Data center

18,029 Views | 249 Replies | Last: 18 hrs ago by Serious Lee
David_Puddy
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jja79 said:

Live near several in the Phoenix area where water is much more scarce. If you didn't know what they are you wouldn't pay any attention to them. No noise, they use closed loop chilling systems (so I'm told) and once they opened there's no additional traffic. I met a guy from Amarillo that's working on one a couple of miles away and he's making bank.


This has been my experience as well. I just did a roof on a 40k sq ft ground up data center where there were already 2 other functional data center buildings right next to it. Driving by, unless you know that building is a data center, it looks just like any other concrete tilt wall building in a major city. Not any traffic or noise and it sits right by multiple apartments and other businesses.
Who?mikejones!
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BrazosDog02 said:

Jbob04 said:

Spoken like a true city slicker who lives on a quarter acre lot

This is pretty much been what I see when I hear people talking about 'decibels' and 'studies' and 'these aren't a big deal'. You can really tell who has never owned land or lived in the country. They just don't understand and I get that they are largely clueless. It's a tough fight.


I grew up in the country. I grew up on acreage.

The reality is that society needs these data centers everywhere, in the cities and in the country. It's not your place to tell your neighbors what they can and cannot do with their land.
jagsdad
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TxAG#2011 said:

BrazosDog02 said:

Jbob04 said:

Spoken like a true city slicker who lives on a quarter acre lot

This is pretty much been what I see when I hear people talking about 'decibels' and 'studies' and 'these aren't a big deal'. You can really tell who has never owned land or lived in the country. They just don't understand and I get that they are largely clueless. It's a tough fight.


Rural America has enjoyed the benefit of massive subsidation programs and tax breaks for the last century and has been steadily decaying for decades.

Maybe it's time you guys just carry some of the load. We city folk can't do everything.

You might remember saying that next time you stick a bite of steak in your mouth, or yell at your wife to make you a "sammich"
BrazosDog02
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Who?mikejones! said:

BrazosDog02 said:

Jbob04 said:

Spoken like a true city slicker who lives on a quarter acre lot

This is pretty much been what I see when I hear people talking about 'decibels' and 'studies' and 'these aren't a big deal'. You can really tell who has never owned land or lived in the country. They just don't understand and I get that they are largely clueless. It's a tough fight.


I grew up in the country. I grew up on acreage.

The reality is that society needs these data centers everywhere, in the cities and in the country. It's not your place to tell your neighbors what they can and cannot do with their land.


Don't derail the conversation. No one is talking about that. We're talking about regulating the dog **** out of the businesses that move in for light and noise pollution. You can't stop them from moving in, but you can force regulate their emission.

You can sell your house in the city to a fireworks enthusiast but he can't fire of bottle rockets just because he owns it. Same idea.
JB99
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Jbob04 said:

Spoken like a true city slicker who lives on a quarter acre lot


Really. I would not have guessed these rural folks were that soft
jja79
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Don't we need data centers for point of sale, pay at the pump, Netflix, Amazon, navigation and a lot of things even opponents might use every day?
Who?mikejones!
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BrazosDog02 said:

Who?mikejones! said:

BrazosDog02 said:

Jbob04 said:

Spoken like a true city slicker who lives on a quarter acre lot

This is pretty much been what I see when I hear people talking about 'decibels' and 'studies' and 'these aren't a big deal'. You can really tell who has never owned land or lived in the country. They just don't understand and I get that they are largely clueless. It's a tough fight.


I grew up in the country. I grew up on acreage.

The reality is that society needs these data centers everywhere, in the cities and in the country. It's not your place to tell your neighbors what they can and cannot do with their land.


Don't derail the conversation. No one is talking about that. We're talking about regulating the dog **** out of the businesses that move in for light and noise pollution. You can't stop them from moving in, but you can force regulate their emission.

You can sell your house in the city to a fireworks enthusiast but he can't fire of bottle rockets just because he owns it. Same idea.


They shouldn't be under any restrictions that any other business wouldn't have to follow.

Im tired of any business getting special deals from the govt. Every business should operate under the same set of rules. No special requirements, no tax breaks, no special tax additions or required charity, no requirement to build housing or develop infrastructure not directly related to its operations.

You want to make it tough for data centers to exist. Fine. But, whatever extra rules you impose on them should be imposed on every other business. If its good for the goose, its good for the gander.
fulshearAg96
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BrazosDog02 said:

There is an uptick of crime associated with the laborers that are working there. It's not uncommon to see 3 guys cutting a data center fence and hauling off with a gooseneck trailer or throwing materials into a box truck at 2-3am. During early stages on site security doesn't exist and battery powered camera locations are known by the laborers.

dear lord... is this specific to data centers?
Burdizzo
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fulshearAg96 said:

BrazosDog02 said:

There is an uptick of crime associated with the laborers that are working there. It's not uncommon to see 3 guys cutting a data center fence and hauling off with a gooseneck trailer or throwing materials into a box truck at 2-3am. During early stages on site security doesn't exist and battery powered camera locations are known by the laborers.

dear lord... is this specific to data centers?



If you think those stories are bad, just wait until you hear the stories about the meth heads tampering with anhydrous ammonia equipment
Burdizzo
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Who?mikejones! said:

BrazosDog02 said:

Who?mikejones! said:

BrazosDog02 said:

Jbob04 said:

Spoken like a true city slicker who lives on a quarter acre lot

This is pretty much been what I see when I hear people talking about 'decibels' and 'studies' and 'these aren't a big deal'. You can really tell who has never owned land or lived in the country. They just don't understand and I get that they are largely clueless. It's a tough fight.


I grew up in the country. I grew up on acreage.

The reality is that society needs these data centers everywhere, in the cities and in the country. It's not your place to tell your neighbors what they can and cannot do with their land.


Don't derail the conversation. No one is talking about that. We're talking about regulating the dog **** out of the businesses that move in for light and noise pollution. You can't stop them from moving in, but you can force regulate their emission.

You can sell your house in the city to a fireworks enthusiast but he can't fire of bottle rockets just because he owns it. Same idea.


They shouldn't be under any restrictions that any other business wouldn't have to follow.

Im tired of any business getting special deals from the govt. Every business should operate under the same set of rules. No special requirements, no tax breaks, no special tax additions or required charity, no requirement to build housing or develop infrastructure not directly related to its operations.

You want to make it tough for data centers to exist. Fine. But, whatever extra rules you impose on them should be imposed on every other business. If its good for the goose, its good for the gander.



So no ag valuation for property taxes.
northeastag
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I'm still trying to figure out why we need so darned many of these data centers throughout the country.
Keller6Ag91
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northeastag said:

I'm still trying to figure out why we need so darned many of these data centers throughout the country.


Projected AI demand.

10+ years ago, data centers were being built for the move to Cloud. Didn't make the news then.
Gig'Em and God Bless,

JB'91
YouBet
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bobbranco said:

Between a soft whisper and less than classroom chatter.

https://cdn.prod.website-files.com/66981385a8d86d512e289614/66a80f736896e7b6adda5f21_2024-07-26%20MARA%20Sound%20Study%20Results%20-%20Absolute%20Noise%20Control.pdf










Figure 1.1 seems like bull***** We are presented with a graduated sound level chart and then expected to believe that sounds goes from red (140) all the way down to green (40-50) immediatley? I would assume that the impact overlay on the map would show a graduated lessening of sound the further away from the primary source. Instead the sound cuts off immediately right at the border of the BTC plant.
Who?mikejones!
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No property taxes would be my preference

But no, in the end, id prefer every one have three lowest taxes possible, but all have the same burden.
HollywoodBQ
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YouBet said:

We are presented with a graduated sound level chart and then expected to believe that sounds goes from red (140) all the way down to green (40-50) immediatley? I would assume that the impact overlay on the map would show a graduated lessening of sound the further away from the primary source. Instead the sound cuts off immediately right at the border of the BTC plant.
Walls man... Walls.

I've been to Switch in Las Vegas quite a few times. Their data centers have a giant wall around them. At least 15 feet high, probably 20 feet high.

No different than what you see for sound abatement on freeways in Houston (as an example).

You can Google Maps it yourself but here is a rendering of what the Switch campus in Las Vegas looks like:


bobbranco
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YouBet said:

bobbranco said:

Between a soft whisper and less than classroom chatter.

https://cdn.prod.website-files.com/66981385a8d86d512e289614/66a80f736896e7b6adda5f21_2024-07-26%20MARA%20Sound%20Study%20Results%20-%20Absolute%20Noise%20Control.pdf










Figure 1.1 seems like bull***** We are presented with a graduated sound level chart and then expected to believe that sounds goes from red (140) all the way down to green (40-50) immediatley? I would assume that the impact overlay on the map would show a graduated lessening of sound the further away from the primary source. Instead the sound cuts off immediately right at the border of the BTC plant.

The decibel graph is linear but in reality the decibel scale is logarithmic.
GeorgiAg
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The big problem is when Skynet's murder robots start getting produced, those who live near these things will get it first.
YouBet
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Walls?! Are we going to put farmers in cages now too?

I guess I've always been dubious of a concrete wall actually cutting sound that much. So it can cut 100 decibels immediately?
YouBet
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I actually somehow missed the second picture on that post with the average decibel level readings.

Also, I don't appreciate you bringing complex math into this discussion. Take it to the Math board, nerd.
bobbranco
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Coates said:

BrazosDog02 said:

bobbranco said:

Between a soft whisper and less than classroom chatter.

https://cdn.prod.website-files.com/66981385a8d86d512e289614/66a80f736896e7b6adda5f21_2024-07-26%20MARA%20Sound%20Study%20Results%20-%20Absolute%20Noise%20Control.pdf









This the bullcrap meter. It's what folks use to say its OK and they don't have to do anything because it's within guidelines. Unfortunately, most people using these kinds of 'studies' are quite uneducated on what it means in reality. Nuisance noise, regardless of being in 'guidelines' is still exactly that.

Just to help the uneducated make more sense of the point, a leaf blow running full speed 470' away is under 50db. Now, tell someone that hearing that 24/7/365 that it is "OK".

You have to remember that the yahoos running these studies do so for no other reason than to justify doing nothing.

It's also a study on a bitcoin mining facility, not a data center, so the study isn't relevant to this conversation.

And to reply to your other post about who has never owned land, and that we are clueless and don't understand, seems to be the reverse. You are not the guardians of rural America, your gripe is with the land owners who sold, not the person who rightfully purchased the land and can now rightfully build a data center.

I agree it's a tough fight, most is nonsense like people thinking a bitcoin/crypto mining facility is a data center. Or that your dog will get butt cancer from a data center, it's unreal what people believe.


Bitcoin mining facilities create more noise than datacenters. I was unable to find any noise studies for datacenters. If you have any to share, please share to compare.
bobbranco
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YouBet said:

I actually somehow missed the second picture on that post with the average decibel level readings.

Also, I don't appreciate you bringing complex math into this discussion. Take it to the Math board, nerd.

LOL. Noise is all about bels.

To be clear...

JB99
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So ironic. People moved out to the country to get away from government oversight and regulations. Freedom to do what they want with their land. Now it's like they want to shut the door behind them. Only people that can use the land have to be just like them. Ag only. Freedoms for me but not for thee. I mean adding more government regulations always works out well.

You chose to live there. Land was cheap. There's no zoning laws, that's the risk you took. It's like buying a house in a neighborhood with no HOA and then screaming bloody murder when your neighbor won't mow their lawn.
mm98
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When did DCs transition from self-contained power to the scale they are now? Back when I was in a different industry, most all DCs had small gas turbines on site, usually a Solar, Cat, or small Aero under 10MWs. Some even just had old recip engines since they burn anything and were incredibly reliable.

Are these newer sites (some of you citing 400MWs and 1000W+MWs) building on site generation for themselves and still self-contained, or are they having to siphon off existing generation? Or is it a combination of both?
Burdizzo
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Who?mikejones! said:

No property taxes would be my preference

But no, in the end, id prefer every one have three lowest taxes possible, but all have the same burden.



People in hell want ice water too, I guess
YouBet
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mm98 said:

When did DCs transition from self-contained power to the scale they are now? Back when I was in a different industry, most all DCs had small gas turbines on site, usually a Solar, Cat, or small Aero under 10MWs. Some even just had old recip engines since they burn anything and were incredibly reliable.

Are these newer sites (some of you citing 400MWs and 1000W+MWs) building on site generation for themselves and still self-contained, or are they having to siphon off existing generation? Or is it a combination of both?


This partially goes back to my earlier question which it doesn't seem like anyone has the answer to. I listened to a parade of people on CNBC for weeks telling the audience that these data centers would actually help the grid and push excess supply back into it, but all I've heard since is that they are going to further drain the grid.

I do not know what the truth is.
BrazosDog02
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YouBet said:

bobbranco said:

Between a soft whisper and less than classroom chatter.

https://cdn.prod.website-files.com/66981385a8d86d512e289614/66a80f736896e7b6adda5f21_2024-07-26%20MARA%20Sound%20Study%20Results%20-%20Absolute%20Noise%20Control.pdf










Figure 1.1 seems like bull***** We are presented with a graduated sound level chart and then expected to believe that sounds goes from red (140) all the way down to green (40-50) immediatley? I would assume that the impact overlay on the map would show a graduated lessening of sound the further away from the primary source. Instead the sound cuts off immediately right at the border of the BTC plant.


dBA is a specific scale in decibels that applies A weighting filtering. Long story short, it's a filter applied to better represent how humans hear or perceive the noise. There is noise data centers emit that you can't even hear or perceive.

It is still a logarithmic scale. Due to frequency attenuation over distance, small changes at the source have large impacts at distance. That's why it's unacceptable for any facility to have audible noise half a mile away, regardless of its dBA measurement.

Where I am, at night, ambient noise levels are 25-30dbA if the wind isn't howling through. So when someone presents a chart that shows that level to be 40-50 and then tells you it's within spec, it's hilarious and complete bullcrap. They are using that to leverage doing nothing rather than acknowledge the fact it's a problem.

That's also why I say people who don't live in the country don't know that. My friends house in town is 40db inside hi living room. It's 50db outside in the yard at night. City dwellers have no idea what quiet really means. It's also why these studies use bullcrap comparisons to psychologically buffer and condition the lie "it's 50 decibels, like being close to a babbling Brook in nature". lol.
mm98
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YouBet said:

mm98 said:

When did DCs transition from self-contained power to the scale they are now? Back when I was in a different industry, most all DCs had small gas turbines on site, usually a Solar, Cat, or small Aero under 10MWs. Some even just had old recip engines since they burn anything and were incredibly reliable.

Are these newer sites (some of you citing 400MWs and 1000W+MWs) building on site generation for themselves and still self-contained, or are they having to siphon off existing generation? Or is it a combination of both?


This partially goes back to my earlier question which it doesn't seem like anyone has the answer to. I listened to a parade of people on CNBC for weeks telling the audience that these data centers would actually help the grid and push excess supply back into it, but all I've heard since is that they are going to further drain the grid.

I do not know what the truth is.

I can go back to some old colleagues and ask, but its my understanding due to acreage required to build one, a lot of these are going up on remote areas with limited infrastructure and the plan is to continue with on site generation. Grid tie ins seem to be the bigger issue.

On the water debate, my company pursues a lot of the PVF materials and its a mixture of SS and iron. Very low spec stuff, and largely self contained. It doesn't have to be high purity water with complex filtration, just recirculating cooling water.
Who?mikejones!
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Of course. Can I not have a want? I never actually think govt would treat all business the same either, but I still want that.

Absent that, id be fine with offering agricultural exemptions as they are today.

Im speaking more towards industrial and commercial enterprises, the ones govt likes to incentivize to come and then ask for special items in return.

However, if a data center has a noise restrain or lighting restraint imposed on it, I don't see whay other business in the community, or yes, even farms wouldn't need to follow to same standards
YouBet
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mm98 said:

YouBet said:

mm98 said:

When did DCs transition from self-contained power to the scale they are now? Back when I was in a different industry, most all DCs had small gas turbines on site, usually a Solar, Cat, or small Aero under 10MWs. Some even just had old recip engines since they burn anything and were incredibly reliable.

Are these newer sites (some of you citing 400MWs and 1000W+MWs) building on site generation for themselves and still self-contained, or are they having to siphon off existing generation? Or is it a combination of both?


This partially goes back to my earlier question which it doesn't seem like anyone has the answer to. I listened to a parade of people on CNBC for weeks telling the audience that these data centers would actually help the grid and push excess supply back into it, but all I've heard since is that they are going to further drain the grid.

I do not know what the truth is.

I can go back to some old colleagues and ask, but its my understanding due to acreage required to build one, a lot of these are going up on remote areas with limited infrastructure and the plan is to continue with on site generation. Grid tie ins seem to be the bigger issue.

On the water debate, my company pursues a lot of the PVF materials and its a mixture of SS and iron. Very low spec stuff, and largely self contained. It doesn't have to be high purity water with complex filtration, just recirculating cooling water.


So, isolated, self sustaining power generation with no impact either way to the grid....?
mm98
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YouBet said:

mm98 said:

YouBet said:

mm98 said:

When did DCs transition from self-contained power to the scale they are now? Back when I was in a different industry, most all DCs had small gas turbines on site, usually a Solar, Cat, or small Aero under 10MWs. Some even just had old recip engines since they burn anything and were incredibly reliable.

Are these newer sites (some of you citing 400MWs and 1000W+MWs) building on site generation for themselves and still self-contained, or are they having to siphon off existing generation? Or is it a combination of both?


This partially goes back to my earlier question which it doesn't seem like anyone has the answer to. I listened to a parade of people on CNBC for weeks telling the audience that these data centers would actually help the grid and push excess supply back into it, but all I've heard since is that they are going to further drain the grid.

I do not know what the truth is.

I can go back to some old colleagues and ask, but its my understanding due to acreage required to build one, a lot of these are going up on remote areas with limited infrastructure and the plan is to continue with on site generation. Grid tie ins seem to be the bigger issue.

On the water debate, my company pursues a lot of the PVF materials and its a mixture of SS and iron. Very low spec stuff, and largely self contained. It doesn't have to be high purity water with complex filtration, just recirculating cooling water.


So, isolated, self sustaining power generation with no impact either way to the grid....?


Poorly choice of sentence structure there.

I mean most DCs will still produce their own generation (gas turbines mostly, with a lot of solar acreage nearby too, and on site battery backup). From there, the main issue outside their property is connecting into the grid, and grid capacity. Most of my knowledge is on the generation side, and I'm not very knowledgeable on grid challenges that may exist.

The schedule for all this to happen is still a question, too. I think GE is backed up until ~2030 to deliver all the gas turbines they have in their backlog. I don't know about Siemens or Mitsubishi/Kawasaki.

CaptTex
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This is an attitude that has been displayed in my vicinity in a very pompous and ignorant manner, while I was at work of all places, gotta start asking about that "culture" thing more often. You don't have to have sympathy for anyone, not even empathy but this ridiculous assertion of "lets cut the money off and watch these stupid hillbillies suffer" or "we carry them too much as it is" is just wrong.

On the basis of farm subsidies I can't offer much knowledge, other than a vague feeling that those that receive the most benefit are the larger operations and since the farm bills conception(Agricultural Adjustment Act of 1933) American farmers have given up a great amount of autonomy. Large operators get the benefit, small operators make it until they can't or end up punching out and we get a data center or solar farm. It's their property, I cannot bark at them about a damn thing.

Getting back to my original point, using www.ruralfunding.org/insights you can search by county the amount of federal spending per capita. Brazos county is at $8,147, Burleson county is at $7,437 and Grimes County is at $6,546. Meanwhile, Bexar county is at $8,623, Travis county is at $10,864, Dallas county is at $10,617, Tarrant County is at $10,912 and Harris county strangely is at $5,335. Not sure what is going on with Harris, the population is no different than Dallas/Tarrant counties combined so I suspect some shenanigans are occurring there. Admittedly that is just federal per capita spending, and the information is from 2024 and just like everything else I'm sure has gone up. I am having trouble trying to get a urban/rural number for Texas per capita spending, so the best I can do is $4,617 but there has to be better numbers out there. It would appear that the larger urban areas get a lot of the money, because you represent a larger expenditure, forget efficiency or the challenges associated with infrastructure expansion, you're trying to fit a $100 dollar foot into a $60 dollar shoe and telling the employee of the shoe store he's wrong for wearing a $30 dollar shoe.

Roads are another topic that are lumped in with this thing, road tax is charged on every gallon of fuel sold in Texas, both state and federal. Higher amounts of traffic wear a roadway down faster, it needs repair/replacement or expansion at some point and we aren't laying down asphalt cathedrals in Houston or Austin, they're made of concrete. Granted it is a good material to build roadways out of, but its expensive on the front end, the middle and the back end. Letting something stagnate, such as a CR or FM, probably has ill effects as well. In my experience(driving all over this state) I have always encountered poorer roadway maintenance and general conditions in the bigger cities, things wear out too quick and its too expensive to replace so you band-aid it. The majority of tax expenditures for roadways are used in urban areas, since ya know, more people live there. Glad to know that I pay all that fuel tax so *****s like you can ***** about how living in a rural community is a drain on resources.

Let's add water to the mix, since this is a data center themed thread. There are 4 major projects that are operational or are planning to be, to move ground water from those ****ty rural areas to larger urban areas. Vista Ridge Regional Water Supply Project, moves water from Burleson County to Bexar County....weird. Recharge Water Supply Project, moves water from Lee County to Georgetown/Williamson County...weird. Upwell Water Project, tentative but moves water from Lee/Burleson Counties to a vaguely worded "Central Texas Urban Region"......weird. Finally, Alliance Regional Water Authority Project moves water from Caldwell County to I-35 Corridor cities such as Kyle/San Marcos, probably Austin too, but can't admit that. These Projects are asking for anywhere between 35,000 acre feet to 100,000 acre feet of water annually, that is a tremendous drain on a resource that is necessary for life, agriculture and oil/gas production. Granted you can get smug and say something alone the lines of "current rule of capture law states we can do whatever we want", but that's a weird way to say you're wrong and someone else is making millions off of an agreement your local government made to prop up a ridiculous population density.

I chose Brazos/Burleson/Grimes counties because they are central to me, but a cursory glance says most rural counties are a respectable amount lower with Federal per capita spending than any county that holds a large urban area. It would appear that this notion of "we already carry them" is nothing more than someone pissing on somebody else because they're too close to them, happens when you're living that close to each other I guess. I have no problem with anyone who lives in a city, there are benefits to it, but its a strange thing to look out the window of your glass house and throw rocks. Both areas need each other for things, and shockingly, these things cost money. Having said that its not about money, it's about the same **** that has been going on for as long as I've been able to vote for the last 16 years, you want to be right.

GeorgiAg
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northeastag said:

I'm still trying to figure out why we need so darned many of these data centers throughout the country.

You haven't seen this yet?

HumpitPuryear
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Trump recently issued some order that DCs would be required to provide their own generation. I don't recall if that was an EO or if it really had much teeth to it. Trump, and a lot of others, are pushing DCs towards running on SMRs (small modular reactors). We are in an arms race with China on SMRs and they are a priority of the Trump administration.

Expect China to wage war on the social media front on this as it becomes more public, just as they are now on DCs in general. If you think DCs are controversial now, just wait until SMRs enter the chat. China will be ginning up plenty of FUD around SMRs. It's important to remember that a lot of this publicity is not grassroots but rather generated by our enemies, with plenty of participation from the usual useful idiots.
bobbranco
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If the powerplants were adjacent to Pecan Plantation instead of at the doorstep to the meth camps at Mitchell Bend...

Pig farms, slaughterhouses, and chicken farms make noise in the rural areas.
HollywoodBQ
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YouBet said:

Walls?! Are we going to put farmers in cages now too?

I guess I've always been dubious of a concrete wall actually cutting sound that much. So it can cut 100 decibels immediately?

I have no idea. I've never tried listening through a wall.

Oh wait... when I lived in a townhouse and my neighbor was recording an album, I did hear a lot of Jimmy Bain's bass guitar through the wall as they were working on the tracks.

 
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