I didn't ask about Trump. I asked what you would do

TxAgPreacher said:

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Rossticus said:

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TxAgPreacher said:

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Teslag said:

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TxAgPreacher said:

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Teslag said:

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It's not our war to end.

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Yes it is.

When you see a bully picking on a small kid with a lot of fight, but he stands no chance you break it up.

It's in our interest to say enough is enough.

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Ya but you generally don't end it by telling the small kid to lay there until the bully is done beating the **** out of him. Then blame the kid for it.

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Bad analogy.

It's more like the small kid just took a swing at you for trying breaking it up.

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Understandable when you tell the little kid that the bully gets to keep the shoes and lunch money he stole from you but it's ok because he promises he won't do it again.

If you want to end this then there has to be something in place that gives Ukraine a reason not to feel like they're just selling out for a slow death instead of a fighting chance (slim as it might be).

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Ukraine is not in a position to make terms. Only we are do you want WW3? Then they arent getting the land back. That was our fault. Bidens really.

But at the end of the day you break up the fighting before more people die needlessly over a war that is already over. Without US boots on the ground its over.

Time to make for peace. Sometimes when you get jumped in the ally you break up the fight and live to fight another day even if the bully took your wallet and your watch. Just the reality of life. Time to move on.

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What makes you think Russia wants lasting peace? And if they don't?

Teslag said:

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TxAgPreacher said:

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Rossticus said:

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TxAgPreacher said:

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Teslag said:

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TxAgPreacher said:

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Teslag said:

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It's not our war to end.

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Yes it is.

When you see a bully picking on a small kid with a lot of fight, but he stands no chance you break it up.

It's in our interest to say enough is enough.

---

Ya but you generally don't end it by telling the small kid to lay there until the bully is done beating the **** out of him. Then blame the kid for it.

---

Bad analogy.

It's more like the small kid just took a swing at you for trying breaking it up.

---

Understandable when you tell the little kid that the bully gets to keep the shoes and lunch money he stole from you but it's ok because he promises he won't do it again.

If you want to end this then there has to be something in place that gives Ukraine a reason not to feel like they're just selling out for a slow death instead of a fighting chance (slim as it might be).

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Ukraine is not in a position to make terms. Only we are do you want WW3? Then they arent getting the land back. That was our fault. Bidens really.

But at the end of the day you break up the fighting before more people die needlessly over a war that is already over. Without US boots on the ground its over.

Time to make for peace. Sometimes when you get jumped in the ally you break up the fight and live to fight another day even if the bully took your wallet and your watch. Just the reality of life. Time to move on.

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What makes you think Russia wants lasting peace? And if they don't?

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Irrelevant. Now is time to end the bloodshed.

Everything else is secondary.

Yes we don't want to be caught with out pants down again. None off that is productive right now on stopping people from dying RIGHT NOW.

Teslag said:

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TxAgPreacher said:

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Rossticus said:

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TxAgPreacher said:

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Teslag said:

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TxAgPreacher said:

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Teslag said:

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It's not our war to end.

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Yes it is.

When you see a bully picking on a small kid with a lot of fight, but he stands no chance you break it up.

It's in our interest to say enough is enough.

---

Ya but you generally don't end it by telling the small kid to lay there until the bully is done beating the **** out of him. Then blame the kid for it.

---

Bad analogy.

It's more like the small kid just took a swing at you for trying breaking it up.

---

Understandable when you tell the little kid that the bully gets to keep the shoes and lunch money he stole from you but it's ok because he promises he won't do it again.

If you want to end this then there has to be something in place that gives Ukraine a reason not to feel like they're just selling out for a slow death instead of a fighting chance (slim as it might be).

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Ukraine is not in a position to make terms. Only we are do you want WW3? Then they arent getting the land back. That was our fault. Bidens really.

But at the end of the day you break up the fighting before more people die needlessly over a war that is already over. Without US boots on the ground its over.

Time to make for peace. Sometimes when you get jumped in the ally you break up the fight and live to fight another day even if the bully took your wallet and your watch. Just the reality of life. Time to move on.

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What makes you think Russia wants lasting peace? And if they don't?

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Then I guess EU better start cutting social programs

Who?mikejones! said:

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I didn't ask about Trump. I asked what you would do

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Id arm Ukraine to the teeth and let the Russians know, in private and public, that I'd do so until they want to end it along current lines. And I'd tell Ukraine that we will not give them any more offensive aid nor support any additional offensives if they intend to drive on and push to retake lost lands.

And when it ends Ukraine recognizes it's lost lands as Russian going forward. And in return Ukraine is allowed to join NATO. And this war is done now and in the future.

rootube said:

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Who?mikejones! said:

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Teslag said:

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Putin wants far more than what they have now

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Okay. So what. Then they can both be considered losers. Or both be considered winners. Its doesnt matter to me

Its pretty clear to me that, based on the response from today's meeting, if the war ended today with Russia maintaining what it has today, putin would be a winner despite whatever he thinks of the situation.


Its also clear Zelensky wants what he can not have- his land back. Thats gone and it won't come back without american or european boots on the ground

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That's not clear at all. He wants security guarantees so he won't be back here again in four years. Like the last two times he made deals with the US and Russia.

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Hes not getting any security deals, so he can move past that.

rootube said:

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2004FIGHTINTXAG said:

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Teslag said:

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2004FIGHTINTXAG said:

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Teslag said:

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Hubert J. Farnsworth said:

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Teslag said:

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I think it's clear Putin completely miscalculated which president to invade under. Had Trump been president in 2022 he'd have just berated Zelenskyy into instantly surrendering the entire country without a fight.

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Dude, you are usually right about a lot of stuff, but you are overly emotional about the war in Ukraine.

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It's not emotional at all. And again stop attacking posters instead of their arguments so we don't get this thread locked again.

What have you seen out of Trump to think he would threaten Russia with any consequences in 2022?

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He kicked the crap out of ISIS in a year and nearly went to war with Little Rocket Man during his first term. He was a deterrent, which is why Putin stayed at bay, so your hypothetical argument is moot anyway.

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Except Putin literally attacked an American base while he was president. And did nothing to respond.

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Two separate arguments and a complete logical fallacy.

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I can add some more. There is strong evidence that Russia paid bounties to the Afghans for killing US servicemen in Afganastan. There is strong evidence that Russia recently harmed US state department employees in Cuba and Europe. Russia is our enemy. There is no doubt about that fact. Every single time we have fought a war since WWII it was against an adversary armed with Russian weapons. Do you think thats a coincidence?

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No, I don't think it's a coincidence, but I also don't think we're innocent with regards to our historical conflict with Russia. We've done a lot to piss them off as well. Use a little mirror imaging. Acknowledge that maybe we screw around a little too much in their hemisphere.

Max Stonetrail said:

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I am appalled at the Zelenskyy defenders on here. Almost 200 people starred the post calling him a hero.

Where have you been and do you actually know anything?

Anyone with eyes open knows Ukraine is a wreck. I have a friend from Ukraine who is able to move about. The eastern part is devastated. Complete war torn. I have no idea what the long term solution is for whatever is left there. The western part is beaches and first world condition. His daughter lives there. They are not even concerned about Russia bombing the western part. Three quarters of this is theater to gain US dollars and Zelenskyy is the Biden of Ukraine. He is grifting millions.

Trump called him out today. This is truth. This is reality. I wish it was different and better, but this is where we are.

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So you are appalled that people disagree with you.

What other weapon systems would you send to ukraine that we haven't already sent?

Teslag said:

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TxAgPreacher said:

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Rossticus said:

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TxAgPreacher said:

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Teslag said:

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TxAgPreacher said:

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Teslag said:

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It's not our war to end.

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Yes it is.

When you see a bully picking on a small kid with a lot of fight, but he stands no chance you break it up.

It's in our interest to say enough is enough.

---

Ya but you generally don't end it by telling the small kid to lay there until the bully is done beating the **** out of him. Then blame the kid for it.

---

Bad analogy.

It's more like the small kid just took a swing at you for trying breaking it up.

---

Understandable when you tell the little kid that the bully gets to keep the shoes and lunch money he stole from you but it's ok because he promises he won't do it again.

If you want to end this then there has to be something in place that gives Ukraine a reason not to feel like they're just selling out for a slow death instead of a fighting chance (slim as it might be).

---

Ukraine is not in a position to make terms. Only we are do you want WW3? Then they arent getting the land back. That was our fault. Bidens really.

But at the end of the day you break up the fighting before more people die needlessly over a war that is already over. Without US boots on the ground its over.

Time to make for peace. Sometimes when you get jumped in the ally you break up the fight and live to fight another day even if the bully took your wallet and your watch. Just the reality of life. Time to move on.

---

What makes you think Russia wants lasting peace? And if they don't?

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if Putin broke a peace agreement brokered by the USA he would be starting WW3. We would be forced to defend the peace agreement.

Is the Uke army all volunteer like the U.S?

He's not getting security guaranties. There is a reason he is not getting them, that Ukraine has never gotten them, why they are not in NATO and will never be.

Ukraine, for all the cheerleading on here, is a corrupt country with a confusing past and uncertain future. Putting ourselves in direct across border conflict with Russia is not a good idea. It has worked better when there are peripheral countries where we can mess around without directly engaging one another.

Ukraine serves that purpose and has since 1991.

Teslag said:

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Who?mikejones! said:

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Its not the same world.

How would you help end this conflict if you were president?

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Well for starters I wouldn't lay my cards down in the media at all. And if I did I'd let both sides know that they will have to give up something. And I sure as **** wouldn't play the innocent mediator that doesn't blame either side.

Russia doesn't have a lot of cards either. And yet we keep handling them with kid gloves. Trump once said that he'd get a deal and said that if Russia didn't play along he'd arm Ukraine to the teeth. And now he literally can't say a single negative thing about them.

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Russia has plenty of cards. More than Ukraine. They have nukes. They'll keep throwing endless bodies at the fight and they already mobilized their industrial complex. They also now have China and North Korea as friends.

TommyBrady said:

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Is the Uke army all volunteer like the U.S?

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Not even close

Biden pardoned his s son and family going back to 2014

Gee….i wonder why?

Also, Trump was impeached because of a phone call to Ukraine while he was Prez.

Gee, I wonder why?

2004FIGHTINTXAG said:

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rootube said:

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2004FIGHTINTXAG said:

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Teslag said:

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2004FIGHTINTXAG said:

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Teslag said:

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Hubert J. Farnsworth said:

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Teslag said:

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I think it's clear Putin completely miscalculated which president to invade under. Had Trump been president in 2022 he'd have just berated Zelenskyy into instantly surrendering the entire country without a fight.

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Dude, you are usually right about a lot of stuff, but you are overly emotional about the war in Ukraine.

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It's not emotional at all. And again stop attacking posters instead of their arguments so we don't get this thread locked again.

What have you seen out of Trump to think he would threaten Russia with any consequences in 2022?

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He kicked the crap out of ISIS in a year and nearly went to war with Little Rocket Man during his first term. He was a deterrent, which is why Putin stayed at bay, so your hypothetical argument is moot anyway.

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Except Putin literally attacked an American base while he was president. And did nothing to respond.

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Two separate arguments and a complete logical fallacy.

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I can add some more. There is strong evidence that Russia paid bounties to the Afghans for killing US servicemen in Afganastan. There is strong evidence that Russia recently harmed US state department employees in Cuba and Europe. Russia is our enemy. There is no doubt about that fact. Every single time we have fought a war since WWII it was against an adversary armed with Russian weapons. Do you think thats a coincidence?

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No, I don't think it's a coincidence, but I also don't think we're innocent with regards to our historical conflict with Russia. We've done a lot to piss them off as well. Use a little mirror imaging. Acknowledge that maybe we screw around a little too much in their hemisphere.

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That's fair. But to hear some here they are equating Ukraine and Russia. Which is absurd.

2004FIGHTINTXAG said:

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Teslag said:

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Who?mikejones! said:

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Its not the same world.

How would you help end this conflict if you were president?

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Well for starters I wouldn't lay my cards down in the media at all. And if I did I'd let both sides know that they will have to give up something. And I sure as **** wouldn't play the innocent mediator that doesn't blame either side.

Russia doesn't have a lot of cards either. And yet we keep handling them with kid gloves. Trump once said that he'd get a deal and said that if Russia didn't play along he'd arm Ukraine to the teeth. And now he literally can't say a single negative thing about them.

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Russia has plenty of cards. More than Ukraine. They have nukes. They'll keep throwing endless bodies at the fight and they already mobilized their industrial complex. They also now have China and North Korea as friends.

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Russia doesn't have endless bodies. That's a myth. And it's always why they are now having to use North Korean conscripts

TxAgPreacher said:

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Rossticus said:

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TxAgPreacher said:

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Teslag said:

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TxAgPreacher said:

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Teslag said:

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It's not our war to end.

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Yes it is.

When you see a bully picking on a small kid with a lot of fight, but he stands no chance you break it up.

It's in our interest to say enough is enough.

---

Ya but you generally don't end it by telling the small kid to lay there until the bully is done beating the **** out of him. Then blame the kid for it.

---

Bad analogy.

It's more like the small kid just took a swing at you for trying breaking it up.

---

Understandable when you tell the little kid that the bully gets to keep the shoes and lunch money he stole from you but it's ok because he promises he won't do it again.

If you want to end this then there has to be something in place that gives Ukraine a reason not to feel like they're just selling out for a slow death instead of a fighting chance (slim as it might be).

---

Ukraine is not in a position to make terms. Only we are do you want WW3? Then they arent getting the land back. That was our fault. Bidens really.

But at the end of the day you break up the fighting before more people die needlessly over a war that is already over. Without US boots on the ground its over.

Time to make for peace. Sometimes when you get jumped in the ally you break up the fight and live to fight another day even if the bully took your wallet and your watch. Just the reality of life. Time to move on.

---

The belief that WW3 starts if Russia doesn't get what they want is misplaced, in my eyes. However, I agree that Ukraine isn't getting land back. However, one of Russia's current nonnegotiables is to be given all the land Putin claimed annexation over, which is far more than the land he controls.

I think that hard lines of expectation need to be drawn for both sides, not just Ukraine, if you want Ukraine to exhibit trust in US led negotiations. Thus far the tone has been that Russia will get what they insist on and Ukraine will get what we allow. Under that scenario it's understandable why Ukraine feels compelled to continue their fight.

I understand why Trump is handling things the way he is but I also understand why Ukraine feels that they have less to lose by holding out. Ultimately Trump will have to bring both sides to the table and make them both feel like peace is the most rewarding path. Making Putin feel rewarded and validated and Ukraine feel penalized and overlooked won't accomplish that, IMO.

Overall, I think we agree. It's just a matter of what the best way is to get both Russia and Ukraine to see that it's time to end it without either side feeling satisfied.

* EDITS for syntax, punctuation, spelling, etc * Posting from your phone while you cook spaghetti is suboptimal.

AgLiving06 said:

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Psycho Bunny said:

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Teslag said:

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Psycho Bunny said:

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Anyone who supports Ukraine and supports Zalenskky go stand with the dems. It was Zalenskky who campaigned with the dems. So any Ag who says we need to stand with Ukraine and Zelenskky, you are a Democrat.

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So you're saying we should stand with Russia?

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ITS NOT OUR FIGHT.
F RUSSIA F UKRAINE.
LET THEM FIGURE IT OUT. So sick of the Ukraine flag waving morons that feel it's our problem. ITS NOT.

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I don't agree with this take.

If you're telling me for roughly $150 billion we could decimate the Russian army and not lose a single American soldier, I think most would take that deal.

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Why should I want to decimate rank and file Russian soldiers who have done nothing wrong to me?

Are they not human beings too? Or are they all just 'Orcs' as I see the Uke crowd spew out on social media.

Try meeting and running around with a few Russians who have family there and in the military. You might learn something.

TheEternalOptimist said:

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AgLiving06 said:

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Psycho Bunny said:

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Teslag said:

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Psycho Bunny said:

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Anyone who supports Ukraine and supports Zalenskky go stand with the dems. It was Zalenskky who campaigned with the dems. So any Ag who says we need to stand with Ukraine and Zelenskky, you are a Democrat.

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So you're saying we should stand with Russia?

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ITS NOT OUR FIGHT.
F RUSSIA F UKRAINE.
LET THEM FIGURE IT OUT. So sick of the Ukraine flag waving morons that feel it's our problem. ITS NOT.

---

I don't agree with this take.

If you're telling me for roughly $150 billion we could decimate the Russian army and not lose a single American soldier, I think most would take that deal.

---

Why should I want to decimate rank and file Russian soldiers who have done nothing wrong to me?

Are they not human beings too? Or are they all just 'Orcs' as I see the Uke crowd spew out on social media.

Try meeting and running around with a few Russians who have family there and in the military. You might learn something.

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I've seen their blood thirsty savagry on civilians first hand. **** them all. Barbaric trash.

The Trump-Vance-Zelensky meeting wasn't strength or strategyit was a reckless display that weakened America and handed Putin a win. A real conservative foreign policy is about deterrence, alliances, and maintaining global influence, not performative grandstanding. Today, Trump didn't project powerhe projected unreliability.

Calling Ukraine aid a "grift" ignores history. Reagan armed anti-Soviet fighters, Nixon backed Israel, and Eisenhower kept Europe secureall to prevent hostile powers from expanding. If Ukraine were a corrupt puppet, Putin wouldn't have needed to invade. The real "grift" is pretending that letting Russia seize land will somehow lead to peace. Every broken agreementBudapest, Minskproves otherwise. Appeasement has never stopped a dictator, and it won't stop Putin.

This wasn't realism; it was isolationism dressed up as toughness. Nixon didn't strengthen U.S. ties by humiliating allies. Reagan didn't defeat the Soviets by calling them "whiny." Serious leadership means shaping the world to our advantage, not insulting partners on TV. Trump and Vance didn't advance American interests todaythey embarrassed them.

And for all the outrage over aid, here's the reality: U.S. support for Ukraine has been one of the best strategic investments in modern history. A fraction of our defense budgetmost of it spent on American-made weaponshas devastated one of our biggest adversaries without a single U.S. soldier in harm's way. Russia's military has been gutted, their global influence diminished, and their economy crippled. For a cost that's less than what we spent in a single year in Afghanistan, we've neutralized a major threat. That's not charity. That's a bargain.

.

2004FIGHTINTXAG said:

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Teslag said:

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2004FIGHTINTXAG said:

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Teslag said:

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Who?mikejones! said:

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Its not the same world.

How would you help end this conflict if you were president?

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Well for starters I wouldn't lay my cards down in the media at all. And if I did I'd let both sides know that they will have to give up something. And I sure as **** wouldn't play the innocent mediator that doesn't blame either side.

Russia doesn't have a lot of cards either. And yet we keep handling them with kid gloves. Trump once said that he'd get a deal and said that if Russia didn't play along he'd arm Ukraine to the teeth. And now he literally can't say a single negative thing about them.

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Russia has plenty of cards. More than Ukraine. They have nukes. They'll keep throwing endless bodies at the fight and they already mobilized their industrial complex. They also now have China and North Korea as friends.

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Russia doesn't have endless bodies. That's a myth. And it's always why they are now having to use North Korean conscripts

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Ok, they still have nukes, are friends with China and NK, they have more bodies and more weapons. So yeah, they have more cards.

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Nukes aren't much of a card unless you're willing to burn your own country down. And they are even less of a card in a simple land grab. Irradiating the country you want to take over doesn't make a lot is sense. And what will being friends with NK get them? More useless conscripts? More artillery rounds with an exceptionally high dud rate?

Russia is a shell of who they were.

tesleg - we need to see how much of our money is in z bank account. There needs to be an audit. z is a slim ball just like putin.

TheEternalOptimist said:

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AgLiving06 said:

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Psycho Bunny said:

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Teslag said:

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Psycho Bunny said:

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Anyone who supports Ukraine and supports Zalenskky go stand with the dems. It was Zalenskky who campaigned with the dems. So any Ag who says we need to stand with Ukraine and Zelenskky, you are a Democrat.

---

So you're saying we should stand with Russia?

---

ITS NOT OUR FIGHT.
F RUSSIA F UKRAINE.
LET THEM FIGURE IT OUT. So sick of the Ukraine flag waving morons that feel it's our problem. ITS NOT.

---

I don't agree with this take.

If you're telling me for roughly $150 billion we could decimate the Russian army and not lose a single American soldier, I think most would take that deal.

---

Why should I want to decimate rank and file Russian soldiers who have done nothing wrong to me?

Are they not human beings too? Or are they all just 'Orcs' as I see the Uke crowd spew out on social media.

Try meeting and running around with a few Russians who have family there and in the military. You might learn something.

---

I guess if they invaded a neighboring country unprovoked and committed war crimes I'm not going to lose any sleep over it. I'm sure many of the actual Nazis we killed in WWII were lovely people. So what's your point.

I applaud anyone here willing to speak on Ukraine's behalf. It's a useless, futile effort on this board. No minds will be changed. Slava Ukraini and **** Putin.

Teslag said:

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2004FIGHTINTXAG said:

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Teslag said:

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2004FIGHTINTXAG said:

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Teslag said:

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Who?mikejones! said:

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Its not the same world.

How would you help end this conflict if you were president?

---

Well for starters I wouldn't lay my cards down in the media at all. And if I did I'd let both sides know that they will have to give up something. And I sure as **** wouldn't play the innocent mediator that doesn't blame either side.

Russia doesn't have a lot of cards either. And yet we keep handling them with kid gloves. Trump once said that he'd get a deal and said that if Russia didn't play along he'd arm Ukraine to the teeth. And now he literally can't say a single negative thing about them.

---

Russia has plenty of cards. More than Ukraine. They have nukes. They'll keep throwing endless bodies at the fight and they already mobilized their industrial complex. They also now have China and North Korea as friends.

---

Russia doesn't have endless bodies. That's a myth. And it's always why they are now having to use North Korean conscripts

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Ok, they still have nukes, are friends with China and NK, they have more bodies and more weapons. So yeah, they have more cards.

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Nukes aren't much of a card unless you're willing to burn your own country down. And they are even less of a card in a simple land grab. Irradiating the country you want to take over doesn't make a lot is sense. And what will being friends with NK get them? More useless conscripts? More artillery rounds with an exceptionally high dud rate?

Russia is a shell of who they were.

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Nukes aren't a card?…ok. Pretty sure nearly every military academic and senior military officer would disagree.
Do you disagree that Russia has more bodies and weapons?
Do you disagree that Putin and Xi have become closer and that is leverage?

Just acknowledge that Russia has more cards and stop throwing up straw mans.

While I wish it wasn't the case, it seems to me that Russia does indeed possess most of the cards.

They have a much larger population to draw upon and much greater industrial capacity than Ukraine, and contrary to what many said/hoped a couple years ago, Western sanctions don't appear to be having much of an effect upon that.

And while over the last 12-18 months the war has appeared to have devolved into a stalemate, the general trajectory of the fighting since Ukraine's liberation of Kherson has been in Russia's favor. For a while longer the war will continue to appear to be a stalemate, until it doesn't. Ukraine's manpower capacity along the front will eventually crack first, and when it does Russia will have their breakthrough... and then the war will look more like Germany on the Western Front during the first half of 1918... except there will be no doughboys to stop them at the Marne.

If you consider time and important card it is on Russia's side.

Another card in Russia's deck is will, compared to the West/USA (whose money and armaments Ukraine cannot win without). Rightly or wrongly, they regard Ukraine as the "cradle of Russian civilization," and consider Ukraine to be territorially, culturally, religiously, and historically an integral part of Russian Civilization. Add that to what they deem the military necessity of not having enemy forces controlling an historically significant invasion route into the heart of Russia, and the lengths they will be willing to go in terms of blood, treasure, time, and escalation will far exceed the West/USA's will over the long run. For the West/USA... this is a war that we would like to win at an acceptable level of cost. For Russia, this war is existential; one they believe they have to "win" regardless of cost.

Yet another card in Russia's favor is the fact that they could escalate the war even more in terms of the numbers and kinds of military power currently being deployed, especially if they were willing to use (or even just threaten to use) their biggest card of all, which I would prefer not to mention. I seriously doubt they would resort to that option... but that doesn't mean they absolutely won't under any circumstances either.

How does that meeting go if the press aren't in the room? I have feeling alot of what was said was for the cameras. Hioe they don't repeat that mistake the next time.

dreyOO said:

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I cannot fathom why any rational American would be defending Zelensky's antics right now. Not when we have so many problems on the homefront that are priority...and we've done MORE than our fair share to dig them out of that conflict.

Then it occurred to me. Trump has come out of the gate so hard for 30 days, there's a big part of this country that just can't stand it. Oh you found $50B in waste and fraud? We don't like it b/c we can't stand Trump. Some are progs, some are CMs, and some just can't stand the man, regardless of the issue.

So Z shows up acting like an ass, and Trump/Vance put him in his place. And a big number of idiots show up on this thread like there's something to dunk on Trump with. Just pathetic.

Here's how to fix it though: flip your FB profiles to Blue/Yellow again, start writing personal checks to a GoFundMe for Z, and sign your kids up for service overseas. Since you're all so passionate about Ukraine's 'freedom'.

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Democrats aren't rational