or it's just the life cycle of a busy road that became dominated by strip centers.
neAGle96 said:Anagrammatic Nudist said:Again, the METRO transit route down FM 1960 was reactive, not proactive. Incredibly short-sided development decisions and poor access management design by TxDOT are squarely to blame, but it's much easier to just blame it on a bus and the people riding it.neAGle96 said:
Having grown up in the area in the 70's and 80's , and my parents still living in the same house in the area since the late 60's, the current condition of the area is sad.
While Metro isn't solely responsible for the areas deterioration, to say it was inconsequential is naive.
Again, that not accurate.
I recall when 1960 was a 2 lane road. There has always been poor access issues, but Chanpions was one of Houston's nicest suburbs in the70's through mid 80's. It was an even nicer area before Kuykendahl connected to 45, and you had to access 45 by driving East down 1960 to 45 intersection.
The crime along 1960, the transient business (after original retailers moved) among 1960 (metro lines) are directly related to the area's deteriorating. To say otherwise is just not accurate
Diggity said:
or it's just the life cycle of a busy road that became dominated by strip centers.
Perhaps, but take a closer look at why retailers moved out. It certainly is a bigger factor than the lack of access design by TXDOT excuse you posted previously as the reason for the decline in the area.Anagrammatic Nudist said:Diggity said:
or it's just the life cycle of a busy road that became dominated by strip centers.
This is insanely more accurate than the typical, group-think, public transit blame.
But again, it's easy to hate on buses and the people that ride them, so this notion has gone unchallenged for many, many years.
Congratulations on the study (im not sure how you know you have spent more time on the subject than anyone alive though). For someone who has studied the Champions/ 1960 corridor more than anyone alive, im not sure how you are unaware of the lack of access to major thoroughfares when the area was initially built. Despite the lack of access, the area grew prospered and was one of the nicer suburbs. Access to major thoroughfare is better today than it has ever been.Anagrammatic Nudist said:
I've studied this corridor and its development history probably more than anyone alive. This is a large part of my career. My wife and her family lived in Champion Forest since the early 1980s. My first home with my wife was in Champion Forest more than twenty years ago.
TxDOT allowing every strip center, apartment complex, gas station, etc, their own driveway, and all of the development mistakes through the years is the underlying cause. It's not "an excuse". It's a fact. It is the very model of poor urban planning and design, and was destined to fail from inception.
The bus line down 1960 was installed after most of the development infrastructure, high-density development, and retail strip center Generica had already been built. It was reactive, not proactive.
Are there problems with garbage, etc? Of course. This exists anywhere garbage cans exist, at any part of the region. It's not isolated to METRO.
In the center of a roundabout at the 1960 and kuykendahl intersectionI Am A Critic said:
Where will they erect the Rosa Parks statue? At Cypress Station?
stevopike said:
If that corner could talk
stevopike said:
If that corner could talk
Miller's outpost
The casa
Tony Roma's
Pappadeaux
Ripleys
Checkers
Blockbuster
Fiesta
Panchos
Kmart
Shipleys
Cavenders
Weiners
Tampico bay
The boat
Chuck E. Cheese
They didn't. But it takes more critical thinking about urban planning, place-making, proper access management, and myriad other variables that no one wants to wrap their brain around. So buses get the blame. Every time. It's such a tired and lazy argument.Diggity said:
Why did bus stops ruin this particular area and not other parts of town?
Are there more bus stops per capita than other areas? Honestly curious.
You are completely misunderstanding the access management portion of the problem. It has nothing to do with access to major thoroughfares. It has everything to do with TxDOT allowing every. single. business. their own driveway. Traffic congestion was guaranteed with this amount of friction built-in to the corridor. It's an awful design from the inception, and was built to fail.neAGle96 said:Congratulations on the study (im not sure how you know you have spent more time on the subject than anyone alive though). For someone who has studied the Champions/ 1960 corridor more than anyone alive, im not sure how you are unaware of the lack of access to major thoroughfares when the area was initially built. Despite the lack of access, the area grew prospered and was one of the nicer suburbs. Access to major thoroughfare is better today than it has ever been.Anagrammatic Nudist said:
I've studied this corridor and its development history probably more than anyone alive. This is a large part of my career. My wife and her family lived in Champion Forest since the early 1980s. My first home with my wife was in Champion Forest more than twenty years ago.
TxDOT allowing every strip center, apartment complex, gas station, etc, their own driveway, and all of the development mistakes through the years is the underlying cause. It's not "an excuse". It's a fact. It is the very model of poor urban planning and design, and was destined to fail from inception.
The bus line down 1960 was installed after most of the development infrastructure, high-density development, and retail strip center Generica had already been built. It was reactive, not proactive.
Are there problems with garbage, etc? Of course. This exists anywhere garbage cans exist, at any part of the region. It's not isolated to METRO.
I have family and family friends who were a part of initially developing the area (most of them have spent a lot of time and resources studying the area). I lived in the area for 40 years, have family living in the area over 50 year's, and have witnessed the areas decay over that time. I also personally know a handful of owners of retail establishments who moved out of the area in the late 80's through early 90's because of crime. All attribute a large percentage of the loitering in their establishments to vagrants that hung out at bus stops. Coincidentally, theft and vandalism began shortly after the in line metro route was established and increased every year thereafter.
The arrest records and incidents from law enforcement tell the true tale. To the point, the number of incidents at and around the metro in line bus stops are higher. Full Stop
Diggity said:
Why did bus stops ruin this particular area and not other parts of town?
Are there more bus stops per capita than other areas? Honestly curious.
Diggity said:
if the neighborhood grows enough, there are always going to be parts to "back up to a major road". It's basically part of the planning. You have commercial areas next to the residential areas. They also plan for "gasp" apartments.
As others have mentioned, in order for a decent chunk of the labor pool to get to the businesses that Betty Sue Homemaker wants close by, they need access to public transportation.
Sure, you can put some buffers in there in newer neighborhoods and planners have learned a lot about how to divide up MPC's, but that doesn't change the fact the areas like Tanglewood, River Oaks and West U have bus lines on the major roads that butt up right against them (or right through) them. I don't think the brick wall is there to keep the criminal element out. These criminals aren't the smartest but they do typically realize you can walk around them.neAGle96 said:Diggity said:
if the neighborhood grows enough, there are always going to be parts to "back up to a major road". It's basically part of the planning. You have commercial areas next to the residential areas. They also plan for "gasp" apartments.
As others have mentioned, in order for a decent chunk of the labor pool to get to the businesses that Betty Sue Homemaker wants close by, they need access to public transportation.
Look at Tanglewood and memorial neighborhoods on San Felipe and briarwood vs other neighborhoods in that area. There are metro stops near tanglewood, they are at the corner on the side walls beyond a residences at the intersections on woodway and San Felipe
On Riley Fuzzel, Benders Landing vs Spring Trails and Harmony. Benders (which was before harmony) had the foresight to develop lots that backed up against Riley Fuzzel, Spring Trails and Harmony did not and the buffer was filled by commercial centers. Metro not any other bus line runs there, and I'm sure maids still work at many of the houses in Benders.
Having worked in the galleria area I've seen plenty of domestic help and maids get off at the bus stop on chimney rock and woodway (which backs up to a large brick fence beyond a Tanglewood residence) and walk towards Tanglewood (presumably to the house they were cleaning)
Holy **** that is flashback of my youth. The casa was Casa Elaina when I was a kid. That and panjos pizza at CF was about only places to eat on 1960 in early 70s.stevopike said:
If that corner could talk
Miller's outpost
The casa
Tony Roma's
Pappadeaux
Ripleys
Checkers
Blockbuster
Fiesta
Panchos
Kmart
Shipleys
Cavenders
Weiners
Tampico bay
The boat
Chuck E. Cheese
These two can be, and usually are, directly related. I'm not confusing anything.neAGle96 said:
I think you're confusing traffic flow and engineering with crime and economic decay of the area
Anagrammatic Nudist said:These two can be, and usually are, directly related. I'm not confusing anything.neAGle96 said:
I think you're confusing traffic flow and engineering with crime and economic decay of the area
Funny, you know why traffic flow is better than ever? Access management improvements that have been constructed over the last few years. Which is exactly what was missing for 30 years while this corridor grew out of control, became a generic strip-center haven with a driveway for every business, stifling traffic that brings urban blight, economic decay, moving away, and an incredible lack of place-making.neAGle96 said:Anagrammatic Nudist said:These two can be, and usually are, directly related. I'm not confusing anything.neAGle96 said:
I think you're confusing traffic flow and engineering with crime and economic decay of the area
As far as Champions and the 1960 W corridor go, traffic flow is better than ever. Economic decay and crime are at its worst
The access management improvements were made more recently than that on many segments.neAGle96 said:
The changes to 1960 were made 10 + years ago. Crime and deterioration of the area has slide further down hill since then
The changes were much, much too late to FM 1960. I applaud the Cypress Creek Coalition and the Chamber for this area for trying, but it's just a Herculean task.cajunaggie08 said:
I would argue that is partially due to 249 being more of a thoroughfare than before so now Tomball is developing tons of new housing. If you're looking to move to that side of town, why would you buy in Champions when you can get something much newer just a few more miles down the road. The changes to 1960 were too late.
Anagrammatic Nudist said:The access management improvements were made more recently than that on many segments.neAGle96 said:
The changes to 1960 were made 10 + years ago. Crime and deterioration of the area has slide further down hill since then
Look, I'm not going to change your mind just like I'm not going to change the mind of my racist father-in-law.
It doesn't matter what facts are thrown his way... he is just too obstinate to care to understand.
This article encapsulates it perfectly: https://www.houstonchronicle.com/news/columnists/greater-houston/article/Riding-the-bus-on-FM-1960-surviving-to-tell-the-11535458.php
Perception doesn't equal reality.