TresPuertas said:

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I have a genuine question for Teslag and the other defenders of Zelenskyy here. (staff, this is for discussion and not an attack i swear)

what makes you guys draw the conclusion that if someone like me is against Zelenskyy and the continued funding of the Ukraine fiasco the. we are pro Russian.

I've seen it several times on here from several posters claim that "maga" is "pro Putin/Russia" but i'd like to know the reasoning behind that

---

The problem with these big forums is that there posters from every aspect of the argument spectrum and when you are conversing with one or several over the course of weeks, months, or every years, you develop an established relationship with them. However, when debating them, others then hop in the middle and either knowingly or unknowingly, aligns themselves with them in an already established conversation. And then take on their debate as their own, even though they do not have that history or context of everything that came before. You can have someone like samurai_science who regularly trolls with wishing Russia to win and call them Pro Putin and then have someone jump in "Just because I agree with a stance of theirs, does that make me Pro Putin too?!"

At least in some cases I have seen.

Didn't like the show today for two reasons. It's unpleasant to see the presidents of two countries snapping at one another in front of the cameras. #2 the Epstein docs (a promise made) that came to nothing yesterday, are completely forgotten in today's ****-show. don't know if that's by design.

That said, Trump is trying to stop a war that started under Biden's watch, in a way that is advantageous to the USA. good.

MaroonStain said:

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Old McDonald said:

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the way trump has handled ukraine so far is roosevelt urging churchill to sue hitler for peace on any terms, and demanding england's coal reserves in return. shameful.

---

How did Churchill fare at the actual stay with FDR in the White House? The one where terms were set for England to receive increased aid from US.

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leftist marxists too ignorant to know that Roosevelt forced Churchill to turn over Greenland and the Azores in exchange for 50 old WWI destroyers in 1941

some of these dummies should watch "Darkest Hour" where Churchill is pleading for planes and democrat hero Roosevelt says the British would have to drag the planes across the Canadian border with ropes

Teslag said:

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Agreed. We were able to see Trump, on camera, bend over backwards to defend Russia and in doing so justifiably piss off the president of the country they are invading. It was cordial until that moment.

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Nope. Not at all.

You obviously have never read the 400 page thread on this board entitled "tactical aspects of Ukraine War"

because everything you have stated is factually incorrect.

Firm knowledge of history is required when venturing into political discussions, particularly conflicts between nations past, present and future.

The Fall Guy said:

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Teslag said:

---

TresPuertas said:

---

I have a genuine question for Teslag and the other defenders of Zelenskyy here. (staff, this is for discussion and not an attack i swear)

what makes you guys draw the conclusion that if someone like me is against Zelenskyy and the continued funding of the Ukraine fiasco the. we are pro Russian.

I've seen it several times on here from several posters claim that "maga" is "pro Putin/Russia" but i'd like to know the reasoning behind that

---

You aren't pro Russia if you're simply against our tax dollars being sent to Ukraine.

---

My simple hatred of Russia is that I spent all of my younger years in the Cold War fearing Russia. Its very odd that some are supporting Russia here. Especially Consevatives. I get Zelensky is a grifter because I see it. I also see Trump making Russia the victim out of this conflict which is Horsecrap. Russia starred the war. Russia will never be defeated also. Thats common sense.

---

Historically Russia has been defeated many times. The Soviet Union fell apart on its own and they were a thousand times the military that current day Russia is.

Russia tried to take Ukraine and were pushed back to the edge of the country. Ukraine now controls a part of Russia. The Russian navy has been pushed out of the Black Sea by a country with no navy at all. They do not have air superiority despite having overwhelming aircraft numerical superiority, and their army are being slaughtered in meat wave attacks. They have been forced to use WWII era equipment and donkeys to deliver arms to troops. In the beginning of the war they relied on mercenary groups that eventually initiated a failed coup that their corrupt government had to put down. Russia has been forced to rely on North Korea and Iran to help with arms and soldiers. Somehow despite all this they still seem to peddle the narrative that they are winning. It's quite impressive.

this is kind of my point, I run around a lot of conservative. People, talk to them about politics all the time, read about every conservative post on the Internet, listen to every conservative show I can, and not once, not a single damn time, have I heard anybody say they are pro Putin or pro Russia. I don't even think I've seen it on here.

It's either a media talking point or a preconceived notion that all liberals have that if you're against Ukraine, you're pro Russia, which just isn't the case for any us.

This is a complex matter and within those complexities, there's room to understand that you can hate both, which I do

Yep. FDR was no hero. If his hand hadn't been forced then half the world (at least) would be speaking German and Jews would only exist in history books. But then again, most of America didn't want get involved, and a lot of Americans disagreed with providing aid of any kind.

The japs made the cardinal mistake of ****ing with our boats. You don't **** with our boats.

backintexas2013 said:

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Old McDonald said:

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the way trump has handled ukraine so far is roosevelt urging churchill to sue hitler for peace on any terms, and demanding england's coal reserves in return. shameful.

---

You have no plan other than Trump bad give Ukraine money. That's shameful

---

and trump has no plan other than give putin what he wants and hope he doesn't do it again. unamerican and cowardly.

TresPuertas said:

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The Fall Guy said:

---

Teslag said:

---

TresPuertas said:

---

I have a genuine question for Teslag and the other defenders of Zelenskyy here. (staff, this is for discussion and not an attack i swear)

what makes you guys draw the conclusion that if someone like me is against Zelenskyy and the continued funding of the Ukraine fiasco the. we are pro Russian.

I've seen it several times on here from several posters claim that "maga" is "pro Putin/Russia" but i'd like to know the reasoning behind that

---

You aren't pro Russia if you're simply against our tax dollars being sent to Ukraine.

---

My simple hatred of Russia is that I spent all of my younger years in the Cold War fearing Russia. Its very odd that some are supporting Russia here. Especially Consevatives. I get Zelensky is a grifter because I see it. I also see Trump making Russia the victim out of this conflict which is Horsecrap. Russia starred the war. Russia will never be defeated also. Thats common sense.

---

i've read every post on this thread and have not seen a single pro-russia or pro putin post from a trump supporter. if i'm wrong please let me know. that's what im trying to to get at here. what am i missing?

---

No one has to say they support Russia to know that they do. It's how sentences are written. This feels like when Trump met with KIM. All talk and nothing came out of it. If Trump believes anything KIM or Putin says it better be with a grain of salt.

Rossticus said:

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Yep. FDR was no hero. If his hand hadn't been forced then half the world (at least) would be speaking German and Jews would only exist in history books. But then again, most of America didn't want get involve and a lot of Americans disagreed with providing aid of any kind.

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Wasn't there a law(s) (Neutrality Acts) that prohibited FDR from doing more than he did until after Dec 7 when Congress declared war?

Then why are we so worried with Russia if they are so weak?


Let Ukraine keep fighting and winning, they don't need our help.

Old McDonald said:

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backintexas2013 said:

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Old McDonald said:

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the way trump has handled ukraine so far is roosevelt urging churchill to sue hitler for peace on any terms, and demanding england's coal reserves in return. shameful.

---

You have no plan other than Trump bad give Ukraine money. That's shameful

---

and trump has no plan other than give putin what he wants and hope he doesn't do it again. unamerican and cowardly.

---

Thats a false choice

Vance looks like such a pathetic little brown noser during that

TresPuertas said:

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this is kind of my point, I run around a lot of conservative. People, talk to them about politics all the time, read about every conservative post on the Internet, listen to every conservative show I can, and not once, not a single damn time, have I heard anybody say they are pro Putin or pro Russia. I don't even think I've seen it on here.

It's either a media talking point or a preconceived notion that all liberals have that if you're against Ukraine, you're pro Russia, which just isn't the case for any us.

This is a complex matter and within those complexities, there's room to understand that you can hate both, which I do

---

I'm curious. Why do you hate Ukraine. That's the part I don't get.

PA24 said:

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Then why are we so worried with Russia if they are so weak?


Let Ukraine keep fighting and winning, they don't need our help.

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Looks like thats where we are headed. I guess we will find out.

Old McDonald said:

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backintexas2013 said:

---

Old McDonald said:

---

the way trump has handled ukraine so far is roosevelt urging churchill to sue hitler for peace on any terms, and demanding england's coal reserves in return. shameful.

---

You have no plan other than Trump bad give Ukraine money. That's shameful

---

and trump has no plan other than give putin what he wants and hope he doesn't do it again. unamerican and cowardly.

---

Good grief lol

Rossticus said:

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Yep. FDR was no hero. If his hand hadn't been forced then half the world (at least) would be speaking German and Jews would only exist in history books. But then again, most of America didn't want get involved, and a lot of Americans disagreed with providing aid of any kind.

---

So what? Why should we? EMEA has been fighting since the beginning of time. We should stay out of it.

The Fall Guy said:

---

TresPuertas said:

---

The Fall Guy said:

---

Teslag said:

---

TresPuertas said:

---

I have a genuine question for Teslag and the other defenders of Zelenskyy here. (staff, this is for discussion and not an attack i swear)

what makes you guys draw the conclusion that if someone like me is against Zelenskyy and the continued funding of the Ukraine fiasco the. we are pro Russian.

I've seen it several times on here from several posters claim that "maga" is "pro Putin/Russia" but i'd like to know the reasoning behind that

---

You aren't pro Russia if you're simply against our tax dollars being sent to Ukraine.

---

My simple hatred of Russia is that I spent all of my younger years in the Cold War fearing Russia. Its very odd that some are supporting Russia here. Especially Consevatives. I get Zelensky is a grifter because I see it. I also see Trump making Russia the victim out of this conflict which is Horsecrap. Russia starred the war. Russia will never be defeated also. Thats common sense.

---

i've read every post on this thread and have not seen a single pro-russia or pro putin post from a trump supporter. if i'm wrong please let me know. that's what im trying to to get at here. what am i missing?

---

No one has to say they support Russia to know that they do. It's how sentences are written. This feels like when Trump met with KIM. All talk and nothing came out of it. If Trump believes anything KIM or Putin says it better be with a grain of salt.

---

so you're saying that it's not said but in the subtext of how it's said? an amazing talent that must be. knowing something about someone without them even being aware.

just to be clear though, I'll make it easy for you about me. no freudian analysis needed.


i think Zelenskyy is criminal assbag, and we are using him and Ukraine to launder billions of dollars of stolen money from the american taxpayer. he can rot in hell for all i care and so can every American politician who is complicit in this grift.

also.

**** RUSSIA AND **** PUTIN.

they can all meet in hell for all i care

rootube said:

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TresPuertas said:

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this is kind of my point, I run around a lot of conservative. People, talk to them about politics all the time, read about every conservative post on the Internet, listen to every conservative show I can, and not once, not a single damn time, have I heard anybody say they are pro Putin or pro Russia. I don't even think I've seen it on here.

It's either a media talking point or a preconceived notion that all liberals have that if you're against Ukraine, you're pro Russia, which just isn't the case for any us.

This is a complex matter and within those complexities, there's room to understand that you can hate both, which I do

---

I'm curious. Why do you hate Ukraine. That's the part I don't get.

---

Who here has said they hate Ukraine? I believe Zellenskyy is a con man, but I don't hate Ukraine. We don't need to send another red cent of taxpayer money over there. We have our own problems to deal with here. I believe a lot of people, Zellenskyy included, are getting rich off this conflict. I'm not ok with that.

Pacifico said:

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Rossticus said:

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Yep. FDR was no hero. If his hand hadn't been forced then half the world (at least) would be speaking German and Jews would only exist in history books. But then again, most of America didn't want get involved, and a lot of Americans disagreed with providing aid of any kind.

---

So what? Why should we? EMEA has been fighting since the beginning. We should stay out of it.

---

Did I say anything at all about Ukraine or our involvement? I was responding to a historical statement about FDR without any broader implication. Chill.

RafterAg223 said:

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Old McDonald said:

---

backintexas2013 said:

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Old McDonald said:

---

the way trump has handled ukraine so far is roosevelt urging churchill to sue hitler for peace on any terms, and demanding england's coal reserves in return. shameful.

---

You have no plan other than Trump bad give Ukraine money. That's shameful

---

and trump has no plan other than give putin what he wants and hope he doesn't do it again. unamerican and cowardly.

---

The only reason this is going on is because your walking vegetable became president.

---

we can dispense with this talking point now. considering how ardently trump and his admin have allied themselves with putin throughout this conflict, had he been president in 2022 the russian flag would be flying over kiev today.

ukraine is a corrupt hellhole and has been known as the laundromat for dirty american money for a very long time.

beyond that, a simple understanding of post world war II eastern bloc politics shows that these are all countries cut from the same piece of cloth of communism and while one may be better than the other that doesn't mean it's good. That's the thing i think a lot of people on your side don't understand:

"if one is bad then the other may be good". that's dangerously incorrect and doesn't take into consideration the complexities of politics

think of it this way, if the Chinese and Russian governments were to go to war against each other today who would you side with?

If you said, nobody, then welcome to the club.


The same applies here. these are both very corrupt, very cruel countries and i feel for the citizens on each side. that's the humanity in me and christian in me and ill never lose that.

RafterAg223 said:

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rootube said:

---

TresPuertas said:

---

this is kind of my point, I run around a lot of conservative. People, talk to them about politics all the time, read about every conservative post on the Internet, listen to every conservative show I can, and not once, not a single damn time, have I heard anybody say they are pro Putin or pro Russia. I don't even think I've seen it on here.

It's either a media talking point or a preconceived notion that all liberals have that if you're against Ukraine, you're pro Russia, which just isn't the case for any us.

This is a complex matter and within those complexities, there's room to understand that you can hate both, which I do

---

I'm curious. Why do you hate Ukraine. That's the part I don't get.

---

Who here has said they hate Ukraine? I believe Zellenskyy is a con man, but I don't hate Ukraine. We don't need to send another red cent of taxpayer money over there. We have our own problems to deal with here. I believe a lot of people, Zellenskyy included, are getting rich off this conflict. I'm not ok with that.

---

I was replying to the other poster that literally said he hates both Ukraine and Russia.

I think the US saying we don't want to pay to support Ukraine anymore is a completely legitimate argument. I don't agree but I understand. But what I'm seeing right now are people attacking Ukraine. A country that was invaded unprovoked by its far more powerful neighbor. Is Zelenskyy going around begging for aid? Of course he is. That country is literally fighting for its existence.

There is zero evidence Zelenskyy is stealing. The vast majority of our aid is direct military aide which kind of has only one purpose for Ukraine.

Old McDonald said:

---

RafterAg223 said:

---

Old McDonald said:

---

backintexas2013 said:

---

Old McDonald said:

---

the way trump has handled ukraine so far is roosevelt urging churchill to sue hitler for peace on any terms, and demanding england's coal reserves in return. shameful.

---

You have no plan other than Trump bad give Ukraine money. That's shameful

---

and trump has no plan other than give putin what he wants and hope he doesn't do it again. unamerican and cowardly.

---

The only reason this is going on is because your walking vegetable became president.

---

we can dispense with this talking point now. considering how ardently trump and his admin have allied themselves with putin throughout this conflict, had he been president in 2022 the russian flag would be flying over kiev today.

---

Russia, Russia, Russia.... that's all you guy have. You voted for a vegetable that emboldened Putin. It's not a talking point, it's a fact.

TresPuertas said:

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this is kind of my point, I run around a lot of conservative. People, talk to them about politics all the time, read about every conservative post on the Internet, listen to every conservative show I can, and not once, not a single damn time, have I heard anybody say they are pro Putin or pro Russia. I don't even think I've seen it on here.

It's either a media talking point or a preconceived notion that all liberals have that if you're against Ukraine, you're pro Russia, which just isn't the case for any us.

This is a complex matter and within those complexities, there's room to understand that you can hate both, which I do

---

Oh there has certainly been a few for sure.

But also yes, this whole thing has devolved into a massive MSM war. But it is also true that many conservatives fell into the same dystopian trap of fake news that they decried against for so long and they never once stopped to think critically or look further because it fit their worldview all of a sudden. The Right lies just as much as the Left did IMO. Ukraine being a case in point. Yes, some of the rhetoric is true, however, MUCH of it is misconstrued, misinterpreted purposely, or just straight lies. At some levels, it is climate change level of deception. I know, because I used to disprove much of it long ago on this board. Often using the very same sources someone would post to lie about Ukraine or some aspect about it. I gave up though when no one was interested in truth. Just the narrative. And since a large portion of it originates with Russia, yes evil Russia Russia Russia!, that is why it is easy for some to label the talking points as Pro Russian.

This clip was posted several times in the past by conservatives as a "warning" that I am aware of. I guess the warning need no longer apply these days though... Bitter irony to me. Russia is the undisputed master of infiltration and mass subversion and have been for generations. Oh, I guess they stopped completely though in the middle of their worst war and somehow splitting their enemy's greatest benefactor and individual contributor was pure coincidence. (Musk) Though Biden and CO did not help of course ( I have my own beef there, trust me)... But their own grift and nonsense was not entirely on Ukraine and it's fight for survival. Ukraine got screwed over by Biden 100x more than Biden screwed us.

backintexas2013 said:

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Ukraine isn't a position of strength. We don't have to have a deal. They do. They are the short stack at the table and they don't realize it.

---

Trump wants 1/2 trillion in minerals. And he didn't get it. I think that is the bottom line. Let's see how it plays out.

rootube said:

---

RafterAg223 said:

---

rootube said:

---

TresPuertas said:

---

this is kind of my point, I run around a lot of conservative. People, talk to them about politics all the time, read about every conservative post on the Internet, listen to every conservative show I can, and not once, not a single damn time, have I heard anybody say they are pro Putin or pro Russia. I don't even think I've seen it on here.

It's either a media talking point or a preconceived notion that all liberals have that if you're against Ukraine, you're pro Russia, which just isn't the case for any us.

This is a complex matter and within those complexities, there's room to understand that you can hate both, which I do

---

I'm curious. Why do you hate Ukraine. That's the part I don't get.

---

Who here has said they hate Ukraine? I believe Zellenskyy is a con man, but I don't hate Ukraine. We don't need to send another red cent of taxpayer money over there. We have our own problems to deal with here. I believe a lot of people, Zellenskyy included, are getting rich off this conflict. I'm not ok with that.

---

I was replying to the other poster that literally said he hates both Ukraine and Russia.

I think the US saying we don't want to pay to support Ukraine anymore is a completely legitimate argument. I don't agree but I understand. But what I'm seeing right now are people attacking Ukraine. A country that was invaded unprovoked by its far more powerful neighbor. Is Zelenskyy going around begging for aid? Of course he is. That country is literally fighting for its existence.

There is zero evidence Zelenskyy is stealing. The vast majority of our aid is direct military aide which kind of has only one purpose for Ukraine.

---

Putin is, and has always been, a KGB thug.
The nation of Ukraine isn't long for this world.

TresPuertas said:

---

ukraine is a corrupt hellhole and has been known as the laundromat for dirty american money for a very long time.

beyond that, a simple understanding of post world war II eastern bloc politics shows that these are all countries cut from the same piece of cloth of communism and while one may be better than the other that doesn't mean it's good. That's the thing i think a lot of people on your side don't understand:

"if one is bad then the other may be good". that's dangerously incorrect and doesn't take into consideration the complexities of politics

think of it this way, if the Chinese and Russian governments were to go to war against each other today who would you side with?

If you said, nobody, then welcome to the club.


The same applies here. these are both very corrupt, very cruel countries and i feel for the citizens on each side. that's the humanity in me and christian in me and ill never lose that.

---

I think you are the one who doesn't understand post WWII eastern block politics. Look at the prosperity of the former eastern block countries who integrated into the west and look at the eastern block countries still under the control of Russia. Ukraine threw out the puppet Russian leader and replaced him with a democratically elected president who Russian agents promptly attempted to murder by poisoning him. They are t perfect but they don't want to be Putin's meat wave army for his next conquest.

I looked it up. Here's a little example for you. Polands GDP is $820B and it's one of the fastest growing economies in Europe. Belarus has had the same Russian installed dictator for the last 30 years and has a flat GDP of $71B.