Nine pages. Still no good reason.

excellent.

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No slavery, no civil war, bottom line. People don't kill each for years in the hundreds of thousands over tariffs and constitutional theory.

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That is quite possibly the most stupid thing that I ever read in my life.

Second sentence yes.

First sentence is true though.

Or was CSA VP lying about why they seceded? Was Texas lying in its declaration of secession?

BoCH:

"Actually I did give at least one. Fogel and Engerman, their book Time on the Cross. . . ."

Your "source" for how whites felt about blacks at the time of secession is an economic book written in the 1970s? Again, why wouldn't I just look to the contemporaneous written documentation?

". . .but I hope some of you now know the difference between the Emancipation Proclamation and the 13th Amendment."

Many people know it. TexAgs probably isn't the appropriate place for you to flex your intellectual superiority over idiots, and your egotistical need to show off how smart you are has absolutely nothing to do with the matter at hand: should Dixie be played at football game half time shows. You went off on some insane tangent about economic theory that nobody asked for, nor cares about. We get it, you once read a book on economics that exposed you to some interesting "facts" about southern slavery, none of which are germane to this discussion.

You're like that Harvard jerk in Good Will Hunting.

I feel embarrassed for BillonCapitolHill.

Idiots

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That is exactly why the American Revolution occurred. The South saw itself as the true continuation of that legacy.

There is absolutely no denying that the vast majority of Northerners(including Lincoln) believed in the inferiority of Africans and had no desire for a society with them as equals. So, the question is:

Would people kill each other for years in the hundreds of thousands over animals (what they would've considered slaves)?

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Hundreds of thousands of Americans didn't kill each other in the Revolutionary War. The causes for the American Revolution transcended mere tarriffs and consitutional theory and reached into the everyday economic life of Americans: Parliament's attempts to curb American industry and trade, restrict currency, house soldiers in American homes, force wealth to flow out of the colonies and to Britain, and rule a country located 3,000 miles away about which it knew virtually nothing were paramount. To say that things like the Stamp Act and Townshend Acts were the cause is to confuse the spark with the fuel.

Believing in the inferiority of Africans isn't the same as thinking slavery is acceptable. We know that the North didn't see slavery as acceptable since it had been prohibitied in those states; if they had seen slavery as a positive, or even merely neutral, they wouldn't have outlawed it. So, it's hard to say that most of the North hadn't taken a stand on slavery, or that it ambivalent about it--it had taken a very clear stand on it.

Of course, none of this cancels out the larger point that without slavery, there is no Civil War.

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If we are going to decide whether or not our band should play a song so closely associated with the Confederacy, we first must decide if it is worth honoring. That involves debunking the long perpetuated myth that the war was fought for the benefit of slaves. Once that is established it becomes apparent that the motivations of secession were not racism and hatred, but the freedom and self-government espoused in the Constitution.

Thus, if truth is our guide, the Confederacy should be celebrated by the playing of Dixie. This won't happen because people don't know why the war was fought. The victors write history.

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This is the most misguided, cobbled-together statement I have ever read.

I am not about to sit here and espouse the myth that the North wore the white hats and fought the Civil War solely to free the slaves. Most educated people don't believe that--it's time to stop painting all anti-Dixie culture individuals with the same brush under the guise of "educating them." Very condescending.

I agree with you that "the freedom and self government espoused in the Constitution" is the baseline reason as to why the war was fought. But we cannot stop there. We must ask the questions: The freedeom TO DO WHAT? Self government IN WHAT MANNER?

Bottom line is, the South and North did not see eye to eye economically--but only the South's economy was predicated on "African slavery." Yes, Southerners were attempting to protect their way of life, but leaving that statement as is does not reflect the contempt that they had for blacks in general. They regarded them as a dumb, inferior race, and treated them as such.

If racism were not a significant issue as to why the war was fought, then why was there so much turmoil over granting blacks equal rights and regard in Southern society post-Civil War? Attempting to paint a rosy picture of white southerners merely fighting for freedom overlooks the ugly truth that the freedom they were fighting for was the right to run their economy on the backs of the "inferior" African slaves--a practice that would have continued unfettered had the North not stepped in (reasons notwithstanding).

By the way, the North doesn't get off easy here, either. They had significant racial issues as well. But lets not delude ourselves into believing that the South was this utopia for race relations until the big bad North interfered.

Errrr, let us drop the whole thread.

In light of recent events in the upper mid-West perhaps the FTAB, as an added feature, should play...
"On Wisconsin."

Yeah, let's drop it. We have a bevy of songs that haven't seemed to change in 50 years. Why change it now? We don't need to add squat to prove we belong with the other schools. In fact, the knoxville area, like much of Appalachia, was a very pro union area during the civil war. This isn't 160 years ago. The country has moved on.

[This message has been edited by tiger08 (edited 6/14/2012 9:39a).]

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". . .but I hope some of you now know the difference between the Emancipation Proclamation and the 13th Amendment."

Many people know it. TexAgs probably isn't the appropriate place for you to flex your intellectual superiority over idiots, and your egotistical need to show off how smart you are has absolutely nothing to do with the matter at hand:

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I guess you missed the part of the discussion where a poster claimed the EP freed the slaves.

And Marathon, you've posted numerous times to this thread and contributed nothing. Maybe its time to back away from the keyboard.

This discussion has morphed, and might be better handled on the history board.

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I guess you missed the part of the discussion where a poster claimed the EP freed the slaves.

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I didn't miss it, I just don't think one person's alleged misconceived notion about the emancipation proclamation freeing slaves (which is only partially false) is an invitation for you to ramble on incoherently about caloric intakes in 19th century West Virginia and Kentucky. This was a thread about whether Dixie should or shouldn't be played at half-time, which you wanted to use as a monument to your own intellectual superiority over economic systems in the 1860s, because you once read a book. That not deplorable enough, you try to cloak your masturbatory intellectual smugness in just trying to edumecate us dumb folks who don't understand the difference between the EP and the 13th Amendment, without addressing what ON EARTH THAT HAS TO DO WITH WHETHER DIXIE SHOULD PLAY AT FOOTBALL GAMES.

All of that aside, your bizarre conclusions about the motivations of whites at the time of secession is just wrong based on the contemporaneous written documentation. The presumed inferiority of blacks was fundamental to human slavery, which is why it was so critical to secession (as secession was based on the preservation of slavery). That's what the people who seceded said.

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West Virginia and Kentucky

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WV and VA. Your comprehension cant be that bad, can it?

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without addressing what ON EARTH THAT HAS TO DO WITH WHETHER DIXIE SHOULD PLAY AT FOOTBALL GAMES

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You must be new here. This is TAs. Threads dont go longer than 3 pages unless peripheral discussions occur.

Terminator Linkage ?

And, while we're at it, we may as well come to the MOST remote, ridiculous future FTAB musical selection assumption.

Based on two related facts:

(1) Mahroooon coolers long banished from Kyle, in exchange for the somewhat inconsequential, and now generally accepted, Ugly Orange coolers (yea, those sitting right over there next to a Maroooon Fightin' Texas Aggie Team);

(2) and, 2012 Texas A&M joining the SEC.

Could ah mentally disturbed FTAB director possibly select the old adversarial ditty: "Texas Fight" ? _______________________________________________

NOW moderators, may we please have the termination of this thread ?

This ought to do it:

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And Marathon, you've posted numerous times to this thread and contributed nothing.

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I agree. However, you have used considerably more words and made the same contribution that I have.

"Texas Fight" ?

Actually Bill used 1840 West Virginia in his example even though West Virginia didn't become a state till 1863.

Idiots

"See, the sad thing about a guy like you is in 50 years you're gonna staht doin some thinkin on your own and you're gonna come up with the fact that there are two certaintees in life. One, don't do that. And Two, you dropped a hundred and fifty grand on a frackin education you coulda got for a dollah fifty in late charges at the public library."

Link, por favor?

You used a lot of words to say a lot of nothing. That blacks fought on both sides of the war is very common knowledge.

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these facts don't negate your points about the Confederate Constitution(s)

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So, you admit that a basis for the South's secession was that blacks were deemed an inferior race (their participation on the rebel side of the war notwithstanding, btw)?

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you must agree that they dispel the idea that the Confederacy existed because of slavery!

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The economy of the confederacy absolutely depended upon slavery. Therefore when the economic balance of the South was threatened by the majority anti-slavery Northern stance, a war broke out. You're mistaken.

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At the very least it must be admitted that white and black Southerners had a common goal uniting them
that was perceived to be greater than the desire for (or desire to be free from) slavery

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SOME Southern whites and blacks had common goals--please refrain from these blanket statements that attempt to frame black Southerners as content with remaining enslaved. That's beyond offensive, imho. Folks fought on both sides of the war for a variety of reasons, but to automatically assume that every black southerner who fought on the side of the south was happy with the status quo is ludicrous.

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I believe that Southern whites AND blacks should be proud of their heritage.

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I'm proud to have been born in Alabama and raised in Texas. I'm NOT proud of either state's participation on the losing side of the Civil War.

Slavery was a terrible, terrible thing because it denied men of their liberty. I do not believe that slavery itself played a huge part in the Civil War.

That said, where would African-Americans be today had slavery not existed?

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That said, where would African-Americans be today had slavery not existed?

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They wouldn't be former slaves or the descendants of slaves. Which would have been pretty neat.

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That said, where would African-Americans be today had slavery not existed?

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They wouldn't be former slaves or the descendants of slaves. Which would have been pretty neat.

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Would they be better off? Africa doesn't quite offer the same quality of life...

[This message has been edited by Seersucker ag 2011 (edited 6/14/2012 3:10p).]

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Would they be better off? Africa doesn't quitw offer the same quality of life...

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Probably better to let each individual choose, instead of enslaving them.

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tbirdspur, you haven't read anything that I've written and you are unjustifiably belligerent. I am not going to continue to engage someone who refuses to read or think critically. I have been taking you seriously, please do me the same courtesy.

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He was in the corps. He slept through history class

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Would they be better off? Africa doesn't quitw offer the same quality of life...

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Probably better to let each individual choose, instead of enslaving them.

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That's fair enough, but given the fact that it's between Africa and America, I don't really see how anyone can be that upset by the end result. We should be able to discuss the civil war and slavery calmly and intelligently rather than being blinded by emotion.

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I don't really see how anyone can be that upset by the end result.

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Probably because there are other ways to get to America than by becoming a chattel an forced to engage in uncompensated labor against your will.

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The Truth isn't simple. It can't be fit into a cracker jack box. The list of facts above is intended to dispel erroneous preconceived notions, you can skip it if you want. Beyond that, everything that I have said is necessary.

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I agree that nuance is good. However, your posts are really nuanced, they seem to be copied-and-pasted ramblings.

If you could summarize, that might be helpful to others in your audience. Clearly, you're not winning any converts.

I will try and clear up some incorrect information. Ole Miss still plays Dixie (often and with multi versions). We have Dixie Fanfare (our bands intro song), two different first down Dixie cheers, regular Dixie (played after scores or turnovers, and when the band first enters the stadium) and our new pregame song which still has a slow version of Dixie in it. What we stopped playing was "from Dixie with Love" because our fans would chant "the south shall rise again" during the battle hymn section. Word on the street is that it will make a slow comeback as early as this year in the grove and next year back on the field. The school wants a new chant to takes its place before its heard on tv again. Just YouTube ole miss band for any of these versions. Almost all of them can be heard at the Grove pep rally before the game as well.

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given the fact that it's between Africa and America, I don't really see how anyone can be that upset by the end result.

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The hubris of this statement is shocking in the highest degree. I'll be the first to say I'm proud to be an American, but to intimate that black people should not be upset about the manner in which that came about is utter folly.

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We should be able to discuss the civil war and slavery calmly and intelligently rather than being blinded by emotion

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Individual liberty is an emotionally charged issue. Acknowledging that fact is not blindness, nor does it belie a lack of calm. Rather, it lends credence to the passions over which a bitter war was fought in the first place. It is a far graver mistake to attempt to assuage the evils of slavery and racial oppression under the thin, self-aggrandizing guise of "intelligence."