neAGle96 said:

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Anagrammatic Nudist said:

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neAGle96 said:

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Having grown up in the area in the 70's and 80's , and my parents still living in the same house in the area since the late 60's, the current condition of the area is sad.

While Metro isn't solely responsible for the areas deterioration, to say it was inconsequential is naive.

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Again, the METRO transit route down FM 1960 was reactive, not proactive. Incredibly short-sided development decisions and poor access management design by TxDOT are squarely to blame, but it's much easier to just blame it on a bus and the people riding it.

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Again, that not accurate.

I recall when 1960 was a 2 lane road. There has always been poor access issues, but Chanpions was one of Houston's nicest suburbs in the70's through mid 80's. It was an even nicer area before Kuykendahl connected to 45, and you had to access 45 by driving East down 1960 to 45 intersection.

The crime along 1960, the transient business (after original retailers moved) among 1960 (metro lines) are directly related to the area's deteriorating. To say otherwise is just not accurate

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Crime, high-density development, lack of TxDOT access management, and further suburb appeal were all in place before the METRO route. A singular, reactive, bus line does not cause the entire demise of a region. And to think it does is beyond naive.

Diggity said:

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or it's just the life cycle of a busy road that became dominated by strip centers.

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This is insanely more accurate than the typical, group-think, public transit blame.

But again, it's easy to hate on buses and the people that ride them, so this notion has gone unchallenged for many, many years.

Anagrammatic Nudist said:

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Diggity said:

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or it's just the life cycle of a busy road that became dominated by strip centers.

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This is insanely more accurate than the typical, group-think, public transit blame.

But again, it's easy to hate on buses and the people that ride them, so this notion has gone unchallenged for many, many years.

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Perhaps, but take a closer look at why retailers moved out. It certainly is a bigger factor than the lack of access design by TXDOT excuse you posted previously as the reason for the decline in the area.

It seems you weren't familiar with the area in the 70's. Back then the area was one of the nicest suburbs in greater Houston and it lacked easy access to 45, 249 wasn't a highway, and the beltway didnt exist. Even when they expanded 1960 to a 4 lane road in the mid 70's, it often took 45 minutes to an hour to get to Champions from I45 between 5 and 6:30PM. Access to major thoroughfares was worse when the area was nice. The area has never had better access to major thoroughfares than it currently has.

The decline of the strip centers played a big roll in the decay of the area. Most of the tenants in those initial strip centers were an asset to the community. Many of the high end retailers moved out because vagrants who hanged around the bus stops began loitering in their establishments. Increasing crime and pollution also played a role. A lot of that can also be directly attributed to the local Metro stops. Obviously not everyone who rides metro is bad, and a lot of crime around the stops probably isnt even from the bus passengers, but it's naive to think there isnt an increased rate of drug activity and other crimes around the bus stops. Take a look at the litter around the area, and then look at the trash, beer bottles etc, around a metro stop. Its easy to see the metro stops are worse.

Like the local bus stops, the Park n Ride centers (1960 E and kuykendahl) began having increasing crime rates shortly after they were established. Even after Metro began staffing full time security at the Park n Rides, crimes such as theft, vandalism, drug activity are higher than the surrounding areas.

I've studied this corridor and its development history probably more than anyone alive. This is a large part of my career. My wife and her family lived in Champion Forest since the early 1980s. My first home with my wife was in Champion Forest more than twenty years ago.

TxDOT allowing every strip center, apartment complex, gas station, etc, their own driveway, and all of the development mistakes through the years is the underlying cause. It's not "an excuse". It's a fact. It is the very model of poor urban planning and design, and was destined to fail from inception.

The bus line down 1960 was installed after most of the development infrastructure, high-density development, and retail strip center Generica had already been built. It was reactive, not proactive.

Are there problems with garbage, etc? Of course. This exists anywhere garbage cans exist, at any part of the region. It's not isolated to METRO.

Where will they erect the Rosa Parks statue? At Cypress Station?

Why did bus stops ruin this particular area and not other parts of town?

Are there more bus stops per capita than other areas? Honestly curious.

If that corner could talk

Miller's outpost
The casa
Tony Roma's
Pappadeaux
Ripleys
Checkers
Blockbuster
Fiesta
Panchos
Kmart
Shipleys
Cavenders
Weiners
Tampico bay
The boat
Chuck E. Cheese

Gentlemen, shake your dicks; this pissing contest is over.

stevopike said:

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If that corner could talk

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Thanks for bringing up memories.

Miller's outpost - got most of my high school attire from there in the 80's. The original occupant of that space was a Safeway grocery store.

The casa - I only ate there a few times and don't recall much about the place, other than the carpet being covered w lots of tortilla chips.

Pappadeaux - the first 3 restaurants in that building didn't make it. Ate at that Pappaddeaux location dozens of times until the location by Cutten rd opened

Ripleys - Tommy Ripley took over from his dad in the late 80's and that place has been the only constant at that Intersection since the early 70's. One of Tommys brothers, David (an Ag) started a Ripleys location on Rayford by 45 and both have been going strong.

Blockbuster - never went in that location but rented several movies from the champions location.

Fiesta - the original retailer in that space was a large electronic store (perhaps Federated?). I recall when it went out of business in the early 80's and they had a liquidating sale where they were selling Atari 2600 games 75% off.

Panchos - only raised the flag there once. Tumbleweed was in that location before Panchos. I'm not sure if Tumbleweed was the original retailer on the far right of the Kmart shopping center.

Cavendars - initially in that sport was a Gulf Oil service and gas station. I think it was razed in the early 90's and Cavendars was built on that spot by the Kmart parking lot.

Kmart - used to have car shows every Friday night in the parking lot from the early to mid 80's

Weiners - initially in that location was a Gerlands. They moved East into the Eagle Grocery store location in front of Ponderosa Forrest when Eagle closed in the early 80's. Surprisingly the Eagle grocery store location (along w the Randall's Flagship shopping center by Champions Forrest Dr) was one of the nicest shopping centers on 1960. In the late 80's the shopping center removed the 12'x12' brick planters that aligned the store fronts , removed the landscaping in the parking lot, and redid the facade. When it was built that shopping center had a Ponderosa theme look, stone and cedar accents, a covered porch in front of all the storefront that went from Ella to the other street to the west. It's hard to imagine, but that eye sore was once nice.

Tampico bay - no comment

The boat - one of the first breakfast restaurants in the area was a Sambos, located in a separate building facing 1960 in that parking lot.

Lots of great memories from that area. A lot of famous people lived in the area in the 70's and 80's. I grew up in Champions a couple blocks from Farrah Fawcett's parents. In the 70's on holidays my friends and I would ride our bikes by her parents house to see the real life version of the poster hanging up in my room.

My uncle lived in Westador a few houses down from Freddy Fender in the 70's. My cousin and Freddys daughter, Tammy, we're friends.

Akeem Olajuwon (before he added the "H" and became Hakeem) built a house in North Gate shortly after he signed with the Rockets in 85. I saw him a few times eating at Clementines. Akeems house backed up to Mattress Macks.

One of Ken Stabblers Houston area houses was in Olde Oaks. He was involved in several real estate transactions along 1960… many of the parties involved said he lived up to his nickname, the snake.

Don't forget Mary Lou Retton and her red corvette could be spotted around Champions. Didn't she live in the high rise condos on Champion Forest?

Farrah and Ryan O'Neil on occasion would come into Randall's on 1960 and Champions Forest. He would always take the bags himself and never let us carry them out.

stevopike said:

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If that corner could talk

Miller's outpost
The casa
Tony Roma's
Pappadeaux
Ripleys
Checkers
Blockbuster
Fiesta
Panchos
Kmart
Shipleys
Cavenders
Weiners
Tampico bay
The boat
Chuck E. Cheese

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Showbiz Pizza back in my day

Diggity said:

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Why did bus stops ruin this particular area and not other parts of town?

Are there more bus stops per capita than other areas? Honestly curious.

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They didn't. But it takes more critical thinking about urban planning, place-making, proper access management, and myriad other variables that no one wants to wrap their brain around. So buses get the blame. Every time. It's such a tired and lazy argument.

neAGle96 said:

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Anagrammatic Nudist said:

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I've studied this corridor and its development history probably more than anyone alive. This is a large part of my career. My wife and her family lived in Champion Forest since the early 1980s. My first home with my wife was in Champion Forest more than twenty years ago.

TxDOT allowing every strip center, apartment complex, gas station, etc, their own driveway, and all of the development mistakes through the years is the underlying cause. It's not "an excuse". It's a fact. It is the very model of poor urban planning and design, and was destined to fail from inception.

The bus line down 1960 was installed after most of the development infrastructure, high-density development, and retail strip center Generica had already been built. It was reactive, not proactive.

Are there problems with garbage, etc? Of course. This exists anywhere garbage cans exist, at any part of the region. It's not isolated to METRO.

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Congratulations on the study (im not sure how you know you have spent more time on the subject than anyone alive though). For someone who has studied the Champions/ 1960 corridor more than anyone alive, im not sure how you are unaware of the lack of access to major thoroughfares when the area was initially built. Despite the lack of access, the area grew prospered and was one of the nicer suburbs. Access to major thoroughfare is better today than it has ever been.

I have family and family friends who were a part of initially developing the area (most of them have spent a lot of time and resources studying the area). I lived in the area for 40 years, have family living in the area over 50 year's, and have witnessed the areas decay over that time. I also personally know a handful of owners of retail establishments who moved out of the area in the late 80's through early 90's because of crime. All attribute a large percentage of the loitering in their establishments to vagrants that hung out at bus stops. Coincidentally, theft and vandalism began shortly after the in line metro route was established and increased every year thereafter.

The arrest records and incidents from law enforcement tell the true tale. To the point, the number of incidents at and around the metro in line bus stops are higher. Full Stop

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You are completely misunderstanding the access management portion of the problem. It has nothing to do with access to major thoroughfares. It has everything to do with TxDOT allowing every. single. business. their own driveway. Traffic congestion was guaranteed with this amount of friction built-in to the corridor. It's an awful design from the inception, and was built to fail.

Only recently with the new access management work done by TxDOT to eliminate the two-way left-turn lane have things gotten somewhat better. Further schematics exist for combining driveways at business and strip centers, but that's basically just going to be liptstick on a pig at this point. The damage was done long, long ago by denying this corridor any sense of place.

It's as generic as any major thoroughfare can get. No sense of place, cars everywhere, terrible pedestrian and or bike facilities, and high-density development up and down the corridor. The single biggest mistake in Houston's roadway planning history was not making this corridor a limited access-managed corridor from the beginning.

I think you're confusing traffic flow and engineering with crime and economic decay of the area

1960 reminds me of Mason Rd between I-10 and Cinco Ranch Blvd. They were both designed similarly and developed around the same time frame. The only difference is lack of bus line. They both met the same fate.

When I was moving out of Copperfield 2 years ago the county was starting to put sidewalks in along Hwy 6 between 290 and 529. There were rampant complaints on Nextdoor about how the sidewalks were the beginning of the end for the area as bus stops were sure to follow in their mind. Lets not forget that the area already has been trending downward since it is no longer the latest and greatest suburb in the area and many of the businesses in the area have already moved out, but they'll still blame Metro should it ever arrive.

Diggity said:

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Why did bus stops ruin this particular area and not other parts of town?

Are there more bus stops per capita than other areas? Honestly curious.

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I have been told by family and family friends in the residential and residential development industry one of the leading factors that determine a neighborhoods long term viability is if it backs up to a major road vs those that back up to a strip center. Those neighborhoods that back up to a shopping center will eventually succumb to crime and more transient home ownership than similar neighborhoods which don't have strip centers.

The houses facing Raveneaux, while not as prestigious as they were in the 80's, haven't decayed as fast as other neighborhoods backing up to strip centers on 1960. Tanglewood properties closer to Woodway have held their value and appreciated more than similar properties closer to the strip centers of San Felipe and Westheimer.

Westheimer vs San Felipe/ Briarwood vs woodway All 3 of these roads have Metro in line routes. Those metro bus routes on Westheimer have more crime incidents from LE statistics. There are more crime statistics around the bus stops on San Felipe between Bearing and Voss, than there are at stops along Briarwood west of Voss (the same road w similar traffic volume).

Many have the defensive position that criminals don't take the bus across town to commit crimes when others bring up Metro. I agree, ofcourse criminals don't. LE have told us it's criminals who are not metro riders who often initially use the bus stops as a meeting place to make illicit transactions. It's harder for LE to ask people congregating around an in-line metro bus shed to vacate than in front of a storefront w out a metro stop.

Afterward statistics have shown petty theft, car break ins, shoplifting and vandalism rise in the adjacent shopping center as the metro shed. Statistics have also shown there is more criminal activity around commercial establishments than residents in an area (which support the # of incidents at or around metro bus stops on Sanfelipe vs those a mike west on Briarwood or those stops a block north north on woodway.

A few months ago both my parents (who are in the 80's) had their medications sent to the wrong Walgreens. Instead of their normal Walgreens they sent the script to the Walgreens a few miles away on 1960 and Ella. They were under the weather so I made the drive from SE Moco. When I arrived there were 3 men at the bus stop smoking and drinking 40 oz along w a half dozen other people in the bus shed. I ended having to go inside Walgreens and waited about 45 minutes for the order to be filled. During that interim a few buses stopped and as I was leaving another bus pulled up. The 3 dudes smoking and drinking were still there and as the bus arrived, they didn't even turn to take note of which bus route was pulling up. The others that were at the stop when I arrived were gone. I have no idea what the men were doing if anything, other than drinking, but it certainly appeared they weren't interested in catching a bus. Most establishments would have asked them to leave if they were congregated in the parking lot drinking and would've had some success w LE getting them to disburse if there wasn't a Metro stop in front of their parking lot.

Just look at the damage the #70 Metro route did to home values. Kidding. The real baller neighborhoods want Metro in order for their help to get to work.

It's too bad Champions dropped like it did, but that seems the natural course for suburbs in our no zoning town. True for my side of town in the west. True for Highway 6 in Fort Bend where my wife grew up. The only thing that seems to arrest the decline is barriers like reservoirs and waterways combined with a mix of commercial districts and office space. Memorial City, Galleria, Energy Corridor, Woodlands are where there are major corporate employers are driving demand in a limited area. Maybe the new trend of master planned communities carving out enormous space will prevent that similar decline the future, but I'm not in real estate or urban planning. Personally, I wouldn't buy in Sienna Plantation with the expectation of living there in 40 years. And I think Kingwood is in a lot of trouble in the next 20.

if the neighborhood grows enough, there are always going to be parts to "back up to a major road". It's basically part of the planning. You have commercial areas next to the residential areas. They also plan for "gasp" apartments.

As others have mentioned, in order for a decent chunk of the labor pool to get to the businesses that Betty Sue Homemaker wants close by, they need access to public transportation.

Diggity said:

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if the neighborhood grows enough, there are always going to be parts to "back up to a major road". It's basically part of the planning. You have commercial areas next to the residential areas. They also plan for "gasp" apartments.

As others have mentioned, in order for a decent chunk of the labor pool to get to the businesses that Betty Sue Homemaker wants close by, they need access to public transportation.

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Its not if they back up to a major road. It's backing up to a major road vs backing up to a strip center.

Look at Tanglewood and memorial neighborhoods on San Felipe and briarwood vs other neighborhoods in that area. There are still metro stops near tanglewood, they are at the corner on the outside walls beyond a residences on woodway and San Felipe. On other neighborhoods further between bearing and Voss the bus stops are in strip center parking lots. While there is some crime at the Bus stops near tanglewood it is lower than the crime statistics at metro bus stops a mile down the road in shopping centers.

On Riley Fuzzel, Benders Landing vs Spring Trails and Harmony. Benders (which was before harmony) had the foresight to develop lots that backed up against Riley Fuzzel, Spring Trails and Harmony did not and the buffer was filled by commercial centers. Metro nor any other bus line runs there, and I'm sure maids still work at many of the houses in Benders.

Having worked in the galleria area I've seen plenty of domestic help and maids get off at the bus stop on chimney rock and woodway (which backs up to a large brick fence beyond a Tanglewood residence) and walk towards Tanglewood (presumably to the house they were cleaning)

neAGle96 said:

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Diggity said:

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if the neighborhood grows enough, there are always going to be parts to "back up to a major road". It's basically part of the planning. You have commercial areas next to the residential areas. They also plan for "gasp" apartments.

As others have mentioned, in order for a decent chunk of the labor pool to get to the businesses that Betty Sue Homemaker wants close by, they need access to public transportation.

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Look at Tanglewood and memorial neighborhoods on San Felipe and briarwood vs other neighborhoods in that area. There are metro stops near tanglewood, they are at the corner on the side walls beyond a residences at the intersections on woodway and San Felipe

On Riley Fuzzel, Benders Landing vs Spring Trails and Harmony. Benders (which was before harmony) had the foresight to develop lots that backed up against Riley Fuzzel, Spring Trails and Harmony did not and the buffer was filled by commercial centers. Metro not any other bus line runs there, and I'm sure maids still work at many of the houses in Benders.

Having worked in the galleria area I've seen plenty of domestic help and maids get off at the bus stop on chimney rock and woodway (which backs up to a large brick fence beyond a Tanglewood residence) and walk towards Tanglewood (presumably to the house they were cleaning)

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Sure, you can put some buffers in there in newer neighborhoods and planners have learned a lot about how to divide up MPC's, but that doesn't change the fact the areas like Tanglewood, River Oaks and West U have bus lines on the major roads that butt up right against them (or right through) them. I don't think the brick wall is there to keep the criminal element out. These criminals aren't the smartest but they do typically realize you can walk around them.

I'm sorry, but your theory just doesn't hold water when it's tested around the city.

I don't know a ton about Champions, but I do think the long term issue was it's relatively poor access from major freeways. As you mentioned, it was one of the first suburban areas built during the boom of the late 70's but as the city matured and lots of other options became available, people chose other areas.

Even in 1983, I know my parents looked at Champions and eventually opted for Katy instead. Access was an issue for sure.

I think you're missing my point. The question was why
did bus stops ruin this particular area (1960) and not other parts of town?

There are also metro stops along Tanglewood that back up directly to woodway and San Felipe. Ask any LE officer to pull up the crime reports near the address of those bus stops vs the # of incidents at bus stops in strip centers further west on San Felipe.

stevopike said:

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If that corner could talk

Miller's outpost
The casa
Tony Roma's
Pappadeaux
Ripleys
Checkers
Blockbuster
Fiesta
Panchos
Kmart
Shipleys
Cavenders
Weiners
Tampico bay
The boat
Chuck E. Cheese

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Holy **** that is flashback of my youth. The casa was Casa Elaina when I was a kid. That and panjos pizza at CF was about only places to eat on 1960 in early 70s.

I honestly have no idea what your argument is....so I'll let us both think we're right.

Homes are built, area gets nice, apartments go in, people in homes get scared of apartment people, homeowners leave, area declines, people blame bus line.

neAGle96 said:

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I think you're confusing traffic flow and engineering with crime and economic decay of the area

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These two can be, and usually are, directly related. I'm not confusing anything.

Anagrammatic Nudist said:

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neAGle96 said:

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I think you're confusing traffic flow and engineering with crime and economic decay of the area

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These two can be, and usually are, directly related. I'm not confusing anything.

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As far as Champions and the 1960 W corridor go, traffic flow is better than ever. Economic decay and crime are at its worst

neAGle96 said:

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Anagrammatic Nudist said:

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neAGle96 said:

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I think you're confusing traffic flow and engineering with crime and economic decay of the area

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These two can be, and usually are, directly related. I'm not confusing anything.

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As far as Champions and the 1960 W corridor go, traffic flow is better than ever. Economic decay and crime are at its worst

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Funny, you know why traffic flow is better than ever? Access management improvements that have been constructed over the last few years. Which is exactly what was missing for 30 years while this corridor grew out of control, became a generic strip-center haven with a driveway for every business, stifling traffic that brings urban blight, economic decay, moving away, and an incredible lack of place-making.

The economic decay and/or crime have roots from long, long ago from horrendous urban planning. Improving traffic today is again, lipstick on a pig.

The changes to 1960 were made 10 + years ago. Crime and deterioration of the area has slide further down hill since then

I would argue that is partially due to 249 being more of a thoroughfare than before so now Tomball is developing tons of new housing. If you're looking to move to that side of town, why would you buy in Champions when you can get something much newer just a few more miles down the road. The changes to 1960 were too late.

neAGle96 said:

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The changes to 1960 were made 10 + years ago. Crime and deterioration of the area has slide further down hill since then

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The access management improvements were made more recently than that on many segments.

Look, I'm not going to change your mind just like I'm not going to change the mind of my racist father-in-law.

It doesn't matter what facts are thrown his way... he is just too obstinate to care to understand.

This article encapsulates it perfectly: https://www.houstonchronicle.com/news/columnists/greater-houston/article/Riding-the-bus-on-FM-1960-surviving-to-tell-the-11535458.php

Perception doesn't equal reality.

cajunaggie08 said:

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I would argue that is partially due to 249 being more of a thoroughfare than before so now Tomball is developing tons of new housing. If you're looking to move to that side of town, why would you buy in Champions when you can get something much newer just a few more miles down the road. The changes to 1960 were too late.

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The changes were much, much too late to FM 1960. I applaud the Cypress Creek Coalition and the Chamber for this area for trying, but it's just a Herculean task.

Anagrammatic Nudist said:

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neAGle96 said:

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The changes to 1960 were made 10 + years ago. Crime and deterioration of the area has slide further down hill since then

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The access management improvements were made more recently than that on many segments.

Look, I'm not going to change your mind just like I'm not going to change the mind of my racist father-in-law.

It doesn't matter what facts are thrown his way... he is just too obstinate to care to understand.

This article encapsulates it perfectly: https://www.houstonchronicle.com/news/columnists/greater-houston/article/Riding-the-bus-on-FM-1960-surviving-to-tell-the-11535458.php

Perception doesn't equal reality.

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Agreed. But can you please stop insinuating people are racist because they look at statistics where crime and decay to an area are correlated to metro? It is really troublesome when one throws out the race card when they don't agree w others.

I know several good men and builders who were involved in developing the area such as Husfeld, Dick Severa, Vincent Kickerillo, Lee Moynahan, the Goettee brothers who are not racist and have viewed the statistics w the Metro line and increased crime. They don't share your opinion. Chuck Jacobus, who is also a family friend and one of the leading real estate attorney in town also doesn't share all your views and he is far from a racist too.

Btw, all of these men have spent a lot time and resources researching the area too (most have spent decades researching statistics in the area and began many years before you or your in-laws moved to the area)