Kenneth_2003 said:

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tk for tu juan said:

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Update door plug inspections extend out to 737-900ER variants since they share the door plug design with the 737-Max 9.

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The odd thing about this is that all of the 900ER are old enough that they would have already gone through an inspection cycle that would include removing all of the interior furnishings to enable a detailed inspection of the fuselage structure.

So any issues with the fasteners should have been caught during that inspection and any defects or shortcomings (if maintenance opened or removed the door plug) would there foreaward be on the carrier and their maintenance personnel; not on Boeing.

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Makes me wonder if the problem is a bad batch of plugs due to a manufacturing error (they're made by either Spirit AeroSystems or one of their subcontractors), and/or poor installation at the factory. Bad batches do happen, I see it at my job every now and then. Thankfully for my company, its nothing more than an annoyance and not a danger to anyone.

Also, since the 737 fuselage is made by Spirit AeroSystems in Wichita, I wonder if they install the plug there, or it gets installed later at the Boeing factory. Side note, pretty need to see a train hauling a bunch of 737 fuselages across the plains.

If the design of the plug was bad from the get go, then it would have manifested on the 737-900ERs a long time ago.

Spirit installs the plug and ships the fuselage to Renton fully installed. I recall there was some scuttlebut that possibly Boeing removed or opened the plug (it'll move to 15* in the maintenance position). I think though Boeing was quick to say they did NOT open the plug as part of the finishout.

BUT if those retention bolts were missing there's no excuse for boeing to not see that those bolts missing.

hgc159 said:

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tk for tu juan said:

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Update door plug inspections extend out to 737-900ER variants since they share the door plug design with the 737-Max 9.

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That photo shows just how much goes into inspecting for this. Have to remove at least 2 rows of seats, a wall panel, and the insulation behind it. Should have been done before any of that was installed initially.

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AND the overhead bins!

Kenneth_2003 said:

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Spirit installs the plug and ships the fuselage to Renton fully installed. I recall there was some scuttlebut that possibly Boeing removed or opened the plug (it'll move to 15* in the maintenance position). I think though Boeing was quick to say they did NOT open the plug as part of the finishout.

BUT if those retention bolts were missing there's no excuse for boeing to not see that those bolts missing.

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Very true, it should have been found in Renton if the problem with with Spirit. I'm sure the fuselages are inspected upon arrival for damage, because it doe happen now and then. They've even had a few arrives with bullet holes and one had an arrow stuck in it. They'd also have to inspect to make sure it was assembled correctly for the specific customer.

Assembly people got confused and thought the plug door kit came with extra parts like an Ikea bookshelf.

Update: Paperwork showed they had to repair/replace the seal around the plug door due to a QC escapement from Spirit, Spirit workers at Boeing's plant opened the plug to do the work. Since they only opened the plug and did not fully remove it, Boeing's QC procedures didn't require a follow up QC check and subsequent paperwork to make sure the four bolts that hold it in place were there after the plug was closed.

Not real sure that guy knows what he's talking about. The plugs are regularly removed in Washington after shipping from Kansas/Spirit, for installation of the interior etc.

Why does the plug need to be removed for interior installation? If anything it seems like you'd want to leave it as is because panels are going to be placed over it inside.

I could understand if it had a much larger clearance or opening and is necessary for large parts.

I think Spirit basically delivers it 'semi' installed, and the frame/fuselage has to be 'filled' in Washington with everything else (not just seats, but all manner of interior components like lavatories etc.). The 'plugs' and doors are very commonly/almost always then removed to facilitate said installations (and ventilation etc).

That said, the lack of QC checks after finishing the plane/reinstalling all that are…worrisome. And this is at a low rate of production (around 30 a month). Boeing had wanted to hit 38 already and had a nominal goal to get back into the mid-50's in a bit, adding a second line for the (coming?) Max10 and 8200 (high density max 8) series where the 747's had been built until last year. I don't really understand the government/regulatory folks taking a stand that 'absolutely no increases/more production facilities' as it doesn't seem logical to me. If they can build a 'good/best' second line then the FAA has no business saying 'we won't let them.'

IMHO, Boeing needs to move HQ back to the PAC-NW unfortunately. They need to really change leadership (CEO, board, all of it), and drive accountability to customers/the public/owners for hitting goals not just quarterly but in terms of safety moving forward. The Jack-Welch-stonecipher-GE crew running things…just have to all go.

A case could reasonably be made that it would be a good development to spin off commercial aviation (including services, their real cash-flow cow now) entirely. At the top end of the private equity world, I am sure many are salivating thinking about it.

nortex97 said:

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I think Spirit basically delivers it 'semi' installed, and the frame/fuselage has to be 'filled' in Washington with everything else (not just seats, but all manner of interior components like lavatories etc.). The 'plugs' and doors are very commonly/almost always then removed to facilitate said installations (and ventilation etc).

That said, the lack of QC checks after finishing the plane/reinstalling all that are…worrisome. And this is at a low rate of production (around 30 a month). Boeing had wanted to hit 38 already and had a nominal goal to get back into the mid-50's in a bit, adding a second line for the (coming?) Max10 and 8200 (high density max 8) series where the 747's had been built until last year. I don't really understand the government/regulatory folks taking a stand that 'absolutely no increases/more production facilities' as it doesn't seem logical to me. If they can build a 'good/best' second line then the FAA has no business saying 'we won't let them.'

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Boeing needs to demonstrate they can get their current manufacturing lines up to snuff before venturing off to start up new ones.

Lost in all of the Boeing animus is the role of IAM751, which has been trying to destroy Boeing for over 20 years, with more than a few highly insulated disgruntled overpaid union workers close to retirement. And make no mistake, they are threatening to crush the company in September, again (they are still mad they lost their defined benefit pensions in 2014):



Boeing over-spec'd the 787 and messed up the sourcing/supply chain initially, but Charleston is actually producing high quality results, outside of the communist peoples republic of Washington, teeth gnashing aside. It is virtually impossible to think a future 737 successor will be assembled in Washington.

https://www.instagram.com/reel/C2YkzeMtlmb/?igsh=MWgzZGZnZmZ1bTB6eA==

It's safe for work, SNL skit for Air Alaska. If you've followed this thread so far, you will get a laugh!

LRHF

BREAKING:

Government investigators take 23 days to reach same conclusion as Texags posters did on p1.

Government is as useless as tits on a bull

Stat Monitor Repairman said:

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More problems.

Atlas Air 747

https://www.nbcmiami.com/news/local/mayday-video-shows-flames-coming-from-atlas-air-plane-midflight-before-landing-safely-at-mia/3210719/

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You just have to shrug at this point.

Stat Monitor Repairman said:

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BREAKING:

Government investigators take 23 days to reach same conclusion as Texags posters did on p1.

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Yeah, but the government also had to figure out how it was installed wrong, who did it, and why no one noticed.

Stat Monitor Repairman said:

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BREAKING:

Government investigators take 23 days to reach same conclusion as Texags posters did on p1.

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I can't even imagine the geniuses sent out by the government to perform the inspections. I bet it's a DEI poster.

Faustus said:

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Stat Monitor Repairman said:

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More problems.

Atlas Air 747

https://www.nbcmiami.com/news/local/mayday-video-shows-flames-coming-from-atlas-air-plane-midflight-before-landing-safely-at-mia/3210719/

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You just have to shrug at this point.

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Sounds more like a Atlas problem than Boeing. Still the best plane to fly.

I was going for the Ayn Rand quip regardless of the underlying merits.

Biggest thing I saw today was Alaskan Airlines looking for Boeing to compensate for the lost revenue.

Who was responsible for installing the plug doors?

TexasRebel said:

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Who was responsible for installing the plug doors?

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Spirit installed them, but apparently Boeing was taking them off once the fuselage was delivered to Renton to complete assembly.

So someone at Boeing screwed up, and no one bothered to inspect the plug later.

One theory is that the plug wasn't supposed to be removed, but crews working on the planes would remove it to allow for more ventilation while working inside so it is possible that this was someone breaking the rules.

Quote:

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(Bloomberg) -- Boeing Co. found more mistakes with holes drilled in the fuselage of its 737 Max jet, a setback that could further slow deliveries on a critical program already restricted by regulators over quality lapses.

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Doing stuff is hard.

That one looks to be on Spirit.

Quote:

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A picture of the plane in a factory in Renton, Washington, revealed the lack of bolts, the NTSB said.

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No bolts at all theory confirmed.

NTSB site is overloaded right now, but eventually the link in this tweet will lead to the report

NTSB issues the preliminary report for its ongoing investigation of the Jan. 5 Alaska Airlines flight 1282 door plug accident. The report is on the NTSB investigation web page: https://t.co/nK5xY7ly9D pic.twitter.com/DiBlVlHV43

— NTSB Newsroom (@NTSB_Newsroom) February 6, 2024

nortex97 said:

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Not real sure that guy knows what he's talking about. The plugs are regularly removed in Washington after shipping from Kansas/Spirit, for installation of the interior etc.

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https://www.ntsb.gov/investigations/Documents/DCA24MA063%20Preliminary%20report.pdf

Read the Section "Manufacturing Records/Human Performance", what Juan describes in that video was close to accurate. Instead of a NCR for a seal repair, it was to repair rivets near the opening. The plug was opened for the repair (not interior installation) then closed without reinstalling the four bolts that prevent vertical movement.

Stat Monitor Repairman said:

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More problems.

Atlas Air 747

https://www.nbcmiami.com/news/local/mayday-video-shows-flames-coming-from-atlas-air-plane-midflight-before-landing-safely-at-mia/3210719/

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NTSB issues the preliminary report for its ongoing investigation of the the Jan. 18 inflight engine fire on an Atlas Air B-747 following departure from Miami International Airport. Download the PDF report: https://t.co/21ss8BC8W6

— NTSB Newsroom (@NTSB_Newsroom) February 9, 2024

Looks like might have been a maintenance foul up.

The MAX strikes again

Add this to the list of shift-change related accidents:

- Chernobyl
- Piper Alpha
- Three Mile Island
- BP Texas City

Young engineers, make sure the people coming on after you know what's up.

TriAg2010 said:

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Add this to the list of shift-change related accidents:

- Chernobyl
- Piper Alpha
- Three Mile Island
- BP Texas City

Young engineers, make sure the people coming on after you know what's up.

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Until DEI and the guy leaving deserves to leave because he is white or asian and not to be listened to

In other news, United seems least likely to become America's Areoflot after completion of the great reset.

Or, perhaps more likely. We just don't know.

Probably be American though because they've already got the livery.

Boeing is going down the tubes and I love it..go woke go broke

Not too be left out of the news... NTSB determined American Airlines doesn't know how to do a brake job on a 737.

https://www.nbcdfw.com/news/local/american-airlines-flight-overrun-runway-dfw-brake-repair-ntsb/3495047/