I'm afraid you might be right, leatherneck

It doesnt matter if someones beating on you, you dont legally have the right to escalate the proceedings and stab someone to death. Thats a crime. It also makes no difference if the guy is a marine he will be held to the same laws as the rest of us.

However this is also a warning to people who drink themselves to the point where they lose self-control. If you fight with someone over something stupid, they could kill you. Always better to be a man and walk away.

Tragic all the way around many lives will be ruined over something so stupid.

[This message has been edited by BaronVonAggie (edited 4/8/2007 1:39p).]

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It doesnt matter if someones beating on you, you dont legally have the right to escalate the proceedings and stab someone to death.

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so if someone is beating you with a baseball bat, you don't have the right to defend yourself?

DISCLAIMER: No bats, to my knowledge, were used. This is just meant to illustrate the fact that blanket statements like this are false.

[This message has been edited by Jarhead96 (edited 4/8/2007 1:43p).]

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It doesnt matter if someones beating on you, you dont legally have the right to escalate the proceedings and stab someone to death. Thats a crime.

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But, it is ok to beat someone to death?


Does this remind anyone else of the beginning of ConAir?

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so if someone is beating you with a baseball bat, you don't have the right to defend yourself?

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The way I understand the law is you're allowed to defend yoursef in a manner consistent to how you're being attacked.

If someone punches you, you can punch back but pulling a potentially deadly weapon is a no no.

Of course there are exceptions, but from my understanding this was a fight. Of course the lawyers are trying to turn the dead guy into a slobbering maniac out for murder.

But we all know that stabbing someone to death when you could have just hauled ass is not appropriate.

At best even if the guy thought his buddy was in danger of being severely hurt to stab someone who is using their fists is the act of a coward and inappropriate, at worst its murder.

We all know it was a drunken brawl that no one needed to die because of.

[This message has been edited by BaronVonAggie (edited 4/8/2007 3:06p).]

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It also makes no difference if the guy is a marine he will be held to the same laws as the rest of us.

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That's the way it's supposed to work, and hopefully the way it will work in this case. (I'm not suggesting there's any reason to expect otherwise.) But equality in the eyes of the law does not entail equality in the eyes of the press.


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Bad grammar makes me [sic].

kicking someone in the head is deadly force.

If this, indeed, happened, then by your argument, responding in like kind would allow for a deadly force response

§ 9.31. SELF-DEFENSE. (a) Except as provided in Subsection (b), a person is justified in using force against another when and to the degree he reasonably believes the force is
immediately necessary to protect himself against the other's use or attempted use of unlawful force. (b) The use of force against another is not justified1) in response to verbal provocation alone;(2) to resist an arrest or search that the actor knows is being made by a peace officer, or by a person acting in a peace officer's presence and at his direction, even though the arrest or search is unlawful, unless the resistance is justified under Subsection (c);(3) if the actor consented to the exact force used or attempted by the other;(4) if the actor provoked the other's use or attempted use of unlawful force, unlessA) the actor abandons the encounter, or clearly communicates to the other his intent to do so reasonably believing
he cannot safely abandon the encounter; and
(B) the other nevertheless continues or attempts to use unlawful force against the actor; or(5) if the actor sought an explanation from or discussion with the other person concerning the actor's differences
with the other person while the actor was:
(A) carrying a weapon in violation of Section
46.02; or (B) possessing or transporting a weapon in violation of Section 46.05. (c) The use of force to resist an arrest or search is
justified: (1) if, before the actor offers any resistance, the peace officer (or person acting at his direction) uses or attempts
to use greater force than necessary to make the arrest or search; and (2) when and to the degree the actor reasonably believes the force is immediately necessary to protect himself
against the peace officer's (or other person's) use or attempted use of greater force than necessary. (d) The use of deadly force is not justified under this
subchapter except as provided in Sections 9.32, 9.33, and 9.34.

§ 9.33. DEFENSE OF THIRD PERSON. A person is justified in using force or deadly force against another to protect a third person if:
(1) under the circumstances as the actor reasonably believes them to be, the actor would be justified under Section 9.31
or 9.32 in using force or deadly force to protect himself against the unlawful force or unlawful deadly force he reasonably believes
to be threatening the third person he seeks to protect; and (2) the actor reasonably believes that his intervention is immediately necessary to protect the third person.

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kicking someone in the head is deadly force.

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Its almost impossible to convince a rational person that the need to stab someone to death was there because your friend is getting pummelled with no weapons present, marine or not.

The obvious question is, if you thought your friends life was in danger and you saw him getting pummelled, why did you take the time to draw out a knife and stab a guy. Why didnt you defend your friend by hitting or grabbing the pre-occupied unarmed guy who was attacking your friend.






[This message has been edited by BaronVonAggie (edited 4/8/2007 3:52p).]

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Also since the victim is a Rice student and obviously comes from a good family

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wow, what does this have to do with anything?

EDIT: I see you changed it.

It matters because the guy isnt a street hood who tried to mug these guys. The guy supposedly threatening lives was an unarmed Rice student, who presumably comes from a good family.

let's see how you react the next time you see your buddy get kicked in the head after being jumped

oh, I thought you said it mattered because they could afford to buy a fancy rich lawyer to represent them.

so good family = perfectly rational and not a thug

got it

Its happened before its called a brawl, and you frankly if you're the type who exchanges words in a bar you expect it when you go out. You dont pull a knife and stab someone to death.

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so good family = perfectly rational and not a thug

got it

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No I didnt say that, though of course the fact that the guy who died isnt a street hood, and is a college student at Rice from a good family will matter.

Just as someone being a Marine will matter.

you make it sound like the vic was just walking away and this guy stabbed him in the back

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The obvious question is, if you thought your friends life was in danger and you saw him getting pummelled, why did you take the time to draw out a knife and stab a guy. Why didnt you defend your friend by hitting or grabbing the pre-occupied unarmed guy who was attacking your friend.

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Two thoughts:

1) Size difference

2) Numbers difference


FWIW, my understanding of deadly force justification from my CHL course does not comport with your understanding of the law.

As explained to me:

If I am in fear of serious bodily injury, then I am justified in drawing my handgun and using deadly force.

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Its almost impossible to convince a rational person that the need to stab someone to death was there because your friend is getting pummelled with no weapons present, marine or not.

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Change the situation a bit:

If I see a woman getting raped, would I be justified in drawing my weapon and ending the attacker's life?

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you make it sound like the vic was just walking away and this guy stabbed him in the back

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And you want to believe the Marines lawyers yarn who is saying that this Rice bball player was trying to murder someone with his bare hands, and somehow a marine was incapable of stopping this imminent death with appropriate physical resistance.

I guess thats why there is courts rather than the mob to determine circumstances.

Though I will say from the marines testimony to police if I were a betting man I see jail time in his future.

BVA, I've got no quarrel with you. I'm just looking at it from the other side (the whole innocent before proven guilty thing). I don't know enough about the case, and I'd wager you don't either.

In the end, if I was a betting man, I'd say this would be some sort of manslaughter charge, and not murder.

and FWIW, we Marines are not superhuman...I'm not going up to Mike Tyson and tell him I can kick his ass

BVM,

I'm not saying this to be a wiseguy, but you need to do a little research about deadly force prior to posting something that you are stating is fact.

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It doesnt matter if someones beating on you, you dont legally have the right to escalate the proceedings and stab someone to death.

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That statement is not remotely true.




[This message has been edited by Stupendous Man! (edited 4/8/2007 4:15p).]

This incident right here is why I'm not really in favor of concealed permits.

We see what happens when a guy has more weapon than his mind is able to handle.

If he had pepper spray or a stun gun, or just used his fists all this would have ended nicely.

No parents son dead before his life really got started.

No Marines life ruined because he killed someobody over a stupid argument.

My advice leave the weapons to the professionals.

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I'm not saying this to be a wiseguy, but you need to do a little research about deadly force prior to posting something that you are stating is fact.


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It doesnt matter if someones beating on you, you dont legally have the right to escalate the proceedings and stab someone to death.
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That statement is not remotely true.

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I dont know what you're getting at, but its extremely hard to prove that you're justified in killing someone because your friend is getting beaten up with fists in public. A cop recently got fired in Austin for doing that and the people that they were fighting were known drug dealers.

This kid was an unarmed basketball player who goes to Rice.



[This message has been edited by BaronVonAggie (edited 4/8/2007 4:36p).]

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No Marines life ruined because he killed someobody over a stupid argument.

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was it? or something more at that point...that's my argument.

BVA,

You mentioned several times no one has the right to kill someone with a knife as self defense when the other party didn't have a weapon. I doubt the intention was to stab the victim to death. He may have wanted to divert the attention away from his friend. We don't know how it went down but you can't presume guilty as your statements allude to.

When you see the picture of Fuller after the incident as I have, one could come to the conclusion that Fuller's life was in danger. I realize you can't tell what happen by looking at a picture, but you can tell he got roughed up pretty good.

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but you can tell he got roughed up pretty good.

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...To say the least. The article I read stated that he (Fuller) would require reconstructive surgery to his face. It was in the Chron's article, if you'd like to see it for yourself.

This was most definately a tragedy for everyone involved and their families. My thoughts and prayers are offered for them all, and for the officers investigating the case.

Child of Grace,

You are correct, I wanted to say it looked like he go jumped by 10 guys, but I didn' want to run into the "how can you tell from the a picture" responses. His whole face was swollen and his eyed looked like they could not be opened (both black eyes). He was bruised with red and black marks all over his face. Sad event........

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I dont know what you're getting at, but its extremely hard to prove that you're justified in killing someone because your friend is getting beaten up with fists in public.

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What I'm getting at is that in the original statement that I quoted, you said that a person does not have the legal right to use leathal force if the assailante is only using their fists. That is absolutely incorrect. If a person feels that they are in danger of serious bodily harm or if someone else is in danger of serious bodily harm....they most certainly DO have the legal right to use lethal force.

my fists are lethal weapons

Not as lethal as your butt.

Backblast area all clear...

http://www.nraila.org/ArmedCitizen/

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Des Moines Register, Des Moines, Iowa, 10/15/04
State: IA
American Rifleman Issue: 11/1/2004
When his wife's ex-husband forced his way into their Fort Dodge, Iowa, home, and assaulted him, Dr. Daniel Cole, a medical examiner, retrieved a gun and fired a shot, fatally wounding his assailant. A Webster County grand jury declined to file charges.

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Austin American-Statesman, Austin, TX, 02/14/04
State: TX
American Rifleman Issue: 5/1/2004
Perry Tatsch and his wife were sleeping when a man drove his truck through a gate on their property and kicked in the front door around 2 a.m. The intruder, later identified as Steven Ray Foster, then assaulted Mr. Tatsch. Coming to her husband's aid, Tatsch's wife managed to push Foster into the kitchen. When Tatsch then ran into his bathroom, Foster followed him and continued beating him. Tatsch's wife intervened a second time, giving Tatsch enough time to secure a handgun. Tatsch then ordered Foster to leave. The two men struggled and Tatsch shot Foster in the chest, killing him. The Tatsches had separated for a while and Foster reportedly had been interested in dating Mrs. Tatsch, who told authorities she did not share Foster's interest.

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The Post and Courier, Charleston, S C., 10/7/01
State: SC
American Rifleman Issue: 1/1/2002
An elderly man shot an intruder after the man forced his way into a house and assaulted the homeowner and his wife. The couple had heard noises from the back of their house, then they saw a stranger walking from the back yard to the front yard. When they went to their front door to see what was going on, the stranger forced his way into the home and a brief struggle ensued, with the intruder pushing and grabbing at the homeowners. When the interloper then bolted toward the back of the house, the homeowner grabbed his gun from a bedroom and shot his attacker when he again tried to assault him.

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Dallas Morning News, Dallas, Tex., 7/30/04
State: TX
American Rifleman Issue: 8/1/2004
Awakened at 4 AM by the sounds of banging on the door of his Dallas, Tex., home, Karl Julius decided to check it out. While his wife called 911, Julius retrieved a handgun. When Julius opened the front door, an intruder rushed at him. Julius fired one shot, killing the assailant. Police said the shooting "apparently was justified."

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There are plenty more.

Sorry Baron, but being kicked in the head by multiple people while down can kill you. Blunt force trauma to the head is lethal. I don't advocate violence at all, but if you believe the defendant'S side of the story i would not blame him for acting the way he did. If you believe the victim's side of the story then it appears to be a cowardly act of murder. The thing is, we don't know whose side is telling the truth (or more of the truth) and as such can not pick one side or the other without all the facts. It seems you have already made up your mind that the marine is at fault...

If it's an act of third-party self defense (I don't know all the facts so I'm not saying it is) then he has EVERY right to use ANY means necessary to protect his friend.

I would hope that if you, Baron, were to get jumped that your friends, or surrounding civilians, would be kind enough to use any force they deem necessary to save your life.

[This message has been edited by Average Joe (edited 4/8/2007 7:08p).]

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I guess thats why there is courts rather than the mob to determine circumstances.

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yet you seem to be quite willing to assign blame on here before anything has reached the courts

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and somehow a marine was incapable of stopping this imminent death with appropriate physical resistance.

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Even with combat training, what do you propose a person would do to subdue two or more people that are a foot taller than you and have more muscle?