your deal is, but if you think Messi's was the best, good on you and congratulations. Carry on...
The goalie in Raul's was standing on 6 yard line. The goalie in Messi was standing maybe 2 yards in front of the goal line. No doubt Messi had less room for error.

(Ronaldo is not as great as Messi, BTW)
Cool, man. Agree to disagree.

And you're the one who brought Ronaldo into the conversation. Obsessed, much? BAHAHAHA! You're doing a super-duper job sucking off Messi, though. It's obviously something you cherish. Again, carry on...
aTmAg
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I'd call Ronaldo fans who jump in on Messi threads to defend Ronaldo's honor (by downplaying Messi's superiority) obsessed. Almost as obsessed as Ronaldo is of getting out from under Messi's shadow.

And frankly I don't get the Messi hate by anybody. Not only is he the soccer GOAT, but he's a great teammate, is humble, and seems like a generally a decent dude.

Even Real Madrid/Juventus fans should recognize the obvious. I hate the Patriots and was more of a fan of Peyton Manning than Tom Brady, but I will admit that Brady is the QB GOAT. I still enjoyed Manning's greatness, even if he wasn't THE greatest.
wangus12
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aTmAg said:

Louis botha said:

Ronaldo has more hardware and performs when it counts lol you Messi fan boys .
Such as when Portugal won the 2016 Euro final while Ronaldo cried on the sidelines? Portugal is good without Ronaldo. Argentina is crap without Messi. Messi has been carrying them for about a decade.

You can tell who is better by the fact that when people talk about Ronaldo, they compare him to Messi. When they talk about Messi they compare him to Maradona, Pele, Cruyff, etc. Hell even Ronaldo himself banned the word "Messi" from his household and is fixated on chasing Messi's legacy.
People compare Messi to Ronaldo and vice versa all the time. They both get compared to the legends from 30-50 years ago. And Portugal aren't very good without Ronaldo. He scored/assisted 6 of their 9 goals in the Euros. France were all over them in the finals until ET when they scored on a counter. Not to mention they almost always have to qualify via the UEFA playoffs because they never win their group (except for 2018).

Both of them are on the same tier of greatness and in my opinion Messi edges Ronaldo out, but lets not act like there is some massive discrepancy between them.
snowdog90
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Louis botha said:

Ronaldo has more hardware and performs when it counts lol you Messi fan boys .


Messi has won more titles than Ronaldo so I don't see how your statement is remotely factual.

Messi's world cup finals loss to an amazing German team is much more impressive than Ronaldo sitting on the bench watching his team beat France.
AGC
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aTmAg said:

I'd call Ronaldo fans who jump in on Messi threads to defend Ronaldo's honor (by downplaying Messi's superiority) obsessed. Almost as obsessed as Ronaldo is of getting out from under Messi's shadow.

And frankly I don't get the Messi hate by anybody. Not only is he the soccer GOAT, but he's a great teammate, is humble, and seems like a generally a decent dude.

Even Real Madrid/Juventus fans should recognize the obvious. I hate the Patriots and was more of a fan of Peyton Manning than Tom Brady, but I will admit that Brady is the QB GOAT. I still enjoyed Manning's greatness, even if he wasn't THE greatest.


What just happened? Are you dyslexic? He said Raul, not Ronaldo. Dear lord that's a lot of white knighting for another grown man.
aTmAg
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wangus12 said:

aTmAg said:

Louis botha said:

Ronaldo has more hardware and performs when it counts lol you Messi fan boys .
Such as when Portugal won the 2016 Euro final while Ronaldo cried on the sidelines? Portugal is good without Ronaldo. Argentina is crap without Messi. Messi has been carrying them for about a decade.

You can tell who is better by the fact that when people talk about Ronaldo, they compare him to Messi. When they talk about Messi they compare him to Maradona, Pele, Cruyff, etc. Hell even Ronaldo himself banned the word "Messi" from his household and is fixated on chasing Messi's legacy.
People compare Messi to Ronaldo and vice versa all the time. They both get compared to the legends from 30-50 years ago. And Portugal aren't very good without Ronaldo. He scored/assisted 6 of their 9 goals in the Euros. France were all over them in the finals until ET when they scored on a counter. Not to mention they almost always have to qualify via the UEFA playoffs because they never win their group (except for 2018).

Both of them are on the same tier of greatness and in my opinion Messi edges Ronaldo out, but lets not act like there is some massive discrepancy between them.
I cannot think of a time where I have seen Ronaldo alone compared to the greats of all time. Yet I have seen that of Messi plenty of times. Whenever I see Ronaldo compared to historical greats it's usually with Messi (such as "how lucky we are to have Messi and Ronaldo playing in the same generation")

Without Messi, Argentina lost to Spain 1-6 and would have never qualified for the WC. With Messi, they not only qualify (thanks to Messi singlehandedly), they get past the group stage and lose to the eventual WC winner by 1 point. And, BTW, the French's coach said in an interview afterwards that a central part of his strategy was in having 2 guys mark Messi and also keeping Messi's teammates from passing him the ball in the first place. One would hope that the rest of Argentina would be able capitalize when the opponent spends so much energy stopping one player, but alas the rest of the team always seems to suck for the NT (as 1-6 would indicate). I think that if Messi played for Spain or Portugal (without Ronaldo) he'd have multiple WCs trophies by now.

Regarding the discrepancy it depends on what factors you consider important. If it's all about scoring goals, then they are pretty even. But if it's about overall play making ability, giving the team chances, etc. I think the discrepancy is quite a bit larger. Don't get me wrong, I think the discrepancy between Messi and Ronaldo is less than Ronaldo and #3 (and I'm not even sure who I'd say that is), but I think that he has a level of "savantness" that Ronaldo could never hope to reach, no matter how hard he works (and he works his ass off).
texagbeliever
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It is pretty silly to say Ronaldo doesnt impact games outside of scoring. You dont think teams game plan to neutralize Ronaldo. Heck as a striker or winger it is much easier for teams to develop game plans to neutralize him because he doesnt float around like messi. And yet Ronaldo still scores as many goals. Teams play deeper backlines which makes it easier for his side to possess and counter.

People talk about Argentina's WC finals run but they advanced largely on defense and pks. It wasnt like messi dominated with goals or assists.
Truvada_for_prep
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Even his own countrymen say Messi isnt' the best. Ill take Mardona's take on messi over some goons on Texags.
snowdog90
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Louis botha said:

Even his own countrymen say Messi isnt' the best. Ill take Mardona's take on messi over some goons on Texags.


So it's not about hardware, it's whatever Maradona says? Let's see what he says on this video.

Lampard and Raul are also in this video.

who?mikejones
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Louis botha said:

Even his own countrymen say Messi isnt' the best. Ill take Mardona's take on messi over some goons on Texags.


Of course because he hasnt been on a wc championship squad. They are bitter about it.

Messi is the best of this generation. Maybe ever. It's not close.
AGC
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While we're talking supporting cast, who would you rather have:
-Xavi & Iniesta, who you've played with since your la masia days
-The revolving door of Ronaldo's midfield.

If we're talking greatness let's not act like spain's golden generation wasn't there helping Messi every step of the way. What he achieves now at the club level is far more impressive. What Ronaldo achieved through various coaches and teammates was more impressive previously.
Truvada_for_prep
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When I said titles I meant champions league titles no one cares about copa del Rey's and la liga titles .

HTH
snowdog90
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Louis botha said:

When I said titles I meant champions league titles no one cares about copa del Rey's and la liga titles .

HTH


Well, evidently, Ronaldo didn't care much about la liga either, as he only won 2 la liga titles. Messi has won 9, about to be 10.

But hey, who cares about being the champion of arguably the best league in Europe?
jeffk
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I think I've listened to this conversation about 100 times over the years while coaching.
Gordo14
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Messi is clearly the best of all time. Ronaldo is clearly the 2nd best of all time. That's just it.

I like how the Ronaldo fans talk about it as if team awards are all that matter until Ronaldo's team loses and it's the midfield is in disarray or whatever. I also think it's funny the comment that Argentina advanced to the world cup finals on defense and pks... You mean like Portugal?

Anyways, it's clear Real Madrid had the most dominant run ever in the Champions League. And Ronaldo is the 2nd best of all-time. Both are true statements. Messi scores more goals per minute (with much fewer pk goals), has significantly more assists per minute, and is a much more integral part of the build up than Ronaldo is. Ronaldo is better at headers and pks than Messi. Messi is flat out dominating this year at 31. It's Messi's world and Ronaldo knows it.
aTmAg
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texagbeliever said:

It is pretty silly to say Ronaldo doesnt impact games outside of scoring. You dont think teams game plan to neutralize Ronaldo. Heck as a striker or winger it is much easier for teams to develop game plans to neutralize him because he doesnt float around like messi. And yet Ronaldo still scores as many goals. Teams play deeper backlines which makes it easier for his side to possess and counter.

People talk about Argentina's WC finals run but they advanced largely on defense and pks. It wasnt like messi dominated with goals or assists.
I never said Ronaldo doesn't impact the game outside of scoring. Just that he doesn't impact is as much a Messi. Ronaldo is a great player, I'm not denying that. Just that Messi is greater.

And the coach of France stated that they basically dedicated 4 guys to stop Messi. Even if he didn't get any goals or assists, that is still a huge impact where the other players should have been able to capitalize on, but didn't. Even so, Messi still got 2 assists in that game besides having all that adversity. The difference between Argentina and Barcelona is that the rest of Barcelona is good enough to score 6 on you if you dedicate 4 of your 11 players to stopping Messi alone, so opponents can't do that.
aTmAg
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Louis botha said:

Even his own countrymen say Messi isnt' the best. Ill take Mardona's take on messi over some goons on Texags.
Maradona is the last guy's opinion you should take. Messi is the guy who will take his crown. Of course a self centered dude like Maradona would not like that.

And Argentineans are speaking from emotion. Many of them are pissed that he left Argentina young to play in Europe. That is he a traitor for doing that. And besides, a lot of them have come around. They now recognize that the team is total crap without him. That he's been dealt a bad hand as far as teammates and coaches go.
aTmAg
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AGC said:

While we're talking supporting cast, who would you rather have:
-Xavi & Iniesta, who you've played with since your la masia days
-The revolving door of Ronaldo's midfield.

If we're talking greatness let's not act like spain's golden generation wasn't there helping Messi every step of the way. What he achieves now at the club level is far more impressive. What Ronaldo achieved through various coaches and teammates was more impressive previously.
Real Madrid has the resources to always have top notch players. We aren't talking about Barry Sanders at Detroit or anything. Swap Messi and Ronaldo and I think Real Madrid would have most of those La Liga titles, not Barcelona. There is no way to know for sure.
aTmAg
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Gordo14 said:

Messi is clearly the best of all time. Ronaldo is clearly the 2nd best of all time. That's just it.

I like how the Ronaldo fans talk about it as if team awards are all that matter until Ronaldo's team loses and it's the midfield is in disarray or whatever. I also think it's funny the comment that Argentina advanced to the world cup finals on defense and pks... You mean like Portugal?

Anyways, it's clear Real Madrid had the most dominant run ever in the Champions League. And Ronaldo is the 2nd best of all-time. Both are true statements. Messi scores more goals per minute (with much fewer pk goals), has significantly more assists per minute, and is a much more integral part of the build up than Ronaldo is. Ronaldo is better at headers and pks than Messi. Messi is flat out dominating this year at 31. It's Messi's world and Ronaldo knows it.
No to mention, that Real Madrid was concentrating on winning the Champion's League once La Liga was basically out of reach. For example, last year Barcelona was trying to go through La Liga undefeated for the first time in history. So they were playing their starters more minutes than they otherwise would have for many of those games. Meanwhile Real Madrid ended up in 3rd place 6 games behind Barcelona because they blew off La Liga. (And BTW, Barcelona lost one La Liga game last year to 15th place Levante because they decided the game was a gimmie even without Messi and he didn't even fly with the team.)
AGC
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aTmAg said:

AGC said:

While we're talking supporting cast, who would you rather have:
-Xavi & Iniesta, who you've played with since your la masia days
-The revolving door of Ronaldo's midfield.

If we're talking greatness let's not act like spain's golden generation wasn't there helping Messi every step of the way. What he achieves now at the club level is far more impressive. What Ronaldo achieved through various coaches and teammates was more impressive previously.
Real Madrid has the resources to always have top notch players. We aren't talking about Barry Sanders at Detroit or anything. Swap Messi and Ronaldo and I think Real Madrid would have most of those La Liga titles, not Barcelona. There is no way to know for sure.


You can't buy chemistry, continuity, and a system of play that's been in place for years with World Cup winning talent like Messi had. The engine of tiki taka and Spain was barcelona's midfield and they showed you could win with it without a striker and without Messi in the World Cup. It's an intangible that you cast aside too flippantly.

He's a phenomenal player and if Spain had anyone with his talent they would have had fewer 1-0 victories for sure, but it's the combination that unleashed much of his talent in his early career.
aTmAg
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AG
AGC said:

aTmAg said:

AGC said:

While we're talking supporting cast, who would you rather have:
-Xavi & Iniesta, who you've played with since your la masia days
-The revolving door of Ronaldo's midfield.

If we're talking greatness let's not act like spain's golden generation wasn't there helping Messi every step of the way. What he achieves now at the club level is far more impressive. What Ronaldo achieved through various coaches and teammates was more impressive previously.
Real Madrid has the resources to always have top notch players. We aren't talking about Barry Sanders at Detroit or anything. Swap Messi and Ronaldo and I think Real Madrid would have most of those La Liga titles, not Barcelona. There is no way to know for sure.


You can't buy chemistry, continuity, and a system of play that's been in place for years with World Cup winning talent like Messi had. The engine of tiki taka and Spain was barcelona's midfield and they showed you could win with it without a striker and without Messi in the World Cup. It's an intangible that you cast aside too flippantly.

He's a phenomenal player and if Spain had anyone with his talent they would have had fewer 1-0 victories for sure, but it's the combination that unleashed much of his talent in his early career.
I agree that Barca has had a better system of developing young players. But being able to play well with a team is part of being a great soccer player. To me this is a feather in Messi's cap. Xavi, Iniesta, etc. are gone now, but Messi is still raising the level of his team to win La Liga year after year. Their only weakness, IMO, is the defense.
Truvada_for_prep
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snowdog90 said:

Louis botha said:

When I said titles I meant champions league titles no one cares about copa del Rey's and la liga titles .

HTH


Well, evidently, Ronaldo didn't care much about la liga either, as he only won 2 la liga titles. Messi has won 9, about to be 10.

But hey, who cares about being the champion of arguably the best league in Europe?
So than on the inverse Messi doesn't care about winning the CL? CL titles are way more prestigious than La Liga titles which is not ever close to the best league in Europe. In addition, Rolando has won League titles in all 3 major European leagues especially the Premier league which is the best in Europe.


I don't think Messi has even won a Copa America has he the equivalent of a Euro title?
AGC
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AG
aTmAg said:

AGC said:

aTmAg said:

AGC said:

While we're talking supporting cast, who would you rather have:
-Xavi & Iniesta, who you've played with since your la masia days
-The revolving door of Ronaldo's midfield.

If we're talking greatness let's not act like spain's golden generation wasn't there helping Messi every step of the way. What he achieves now at the club level is far more impressive. What Ronaldo achieved through various coaches and teammates was more impressive previously.
Real Madrid has the resources to always have top notch players. We aren't talking about Barry Sanders at Detroit or anything. Swap Messi and Ronaldo and I think Real Madrid would have most of those La Liga titles, not Barcelona. There is no way to know for sure.


You can't buy chemistry, continuity, and a system of play that's been in place for years with World Cup winning talent like Messi had. The engine of tiki taka and Spain was barcelona's midfield and they showed you could win with it without a striker and without Messi in the World Cup. It's an intangible that you cast aside too flippantly.

He's a phenomenal player and if Spain had anyone with his talent they would have had fewer 1-0 victories for sure, but it's the combination that unleashed much of his talent in his early career.
I agree that Barca has had a better system of developing young players. But being able to play well with a team is part of being a great soccer player. To me this is a feather in Messi's cap. Xavi, Iniesta, etc. are gone now, but Messi is still raising the level of his team to win La Liga year after year. Their only weakness, IMO, is the defense.


Messi now is like Ronaldo was in his time at RM. Heavy dependence for winning what they value. Ronaldo put RM on his back in the CL in the same way. There's not much difference now so it actually doesn't support your argument.

Ronaldo didn't have the possession heavy offense for opportunities the way Messi has for most of his career. The numbers would be more interesting and pertinent to compare post Xavi and Iniesta as both have had world class support without the homegrown chemistry and system.
AGC
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AG
In the last 5 years la Liga has had at least once, 3 of 4 semi-finalists in the CL. Is that really not the best league that year? Also the run of Atltico, Real, and Barca In then CL championship has been impressive. When was the last time the PL did something similar?
snowdog90
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Louis botha said:

snowdog90 said:

Louis botha said:

When I said titles I meant champions league titles no one cares about copa del Rey's and la liga titles .

HTH


Well, evidently, Ronaldo didn't care much about la liga either, as he only won 2 la liga titles. Messi has won 9, about to be 10.

But hey, who cares about being the champion of arguably the best league in Europe?
So than on the inverse Messi doesn't care about winning the CL? CL titles are way more prestigious than La Liga titles which is not ever close to the best league in Europe. In addition, Rolando has won League titles in all 3 major European leagues especially the Premier league which is the best in Europe.


I don't think Messi has even won a Copa America has he the equivalent of a Euro title?


Great argument. Messi's only won 4 CL titles to Ronaldo's 5. Messi must not care about the CL.

Premier League is maybe the deeper league but weaker at the top. Barca, RM and AM have been brawling for la liga for years, with Messi leading Barca to victory most of those years.

As I said before, Messi led Argentina to the WC final where they lost to a much better German team. Somehow you're crediting ronaldo with European Championship when his team beat France without him. They played better without him too, probably relieved they didn't have to put up with his *****ing and whining and hand gestures and blaming.

Whatever. Have Ronaldo as your hero. I'm happy in the knowledge that Messi is better and that Messi won't have multiple women accuse him of rape.
AGC
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AG
Yeah, he just picks fights with people after the game is over in the parking lot in front of their family. Quality guy. And it wasn't even Pepe or Ramos at that, he picked Arbeloa.
Truvada_for_prep
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snowdog90 said:

Louis botha said:

snowdog90 said:

Louis botha said:

When I said titles I meant champions league titles no one cares about copa del Rey's and la liga titles .

HTH


Well, evidently, Ronaldo didn't care much about la liga either, as he only won 2 la liga titles. Messi has won 9, about to be 10.

But hey, who cares about being the champion of arguably the best league in Europe?
So than on the inverse Messi doesn't care about winning the CL? CL titles are way more prestigious than La Liga titles which is not ever close to the best league in Europe. In addition, Rolando has won League titles in all 3 major European leagues especially the Premier league which is the best in Europe.


I don't think Messi has even won a Copa America has he the equivalent of a Euro title?


Great argument. Messi's only won 4 CL titles to Ronaldo's 5. Messi must not care about the CL.

Premier League is maybe the deeper league but weaker at the top. Barca, RM and AM have been brawling for la liga for years, with Messi leading Barca to victory most of those years.

As I said before, Messi led Argentina to the WC final where they lost to a much better German team. Somehow you're crediting ronaldo with European Championship when his team beat France without him. They played better without him too, probably relieved they didn't have to put up with his *****ing and whining and hand gestures and blaming.

Whatever. Have Ronaldo as your hero. I'm happy in the knowledge that Messi is better and that Messi won't have multiple women accuse him of rape.
Your argument literally makes no sense Rolando has won titles in the top 3 leagues in Europe and has more CL wins to his name. Also, did Rolando not play any part in getting Portugal to the final and win something your boy messi has never done for Argentina and never will. You messi fan boys are the worst..Any chance you were the guy who ran on the field when messi played in Houston last? lol
Truvada_for_prep
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AGC said:

In the last 5 years la Liga has had at least once, 3 of 4 semi-finalists in the CL. Is that really not the best league that year? Also the run of Atltico, Real, and Barca In then CL championship has been impressive. When was the last time the PL did something similar?
Its pretty much universal knowledge that the Premier League is the best in the world has been for awhile.
snowdog90
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Universal knowledge is that Messi is the greatest ever. Statistically, he is the best scorer, best passer, and best dribbler in Europe this season. He is incredible despite being called too small by everyone all his life. He is humble and professional and classy.

Your boy is whiny, arrogant and a probable rapist. Good for you. When they are both gone from the sport, it won't even be a question. Messi will have more goals, more assists, more championships.

Messi is so classy and humble, in fact, that he recently talked about how great Ronaldo was and called him the best.

Ronaldo is awesome. Messi is the greatest player of any sport I've ever seen. Michael Jordan is close to that and I never saw Babe Ruth, but he is probably close as well.
aTmAg
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AG
Louis botha said:

AGC said:

In the last 5 years la Liga has had at least once, 3 of 4 semi-finalists in the CL. Is that really not the best league that year? Also the run of Atltico, Real, and Barca In then CL championship has been impressive. When was the last time the PL did something similar?
Its pretty much universal knowledge that the Premier League is the best in the world has been for awhile.
Shows how good Barca and RM must be since they routinely trounce PL teams.
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