Hopefully they'll put the recording up whereas this was a live feed
Legal ramifications against Camp Mystic
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Last: 6 hrs ago by Marvin_Zindler
DannyDuberstein said:
- Only 3 flash flood warnings during camp season in the last 25 years. Deflates "warning fatigue" excuse
- never did any kind of emergency drill of any sort ever
- security was on site 10am to 2am. To comfort parents, he had told folks it was 24/7
- at 1:45am, he told Glenn J to go home so he wouldn't get stuck there (his shift was set to end at 2am). He thankfully ignored Dick
That stat assumes the family only lives there during camp season, which is not true. There were a total of 91 flood warnings over something like 25 years. Not taking away from the accurate conclusion that they were totally unprepared for a situation calling for evacuation, but the warning fatigue is a real thing and 91 warnings over ~25 years would certainly be enough to inspire it if none of them led to anything approaching this kind of flood. But the fact that Dick was awake and monitoring weather apps suggests that he was not complacent about the warning itself.
3 per year is not exactly a lot either. And while he's checking alerts, he also tries to send his one security guy home
TexasAg95 said:
wow. The slide about Dick Eastland is really something. All the descriptions of him being "old school" and everybody being scared to speak up, etc....geez. All the people wanting to destroy the Eastlands and their entire reputation forever are definitely getting their wish.
i don't see how they keep the camp or the camp survives at all. Going to be sold and developed.
And honestly the more you hear the more you wonder about criminal negligence.
I mentioned that earlier and was laughed at. The Texas Rangers being called in should be very concerning for the Eastlands.
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DannyDuberstein said:
3 per year is not exactly a lot either. And while he's checking alerts, he also tries to send his one security guy home
By themselves, no. But you put severe thunderstorm watches/warnings, flood watches, red flag warnings, high wind warnings, heat advisories, air quality alerts, amber alerts, silver alerts, clear alerts, etc. that all end up coming through on the same source (his cell phone), it adds up.
I am not trying to make excuses for him. I am just saying it is a real issue that safety managers and emergency planners need to account for because it does happen. We get used to hearing the alert tone, reading the message, and taking a few seconds to decide if it is something we need to worry about. You heard it in what Edward said about seeing the water on the road and in the soccer field, he was stunned. It was not a flood scenario they had ever contemplated. They were wrong not to have done so, but the reality is that getting a flood warning via a phone alert was not ever going to trigger Dick to immediately think "I need to start evacuating cabins" because that was not the way any of those previous 91 turned out.
txags92 said:DannyDuberstein said:
- Only 3 flash flood warnings during camp season in the last 25 years. Deflates "warning fatigue" excuse
- never did any kind of emergency drill of any sort ever
- security was on site 10am to 2am. To comfort parents, he had told folks it was 24/7
- at 1:45am, he told Glenn J to go home so he wouldn't get stuck there (his shift was set to end at 2am). He thankfully ignored Dick
That stat assumes the family only lives there during camp season, which is not true. There were a total of 91 flood warnings over something like 25 years. Not taking away from the accurate conclusion that they were totally unprepared for a situation calling for evacuation, but the warning fatigue is a real thing and 91 warnings over ~25 years would certainly be enough to inspire it if none of them led to anything approaching this kind of flood. But the fact that Dick was awake and monitoring weather apps suggests that he was not complacent about the warning itself.
If it was me, I would have a heightened sense of awareness and responsibility if it was my job to ensure the safety of 700 girls.
No material on this site is intended to be a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis or treatment. See full Medical Disclaimer.
Windy City Ag said:Quote:
This morning was painful to watch. Seems pretty obvious to me how extremely unprepared they were.
If Camp Mystic was not already dead yet, this was the kill shot.
- The reduction of counselors per cabin and use of the youngest girls (The 'ettes) in the cabins that were hit
- The working PA system that was never used
- The Eastland family themselves describing their dad a a control freak and the totally ad hoc response.
You now understand why some of the counselors and I am sure all of the campers would do anything Dick Eastland said. And it cost 27 lives.
No material on this site is intended to be a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis or treatment. See full Medical Disclaimer.
I might recommend starting with utilizing a safety planner or emergency manager in some form - even if it is limited engagement to make sure you have a sound plan along with a sound cadence to drill/practice it.
dermdoc said:txags92 said:DannyDuberstein said:
- Only 3 flash flood warnings during camp season in the last 25 years. Deflates "warning fatigue" excuse
- never did any kind of emergency drill of any sort ever
- security was on site 10am to 2am. To comfort parents, he had told folks it was 24/7
- at 1:45am, he told Glenn J to go home so he wouldn't get stuck there (his shift was set to end at 2am). He thankfully ignored Dick
That stat assumes the family only lives there during camp season, which is not true. There were a total of 91 flood warnings over something like 25 years. Not taking away from the accurate conclusion that they were totally unprepared for a situation calling for evacuation, but the warning fatigue is a real thing and 91 warnings over ~25 years would certainly be enough to inspire it if none of them led to anything approaching this kind of flood. But the fact that Dick was awake and monitoring weather apps suggests that he was not complacent about the warning itself.
If it was me, I would have a heightened sense of awareness and responsibility if it was my job to ensure the safety of 700 girls.
derm , you were right. as usual.
I think Eastland is a perfect representation of an old mentality that was in all industries. You probably saw it in medicine. The good old boy, oh hell we'll do it old school and not worry about all those rules mentality. It's fine and everybody laughs at it and says "that's just old so and so"....until it's not funny.
And it's not an excuse anymore. If this happens in 1990 there's probably alot of good old boy legislators just waving it off and saying that's just ol' Dick.
Agreed
The complete lack of communication that night cost girls their lives. Period.
When dicks own children who help him run the camp don't even know of the evacuation plans beforehand because they "were in his head" is inexcusable. Even if his plan was flawless and perfect what would've happened had he not been there and was off property in a different emergency?? Dick might've been a great human but it's obvious him and his family running the camp were completely unprepared for an emergency situation of any kind.
The complete lack of communication that night cost girls their lives. Period.
When dicks own children who help him run the camp don't even know of the evacuation plans beforehand because they "were in his head" is inexcusable. Even if his plan was flawless and perfect what would've happened had he not been there and was off property in a different emergency?? Dick might've been a great human but it's obvious him and his family running the camp were completely unprepared for an emergency situation of any kind.
Not to mention when you know you're in a flood warning and you have girls coming to you to say their cabin is taking on water you don't tell them to go back and put towels on the floor. Especially when you're sleeping next to three creeks/river and at the bottom of basically a canyon.
What's even worse is to imagine if some of those cabins did not take it upon themselves to evacuate. We could be looking at 60 or 70 dead girls instead
What's even worse is to imagine if some of those cabins did not take it upon themselves to evacuate. We could be looking at 60 or 70 dead girls instead
dermdoc said:txags92 said:DannyDuberstein said:
- Only 3 flash flood warnings during camp season in the last 25 years. Deflates "warning fatigue" excuse
- never did any kind of emergency drill of any sort ever
- security was on site 10am to 2am. To comfort parents, he had told folks it was 24/7
- at 1:45am, he told Glenn J to go home so he wouldn't get stuck there (his shift was set to end at 2am). He thankfully ignored Dick
That stat assumes the family only lives there during camp season, which is not true. There were a total of 91 flood warnings over something like 25 years. Not taking away from the accurate conclusion that they were totally unprepared for a situation calling for evacuation, but the warning fatigue is a real thing and 91 warnings over ~25 years would certainly be enough to inspire it if none of them led to anything approaching this kind of flood. But the fact that Dick was awake and monitoring weather apps suggests that he was not complacent about the warning itself.
If it was me, I would have a heightened sense of awareness and responsibility if it was my job to ensure the safety of 700 girls.
I think the fact that he spent the next 45 mins after the alert came in compulsively checking weather apps and rain gauges suggests he had a heightened sense of awareness about it. Please don't make this what it is not Derm. I am not trying to say he did the right thing, because clearly he did not. I am just saying that what he did was not outside of the realm of expectation for somebody who thought they knew which buildings were capable of flooding and which were not.
He got an alert, he watched the weather, he started doing the things they typically did when an actual flood was expected (moving stuff up away from the river), and when he figured out that the water was rising faster, he started evacuating girls. He just ran out of time and lost his life trying to save the girls he had with him.
The real battle was lost long before that night when he made the decision to keep all decision making for himself, to not provide the cabins with radios, to not have 3 counselors (including at least one senior) in each cabin, not to use the loudspeaker system to order an evacuation (though they may not have heard it anyways), and to not do any practice or training with the staff or campers on when and how to evacuate safely.
AustinCountyAg said:
Not to mention when you know you're in a flood warning and you have girls coming to you to say their cabin is taking on water you don't tell them to go back and put towels on the floor. Especially when you're sleeping next to three creeks/river and at the bottom of basically a canyon.
What's even worse is to imagine if some of those cabins did not take it upon themselves to evacuate. We could be looking at 60 or 70 dead girls instead
if that hall that a bunch of the girls went in to hadn't had a rickey balcony it could have been a LOT worse.
Again, except for trying to send his security guy home an hour into checking those alerts. Actively checking but not seemingly concerned with safety. Obviously they underestimated what this could do. But this area also has a 100+ history of "the water never got this high before until it did". Agree that complacency and stubbornness doomed it long before.
AustinCountyAg said:
Not to mention when you know you're in a flood warning and you have girls coming to you to say their cabin is taking on water you don't tell them to go back and put towels on the floor. Especially when you're sleeping next to three creeks/river and at the bottom of basically a canyon.
That is not an accurate statement of what happened. He drove back to the cabins with them, saw that the issue was water coming overland down the hill and not rising from the creeks or river and THEN he told them to use towels to try to keep more from coming in.
Dick made plenty of bad decisions before and during the flood, but this constant effort to imply that he valued canoes more than the lives of kids or that he was lazy that night couldn't be bothered to address issues being reported by the counselors is really kind of nauseating. The guy was flawed and made decisions that got a bunch of kids killed. But this effort to make it seem that he did so due to a lack of care about them or their lives is just wrong.
This situation is tragic enough and I am certain there is plenty of grief to go around, but can we please stick to discussing actual actions and decisions here and not try to get into slandering people's motives and ethics when they died trying to save lives and aren't here to defend themselves? The court cases will assign the blame where it is deserved, and I am confident that one way or another, the Eastlands will be done owning or operating Mystic when it is all said and done.
txags92 said:AustinCountyAg said:
Not to mention when you know you're in a flood warning and you have girls coming to you to say their cabin is taking on water you don't tell them to go back and put towels on the floor. Especially when you're sleeping next to three creeks/river and at the bottom of basically a canyon.
That is not an accurate statement of what happened. He drove back to the cabins with them, saw that the issue was water coming overland down the hill and not rising from the creeks or river and THEN he told them to use towels to try to keep more from coming in.
Dick made plenty of bad decisions before and during the flood, but this constant effort to imply that he valued canoes more than the lives of kids or that he was lazy that night couldn't be bothered to address issues being reported by the counselors is really kind of nauseating. The guy was flawed and made decisions that got a bunch of kids killed. But this effort to make it seem that he did so due to a lack of care about them or their lives is just wrong.
This situation is tragic enough and I am certain there is plenty of grief to go around, but can we please stick to discussing actual actions and decisions here and not try to get into slandering people's motives and ethics when they died trying to save lives and aren't here to defend themselves? The court cases will assign the blame where it is deserved, and I am confident that one way or another, the Eastlands will be done owning or operating Mystic when it is all said and done.
the more you hear you wonder if the eastlands will have a new temporary residence
DannyDuberstein said:
Again, except for trying to send his security guy home an hour into checking those alerts. Actively checking but not seemingly concerned with safety. Obviously they underestimated what this could do. But this area also has a 100+ history of "the water never got this high before until it did". Agree that complacency and stubbornness doomed it long before.
Yep. And companies with full time dedicated safety managers and constant training and drills still have people who have been there dozens of years through it all get killed. It happens because all the warnings and hazard alerts and training they received got repetitive and they tuned it out and became complacent because they thought they had seen the worst that could happen. After 1987, Mystic should have gotten much more serious about flood hazard planning. They didn't because they were complacent about how they safely rode it out. The complacency and lack of contingency planning for "what if it gets worse" are what got people killed.
Back on the 2 couselors vs 3 challenges, it was also noted that of the safety rules they did have, many of them would have been impossible for cabins with 2 counselors to follow - particularly on nights where one had a night off.
jja79 said:DannyDuberstein said:
We already have plenty to judge Mystic because we've seen the half-assed half-page plan
I haven't read every post but I take it Mystic had an inadequate plan. How many of the parents that sent their children to the camp requested, reviewed and questioned the plan before sending their children to a camp/area known to be in the flood plain and with a history of some catastrophic events?
Back to highlight on this one, as mentioned, they have evidence that Dick lied to a parent who was concerned and asked about the security coverage.
Mine was just a question about how many parents asked to review the plan beforehand.
Looks like the video has been saved....assuming this was 5 hours long.
https://house.texas.gov/videos/22678
https://house.texas.gov/videos/22678
today should be interesting. Eastlands will be testifying along with some of the parents. starts at 10
AustinCountyAg said:
Also curios why more attention isn't being drawn to the fact that Eastland never communicated with the kitchen workers/maintenance guys on staff to help with evacuating little girls. I feel like that is being overlooked some. Any and all hands on deck would've helped.
This was discussed yesterday and also at the TI hearing earlier in the month. Neither set of workers were left with a walkie talkie when Dick and Edward left. By the time that Glenn, Dick and Edward started evacs, first with Bug House (closest to the river) and then working their way back up, it was too late to stop and go get them to help.
thats why I went back and edited my post. No need to rehash. FWIW for those interested starting at the 5hour mark from yesterdays video it gets to some good points imo.
Here is a link to yesterdays session on youtube that's easier to access. Needless to say, this presentation is really tough stuff to listen to, but some of the facts in question and back and forth in this thread are answered.
The presentation by Casey Garrett was powerful. She's impressive. I had been interested in why the polish workers weren't able to help and this made it clear. Also the presentation made clear that the post incident situation was a nightmare. Insane that the adults could not have stepped up at that point.
Interesting comment from Richard regarding the warnings. The warnings highlighted the potential of 4-5" of rain that morning. That means something to a landowner...they ended up having 11.9" in a three-hour period.
I am working and will try to listen later. Can someone give Cliff notes?
No material on this site is intended to be a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis or treatment. See full Medical Disclaimer.
Fdsa said:
Interesting comment from Richard regarding the warnings. The warnings highlighted the potential of 4-5" of rain that morning. That means something to a landowner...they ended up having 11.9" in a three-hour period.
to add on to that it appears most of the family members have no idea what warning signs and how much in terms of how much rain they could handle at camp. Seems they relied sole on Dick to be the only one who could quantify how much rain=river rise, evacuations ,etc.
The kids keep going back to relying on Dick for everything. The slide from yesterday was spot on. He was the sole general in charge and everyone took the orders from him.
I sure would like to see testimony from a meteorologist and/or hydrologist to talk about what 12" of rain over three hours can do. My guess is that amount of water would be catastrophic anywhere in the state, much less the hill country which absorbs water like a tin roof.
AustinCountyAg said:Fdsa said:
Interesting comment from Richard regarding the warnings. The warnings highlighted the potential of 4-5" of rain that morning. That means something to a landowner...they ended up having 11.9" in a three-hour period.
to add on to that it appears most of the family members have no idea what warning signs and how much in terms of how much rain they could handle at camp. Seems they relied sole on Dick to be the only one who could quantify how much rain=river rise, evacuations ,etc.
The kids keep going back to relying on Dick for everything. The slide from yesterday was spot on. He was the sole general in charge and everyone took the orders from him.
if you tell anyone that lives in the Texas Hill Country near a river that they are going to get 12" in three hours...you are running uphill immediately.
I do agree, they relied on Dick for too much.
dermdoc said:
I am working and will try to listen later. Can someone give Cliff notes?
- Questions on staffing and camper / consoler ratio
- Lack of information about the severity of the rainfall
- Questions on Camp Revenue and revenue per session
- A lot of reinforcement to the idea that everything ran through Dick.
One thing should be clear after watching the testimony is this family has ZERO business running a camp this year.
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