Ejection is a dangerous and painful event. MFP talked about "giving an airplane back to the taxpayers", i.e. ejecting, and I was glad she had that mindset.

I think you have to have already committed to it as a possible course of action, before you climb in the cockpit. Human nature is to try and fix things, to save the aircraft, and to not get hurt during the ejection sequence.

One really has to overcome a bunch of their human nature, in a very short time, to successfully eject.

Can you see the cloud maker?

My take on a lot of the observations in the last half page or so

Pulling the nose up would partially be reacting to the ground and partially trying to max perform in the vertical axis. Approach speed is always 1.x stall speed in a given configuration, the .x changes with plane. So knowing that, if you're low trying to avoid the ground trading any extra speed to attempt a climb closer to stall speed makes sense.


I'm surprised they never went for the ejection handle but not surprised it didn't happen when the mishap instructor noticed the unsafe condition. If you're flying a jet that doesn't normally spool down towards idle on approach then there's no reason to think you aren't going to be able to get the engines spun up and get away from the ground. If the mishap instructor had been aware the throttles were at idle that long then he wouldn't have been in the spot he was in anyway. I imagine he thought the mishap student had just brought the throttles back and it would be a quick spin up to full burner but it wasn't.

Both of those paragraphs combine to explain why dropping the nose also wouldn't have saved them. They didn't have the altitude to trade for airspeed to pull out of the sink rate because the engines weren't producing power. They needed to stay airborne as long as possible to get the engines producing power. Don't think dropping the nose would've done that. He maaaaay have had enough altitude to dump the nose to get fast enough to pull flaps in to a higher lift/lower drag setting but that's not a normal maneuver and may not even been taught in the 38.
It's a last ditch move in my jet taught in case you lose a second engine on a departure or arrival. Even being taught that technique I'd wager it wouldn't come to my mind in a similar situation to this mishap.

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I'm guessing that if anyone was dropped into that exact scenario at that exact moment, basically no one would choose ejection as the first choice.

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Without a doubt…can't imagine nor understand how the IP remained unaware the plane was at idle for 18 seconds! That was the fatal mistake.

BoerneGator said:

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I'm guessing that if anyone was dropped into that exact scenario at that exact moment, basically no one would choose ejection as the first choice.

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Without a doubt…can't imagine nor understand how the IP remained unaware the plane was at idle for 18 seconds! That was the fatal mistake.

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The video linked above gives a pretty good explanation. Basically, both student and IP were rushed, overwhelmed, and behind the curve. Poor visibility added to their task saturation.

Anyone here who has flown T-38s, can you hear the engines through your helmets and ear protection? Somewhere I read that 80% throttle is normal for this approach, and the student pulled them to idle. In a piston engine, that would be a huge difference in sound. I don't know about the jet.

Although, the video did mention that when you get task saturated, auditory clues are one of the things your brain shuts out first.

It's really stunning all the mistakes, misses, overlooks, etc., both these pilots did. And after the fact, I'm shaking my head and at first thought, "... how dumb of these guys! They should not be flying."

But then, Lemoine strongly pointed out it can happen to anyone.

And it was easy for me to armchair this with lots of time to read about it. Those two had mere seconds in an unforgiving airplane.

CanyonAg77 said:

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Pilots are the world's worst in blaming the victim. I think there is a level of fear, knowing a small screwup can kill you.

So when someone does die, the rest of the community wants to find some way that the guy messed up, and to reassure yourself that you'd never be that stupid/careless/distracted/behind the plane.

When the truth is, all of us are more than capable, and probably have made far larger mistakes, but gotten away with them because we weren't flying a 60-year-old, high performance aircraft.

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I took away that Lemoine's presentation reflected everything you just wrote, Canyon. And I think he genuinely wanted to focus on helping prevent this from happening again. And I think he showed great sympathy for both pilots.

Pilots are *******s about accidents.

I know I've been over critical of John Denver in his accident. When I was a teen I did lots of stupid stuff in planes which may or may not have included a touch-n-go in a subdivision or 'canyon' flying below the banks of the Brazos River.

Really seems like the attitude is shifting more from blame to learn. At least for the young guys, the only recent mishap I've read/been in a class where it was discussed that was armchaired hard was the E-11 in Afghanistan.

But they also royally ****ed that up.

Thanks for the pic! Was about to ask.

Aside: I can't quite read the name painted on that aircraft. It makes wonder if your favorite pilot has a given nickname/callsign and if you can share it.

Same for CharlieBrown17

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I can't quite read the name painted on that aircraft.

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LT COL CHRIS "THUD" BEHRENS

CanyonAg77 said:

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I can't quite read the name painted on that aircraft.

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LT COL CHRIS "THUD" BEHRENS

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wonder if he and Ahab were ever wingmen. Seems logical.

Call signs are more of a fighter thing.

I call a large majority of my squadron by their first name unless it's a serious conversation.

CanyonAg77 what day did they come in? This last Sunday I was in the air in a Cessna 182 and asked to overfly midfield at KAMA to show my passengers. I was vectored to facilitate "COOL1, COOL2, and COOL3" to come in and make their breaks and land. I was then cleared at or above 6K to overfly and got to watch all three of them land underneath us as we overflew the airport. All 3 were F16's. My passengers were in awe being able to overfly that and see them come in and land while in the air above them.


edit to add I was post # 1K on this thread!!!

This was Monday afternoon.

Are you sure you saw Vipers? This arrival got lots of attention, we even had the fire department drive down to TAC Air so they could watch.

Everyone was telling us that F-16s are rare in Amarillo.

F-18s are common, and of course, T-38s from Vance and Sheppard are near daily arrivals.

I'm also surprised that no one in the aviation spotters group caught the flight you saw. One did catch a flight of 3 T-38s on Sunday

CanyonAg77 said:

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One of the local plane spotter types got a video of the takeoff and climb out.

Too much fun to watch your kid do this.

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Very cool. What was she in town for, besides to see her family?

It is possible it could have been T38's. They were moving much faster than I was haha! I crossed over KAMA around 2:45 in the afternoon headed south.

The guy posted his shot around 3:45, and a flight of 3 is unusual. Two or four is more common. Seems too big a coincidence that he didn't shoot any vipers, but did shoot a flight of 3 t-38s the same day

Cool is a T-38 call sign out of Del Rio (pretty sure on location).

That is actually pretty "cool" to know haha! Makes one wonder why they would be way up here passing thru.

If it was a Sunday they were probably coming back from the Colorado area.

Part of the pilot training syllabus is a cross country trip. Usually leave Friday, return Sunday.

Somehow I'd never heard this crazy-ass story. Almost 65 days in a Cessna 172.

https://hackaday.com/2021/10/25/the-longest-ever-flight-was-over-64-days-in-a-cessna-172/?fbclid=IwAR1xGsVn2WfKjcSgItvSCH7I1XTn8z_N5Yyc63aTRHle1AaJAIOWX8AXx68

Goose said:

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Somehow I'd never heard this crazy-ass story. Almost 65 days in a Cessna 172.

https://hackaday.com/2021/10/25/the-longest-ever-flight-was-over-64-days-in-a-cessna-172/?fbclid=IwAR1xGsVn2WfKjcSgItvSCH7I1XTn8z_N5Yyc63aTRHle1AaJAIOWX8AXx68

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I guess that's one way to get those 1,500 hours for ATP.

I seriously feel like Beavis and Butt-Head watching that video. "huh huh....vipers are cool. HAHA YEAH YEAH Vipers are bad ass!"

We're listening….

What were the mins? Do you have a HUD?