Superdave1993 said:

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So, the wife and I will be 50 this year and are looking for something we can pick up and enjoy together as we head towards and during retirement in a few years 10-15 ish. She bought me a "flight experience" at out local airport here in Arkansas and it was great, and not at all what I expected. The closest I can relate it to was driving on ice. It was crazy how the plane would slip, rise and move with little to no input. Not sure of the proper wording, but that surprised me.

We have friends with planes and one neighbor that is a close friend is a commercial pilot with his instructors license. We have talked over drinks a few times, and pretty much came to a deal that if I bought a plane the neighbor would swap instructor time for use of the plane. We both have company cars that can be used for personal use, so our price range would likely be $25-$50k, or similar to a Jeep / truck price.

Would a decent plane like a 182 or similar be good to start with, grow into and be reasonable to keep into retirement? Do you fly with you significant other often? I know that commercial is almost always cheaper, but is it there enough enjoyment in owing a plane to justify the possible added cost for short trips and upkeep?

Thanks in advance, and really just getting my toe in the water and figure a bunch of Ag's will be at least 93% truthful.

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I'm ignorant on this, but I've been doing a lot of "research" to try and figure out the big picture as I'd love to get my license and a plane.

What I'm sensing is the cost of a plane is only a fraction of the monthly / yearly cost. maybe 1/3 or less after you factor in insurance, maintenance, and fuel.

The problem I'm having is the point would be to fly the family and the kids friends to a destination we've wanted to purchase a house, but is really too far to drive frequently (11 hour of drive time). This would mean a 6 seater or bigger and most likely twin engines that chug fuel and are expensive to maintain and replace. Chartering a plane would be cheaper just without the money back when selling a plane.

Why a private plane? 12 hours in a vehicle or 2 hours in a commercial plane to the nearest big city 2.5 hours way, renting a car, 9-10 hours of total travel time. Private plane would be about 4 hours total travel and direct.

I'm not quite at a place where this is a reality to justify getting serious, but the more research I do the more depressing this gets as I've always dreamed of being a pilot since I passed up my chance and didn't go the military route.

For your first airplane as a new student, I'd advocate a fixed pitch propellor. Think a 172 or a Cherokee. Being a private pilot student is difficult enough, and one less knob means one more brain cell that can be devoted to learning.

When you're ready to move up, the market is hot and you'll have no trouble selling.

Eta: Just noticed the 25-50k price range. You're likely only going to get two seats in that price range at the moment. You may be able to find a decent Cherokee 140 (it's got 4 seats, but only enough power for 3 of them).

Thanks for the responses. Like I said just putting my toes in the water and the budget can be flexible for sure. My test flight was in a Cherokee 160, and my buddy has a Mooney. Pretty dang fast but it is like riding in an old VW beetle. I have realized that bigger means more money, there come a point that it is not worth it.

I only mentioned the 182 because it seems that is is a decent step up from a trainer, but could last do almost anything we would need it to do. They have both told me that you start with the license then learn how to fly. If the market is as crazy for planes as trucks then We may have to wait or just keep flying commercial.

Any of you guys follow aviation based YouTube channels? I've followed Juan Browne (blancolirio) for years, got me I trending to flight safety/crash investigation discussions like FlyWire. 310Pilot for the boobs. Matt Guthmiller for Bonanza porn - although is buddies kinda bug.

Lately I can't look away from Dan Gryder: Probable Cause. Super opinionated. Super presumptive. Experienced and not afraid to pick a fight - it's like a slow motion train wreck. I watch to see who he's going to try to offend next. Current target: AOPA Flight Safety Institute.

I'm a big time YouTube junkie. I really enjoy Premier1 Driver and CitationMax. Just cruising around everyday part 91 in a jet. I don't have time to watch all of their videos.

Guido Warnecke is a great one for very technical IMC flying.

I agree. He's got a strange vibe. If he was flying anything but a bonanza I wouldn't even bother. I guess Gryder agrees. He called him a loser and accused him of being 'in' on guthmiller's cohort intentionally ditching a Bonanza off CA coast.

@capt Carl. I forgot about premier1 driver. Watch him occasionally.

Steveo1kinevo is another good YouTube channel.

Ever wondered how your plane carburetor works?

I've owned my Mooney for 14 years now, and must say it is a big quality of life improvement! I use it for real travel. I had ~300 hours and an instrument rating and 50 ish Mooney hours when I jumped in.

It is expensive, and there is no way to talk around it. It is completely worth it to me, though. I do as much owner/supervised maintenance as possible to minimize costs, and I (mostly) enjoy it. It has displaced most other hobbies due to budget and time requirements, but that is a trade I would make again. I drive old vehicles, don't golf, belong to a country club, etc as I get a lot of social activity via aviation. It a an extremely gratifying activity/hobby that also can be useful/practical transportation, especially if you don't live near an airline hub like me. I've met some amazing folks along the way, and had some great adventures because I have a Mooney. I wish more folks would jump in an enjoy it as much as I do. It used to be a lot more common until the frivolous legal actions drove up costs and ran many companies and pilots out of the industry when it became too expensive for the average middle class family.

If you have the means, it can be extremely fun, challenging, rewarding, and practical.

Aero95 said:

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It used to be a lot more common until the frivolous legal actions drove up costs and ran many companies and pilots out of the industry when it became too expensive for the average middle class family.

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Nailed it.

Yeah I can't imagine paying for a PPL and instrument rating to then drop that much money on a GA plane. Sucks though, know lots of people that would've enjoyed aviation if they could swing the cost or keep affording it after a PPL

CaptnCarl said:

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The guy that did my check ride told me the pilots license is just a license to keep learning. I have found this to be so true.

People thinking they can knockout a pilots license to make travel easy are sourly reminded they are still learning.

Having a planned vacation with 5 passengers including kids expecting to be at the destination is about the worst scenario to place on a newly licensed pilot.

You have to remember, you can't fly through the weather a 737 with two professional pilots can.

IMO, a new pilot has a ton more learning to do before they can schedule vacations and load down the plane ago go. A very high performance plane helps.

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Very true. I have a little over 10K hours after leaving the airlines. When I got my ppl, at about 50 hrs, I rented a 152 and flew from Tulsa to Grand Prairie thru class B and back to have dinner with some friends. It wasn't till I had maybe a couple thousand hrs before I recognized how incredibly stupid that was to do.

The amount of VFR traffic under the bravo up here near SeaTac blows my mind.

Props to Seattle approach though, they do a great job managing the airspace compared to some other bravos I've been in

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I've owned my Mooney for 14 years now

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I've only had my Mooney for 3 years. I have a '67 M20F with manual gear and flaps which keeps the cost as low as you can get with a complex aircraft.

What model do you own?

What is your current insurance cost?

I have my hull at 90K and my most recent insurance was 2800.00 (not instrument rated).

Thanks, and that is what my buddy keeps telling me. He commutes to work in his Mooney twice a week. About a 2 hour drive reduced to 30 min for him as he just hops over the mountain. I did not realize the price jump for the 182 vs the 172 and similar planes. If this all happens it will likely be the wife and I on short to medium trips, so a cramped 4 seater may work. It is tempting to go towards a 152 or similar, just to get started at a lower cost of admission, but they both have said they are not much faster than driving and really tight.

Those guys and the fact the the oldest just moved back to Texas in San Antonio, and the youngest is looking at LSU got me to thinking more about possibly doing this. Little Rock has a decent airport with few direct flights, so commercial to SA can take almost as long as driving. Not looking to set the skies on fire, but if it is something we can do together then it might be a decent hobby for us to head into retirement and be able to see the kids on our schedule.

I never realized the many kinds of planes, certifications and such until I started looking. It can be a bit overwhelming for sure. Until my buddy Bob started talking about his Mooney, I would have assumed it and a Cherokee were about the same plane and price. I will keep asking new guy questions until we make a decision, but thanks again.

172RG might be a good fit

Rent a few different types from FBO's before committing to buying something for cross country. For every guy like your buddy or Aero95 that fly a bunch, there's 50 that fly their traveling plane less than 25 hrs/yr, and corrosion from sitting kills a Lycoming in short order. There's 50 hangars at the airport I work out of, and maybe 5 of the GA planes fly more than 25 hrs/yr.

Personally I hate flying cross country on a schedule. There's just too much to keep track of with weather, fuel, maintenance, logistics at the destination, and I end up stressing so much about it all I can't enjoy the trip. My regular commute is a 3.5 hr drive vs a 1 hr flight, I drive 90% of the time.

I'd spend the money on a rag and tube Piper for drifting around, and enjoy the road trip.

I've got a '77 J, 115k hull and $1400 insurance. Instrument rating, 1600+ hours now, mostly in the Mooney. I'm going thru a hail claim now, so they might start extracting more from me ...

Centerpole90 said:

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Any of you guys follow aviation based YouTube channels? I've followed Juan Browne (blancolirio) for years, got me I trending to flight safety/crash investigation discussions like FlyWire. 310Pilot for the boobs. Matt Guthmiller for Bonanza porn - although is buddies kinda bug.

Lately I can't look away from Dan Gryder: Probable Cause. Super opinionated. Super presumptive. Experienced and not afraid to pick a fight - it's like a slow motion train wreck. I watch to see who he's going to try to offend next. Current target: AOPA Flight Safety Institute.

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If you want to feel lazy, watch some of Mike Patey's build videos.

I've watched part of one Gryder video and couldn't stand him. I guess he's a professional troll? I think I'd rather read a National Enquirer article on a plane crash if that rag is even still around. They'd probably be more accurate than Gryder.

MaroonDontRun said:

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Quote:

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I've owned my Mooney for 14 years now

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I've only had my Mooney for 3 years. I have a '67 M20F with manual gear and flaps which keeps the cost as low as you can get with a complex aircraft.

What model do you own?

What is your current insurance cost?

I have my hull at 90K and my most recent insurance was 2800.00 (not instrument rated).

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Forgot to mention... Look up Airspeed Insurance before your next renewal. Parker is a 2-time Mooney owner and will find your best deal.

Superdave1993 said:

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Thanks, and that is what my buddy keeps telling me. He commutes to work in his Mooney twice a week. About a 2 hour drive reduced to 30 min for him as he just hops over the mountain. I did not realize the price jump for the 182 vs the 172 and similar planes. If this all happens it will likely be the wife and I on short to medium trips, so a cramped 4 seater may work. It is tempting to go towards a 152 or similar, just to get started at a lower cost of admission, but they both have said they are not much faster than driving and really tight.

Those guys and the fact the the oldest just moved back to Texas in San Antonio, and the youngest is looking at LSU got me to thinking more about possibly doing this. Little Rock has a decent airport with few direct flights, so commercial to SA can take almost as long as driving. Not looking to set the skies on fire, but if it is something we can do together then it might be a decent hobby for us to head into retirement and be able to see the kids on our schedule.

I never realized the many kinds of planes, certifications and such until I started looking. It can be a bit overwhelming for sure. Until my buddy Bob started talking about his Mooney, I would have assumed it and a Cherokee were about the same plane and price. I will keep asking new guy questions until we make a decision, but thanks again.

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Have you considered shared ownership and/or a flight club near you? I've read that you can often get access to a much better plane that way with much more manageable costs.

Yes, I have thought about it. We have one about 15 min away and that was who my "flight experience" was with. I think most of their planes are Cherokees and 172's, and nothing too fancy or complicated. That looked like the most reasonable way get a plane for training other than possibly buying one on a per hour basis. Definitely still in the "do we want to do this" planning stages now.

My only fear on a flying club is it turns out to be more like the BS of a timeshare. Costs more than advertised, random assessments, aircraft never available, etc.

What have y'all experiences been like?

How does insurance work if it isn't for a specific aircraft?

Flying clubs are a great deal if the planes are available. If you can find one that has a couple cross country machines like a Mooney or a Cutlass or even an Arrow, those are usually available more than the trainers. Once you have your private, you can start traveling on your own terms, especially if you can count on the fact you'll be delayed a lot of times.

Maybe head up to Oshkosh in a few weeks and walk around the North 40 to really see what's out there?

I think your assessment may a bit off base. I've seen two types of flying clubs - true clubs and schools with 'member rates'. Both bring major value.

True flying clubs, like the A&M Flying Club, is a true club where expenses are shared. Nobody is making a profit.

Sometimes flight schools have member rates where you pay a monthly fee for a reduced renting rate. The fee pays off if you rent above X number of hours.

While working through a PPL, renting is exponentially less expensive than the cost of owning an aircraft.

Thanks guys.

Researching/ learning about PPL and flying seems like trying to learn about a secret society. There's pieces of info here and there that I'm sure makes sense once you start down the path. As someone who doesn't know, it's an enigma and really puts a lot of doubt into if I really want to do so.

Not sure if that was directed at me, but I think I can be more precise. There are equity clubs and non equity clubs. Equity clubs are more like co-ownership. Think of a golf course that can assess its members because they need to redo the clubhouse. If a motor needs to be overhauled and the reserve isn't enough, everyone may need to contribute more. You can sell your equity interest if you want out.

Non-equity clubs are separate tax exempt organizations (like the Texas Flying Club, fka Texas A&M Flying Club) that can adjust membership rates but don't have the ability to assess all the members because they want to buy a new plane or overhaul a motor or add avionics. They must operate out of membership dues and reserves. They can borrow money or increase dues, but members are usually free to leave at that point.

Some flight schools may give "member" rates, but I don't consider that a club since non members can still fly the planes.

Either way, flight schools with discounts or non-equity clubs can be great, especially when you're learning and need a simple plane to beat up before you start actually traveling.

Good luck. Come to Oshkosh in a few weeks if you want the hook set quickly.