GhostWipe15 said:

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This is exactly why I think all of this is non-sense.

My kids education came first when choosing where to live, then my wife and I found our career paths.

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Did the same... that was our choice.

The South Collin County residents are 2 to 3 exits down 190 from JP II. What a weird argument. Seems not very germaine to the point that just because our ISDs locally are good that better options for kids shouldn't be available and that this would force underperforming districts to change how they do things. And in the meantime provide more opportunities for kids throughout the state.

Well this thread lasted longer than I anticipated since I don't have an Ag Tag, so here are my final two cents....

The most basic fundamental principle as a Conservative voting American is Individual Freedom. That is, when making decisions, they are made for individual freedom over that of growing govt. Basic, one and only do not break rule other than US Constitution decisions (ie Military).

Education, not in the Constitution. Nowhere is Art1Sec8 does it say Congress has the right to pay for education so it defaults to Art1Sec10. Our state pays for education, but only if you choose their no longer relevant, enemy owned, bullshat curriculum, No God, Sport driven ISDs. That doesn't fly, especially when Texans should have the absolute BEST available to them.

These 24 fake republicans, the only 24 representatives that have been publicly approved by the TEA (not sure about the 7 that voted present) should have voted with their peers with a YES. If for any reason at all, to take back our individual freedom to educate our children as each family desires. This was a principled decision and an easy one at that.

For those of you who think it is okay for conservatives to not see eye to eye on every issue, I say you are correct. However, on this issue, it is non-negotiable. You need to figure out that individual freedom TRUMPS ALL in decision making, especially when we tack back such a huge chunk of territory that the enemy has taken from us.

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this would force underperforming districts to change how they do things.

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I'm listening.... how would they do this? Better facilities that require indebtedness that "conservatives" rail against? Better teachers when they can't even fire the poor performers? How do you see this making the **** schools better?

All parents have the same choice today. $6000 may tip some over the "I can't fund private" or "I don't have time or energy or know-how to homeschool", but $6000 probably won't change the choices parents had the day before this would change.

Tax dollars were dedicated to common societal programs in the Texas constitution. Just like your tax dollars go to water projects and road projects (not just your water and your road). We don't have a choice where all of our tax dollars go. You have a choice who you vote for, which may indirectly impact where they go.

The funding systems and state accountability measures are completely different. Competition is good. But comparing Texas "choice" to another state's choice is not apples to apples.

Completely difference funding mechanisms and levels / requirements of accountability from their states.

Look back at the exact same amendment proposed in the last legislative session. Some representatives changed their vote. Same amendment. It's dynamic based on politics. It's not those tied to TEA only.

This is a bit confusing post. Are you saying all Texas republicans agree on this issue exactly the same way? Is there a chance that those state reps were representing their constituents' views? Is there a chance they don't like this version of vouchers?

This autocratic attempt to rule by each party is worse than any one rep on either side in my opinion. The parties have both successfully attempted to usurp our individual elected officials judgment, by empowering every citizen to expect some statewide (or nationwide) version of what a "right" republican/democrat is.

I would suggest that some of those reps have large groups of constituent voices that supported them for office, got them elected, and told them they don't want this. And they bravely told people like you to shove off with your party litmus test vote while they supported the wishes of their constituents. What horror.

We are arguing over how fancy our facilities need to be and meanwhile somewhere in India (lots of places in India actually), 50 kids are crammed into an apartment learning Calculus at 13 years old. Some kids is Africa are in a class with no windows and a grass roof and learning to write in English better than a large chunk of our kids.

Meanwhile, we live in the greatest country in history, built on freedom, innovation, and capitalism and a huge chunk of our population is too scared to be weaned off the public school teat to let those same factors propel our education options forward based on those same principles.

Let go of the fear of losing the mediocre and the failing and reach for greatness.

Greener Acres said:

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This is a bit confusing post. Are you saying all Texas republicans agree on this issue exactly the same way? Is there a chance that those state reps were representing their constituents' views? Is there a chance they don't like this version of vouchers?

This autocratic attempt to rule by each party is worse than any one rep on either side in my opinion. The parties have both successfully attempted to usurp our individual elected officials judgment, by empowering every citizen to expect some statewide (or nationwide) version of what a "right" republican/democrat is.

I would suggest that some of those reps have large groups of constituent voices that supported them for office, got them elected, and told them they don't want this. And they bravely told people like you to shove off with your party litmus test vote while they supported the wishes of their constituents. What horror.

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Spot on…but be careful. Now you'll be labeled an "enemy of this nation". This place is nuts.

I'm assuming everyone is referencing the Herrero Amendment on the House Budget bill. I'd take a breath in determining the entirety of a representative's position on public education or individual freedom based on a last minute vote on a last minute amendment introduced on a HUGE mandatory budget bill.

There are other bills moving through the house and senate that directly aim at the voucher / ESA topic. Without being hung onto the tip of a budget bill.

See where the reps and senators fall on those specific bills.

aezmvp said:

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The South Collin County residents are 2 to 3 exits down 190 from JP II. What a weird argument. Seems not very germaine to the point that just because our ISDs locally are good that better options for kids shouldn't be available and that this would force underperforming districts to change how they do things. And in the meantime provide more opportunities for kids throughout the state.

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Sachse, Murphy, Wylie are nowhere close to John Paul II. I know that because I live in Lucas and drive to all 3 towns often. Underperforming districts aren't going to improve with vouchers. They are just going to get worse. The voucher money isn't enough to make a difference in most families ability to pay for good private schools. Only small, crappy ones. And students won't be better served there than in public schools. If you truly care about giving more kids a chance to attend private school, I encourage you to donate to the scholarship fund of a private school of your choice.

ETA- I looked up the cost of JP II- by the time a family pays tuition, other fees, uniforms, laptop, etc. the cost is around $25,000 per year. The voucher money will not help majority of families be able to suddenly afford to attend there. And it is one of the more affordable "average" private schools. It is the last choice Catholic high school of kids who have attended Catholic K-8 schools. Jesuit, Bishop Lynch, Cistercian, and Ursuline are the Catholic high schools that are the schools that every Catholic school kid strives to attend in the area.

Is there anybody here that is against vouchers that is also against single payer healthcare?

If so, can you explain the difference in positions to me?

oldag941 said:

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The funding systems and state accountability measures are completely different. Competition is good. But comparing Texas "choice" to another state's choice is not apples to apples.

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Our state can see what other states have done and design a system that works for our state. It is time to try school choice for the sake of parents that actually care about their childrens education but are not financially able to pull them out of the failing government school system.

So how does that work? Getting the students out of failing schools.... if we're talking inner city folks, that are renting or living in government subsidized housing, how much voucher do they get? Where do you believe they take their kids?

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Is there anybody here that is against vouchers that is also against single payer healthcare?

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Sure.... both reduce or negate local controls for additional government bureaucracy.

Parent of a special needs kid here. We also live in an area with excellent public schools.

Our son in a public school classroom made his teacher's life very difficult, was challenging for the rest of the staff, made things harder on his classmates and made him miserable.

We homeschool now and he thrives. Absolutely thrives. It's been incredible and everyone is better off for it, including his former classmates.

I see programs that give families $1,000 education vouchers and even that amount makes a big difference encouraging online learning options. There are also special autism schools and $6,000 would make it possible for many more families to attend.

I know several families homeschooling multiple kids.$18,000 to $30,000 would make it possible for many more families to adjust work schedules to homeschool.

I understand vouchers would not be a magic button and there would be a spectrum of successes and failures. But overall, I believe having a wide range of choices available to more families would do far more benefit than harm.

And I don't feel that way because I want the $6,000. I just want others to have some of the options we are blessed to have and to see the overall system grow and improve in response.

I'd be interested to know which schools are failing and whose students or children are failing. We have sliced and diced the numbers 100 waste Sunday. The students that have low performance are directly tied to economic level. Probably also hast to deal with English language learning, as well as lack of parental and home structural support. The more middle-class or affluent students are doing quite well. That is where the performance challenge really is. I would like somebody to walk the dog on how 6000 or $8000 will change that.

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Sure.... both reduce or negate local controls for additional government bureaucracy.

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Thanks.

What does each one do for individual freedom, choice, and personal responsibility?

Which local controls are you worries about eroding?

What is the split of local/state/federal government control over public education now?

MasonB said:

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Parent of a special needs kid here. We also live in an area with excellent public schools.

Our son in a public school classroom made his teacher's life very difficult, was challenging for the rest of the staff, made things harder on his classmates and made him miserable.

We homeschool now and he thrives. Absolutely thrives. It's been incredible and everyone is better off for it, including his former classmates.

I see programs that give families $1,000 education vouchers and even that amount makes a big difference encouraging online learning options. There are also special autism schools and $6,000 would make it possible for many more families to attend.

I know several families homeschooling multiple kids.$18,000 to $30,000 would make it possible for many more families to adjust work schedules to homeschool.

I understand vouchers would not be a magic button and there would be a spectrum of successes and failures. But overall, I believe having a wide range of choices available to more families would do far more benefit than harm.

And I don't feel that way because I want the $6,000. I just want others to have some of the options we are blessed to have and to see the overall system grow and improve in response.

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The issue I have is that most private schools don't accept special needs kids. Unless it is a school specifically set up for the special needs population like Shelton, Fairhill, Winston schools in Dallas area. Shelton School tuition starts at over 30k for 1st grade. By the time kids get to high school it is almost 40,000. I just don't think the proposed small dollar amount of the vouchers is significant enough for majority of families to be able to attend a specialized private school like the Shelton School.

For special needs kids, I would make an exception in my thinking if a parent wanted to homeschool them if the classroom setting wasn't working out. However, I would want state oversight over the voucher money and some sort of way to measure progress for homeschool special needs kids. There are too many scumbag parents in the world who I think would use the homeschool voucher money as a way to fund drugs, alcoholism, etc.

IndividualFreedom said:

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Well this thread lasted longer than I anticipated since I don't have an Ag Tag, so here are my final two cents....

The most basic fundamental principle as a Conservative voting American is Individual Freedom. That is, when making decisions, they are made for individual freedom over that of growing govt. Basic, one and only do not break rule other than US Constitution decisions (ie Military).

Education, not in the Constitution. Nowhere is Art1Sec8 does it say Congress has the right to pay for education so it defaults to Art1Sec10. Our state pays for education, but only if you choose their no longer relevant, enemy owned, bullshat curriculum, No God, Sport driven ISDs. That doesn't fly, especially when Texans should have the absolute BEST available to them.

These 24 fake republicans, the only 24 representatives that have been publicly approved by the TEA (not sure about the 7 that voted present) should have voted with their peers with a YES. If for any reason at all, to take back our individual freedom to educate our children as each family desires. This was a principled decision and an easy one at that.

For those of you who think it is okay for conservatives to not see eye to eye on every issue, I say you are correct. However, on this issue, it is non-negotiable. You need to figure out that individual freedom TRUMPS ALL in decision making, especially when we tack back such a huge chunk of territory that the enemy has taken from us.

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Do you favor outlawing parents from attending drag shows with their children? I'm trying to figure out when freedom is allowed and when it is not.

Old May Banker said:

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So how does that work? Getting the students out of failing schools.... if we're talking inner city folks, that are renting or living in government subsidized housing, how much voucher do they get? Where do you believe they take their kids?

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Are you saying there are no good but poor parents who want to give their children an option that allows learning in an environment conducive to learning. Why do you not want to give children, who have a desire to learn more, or their parents options.
Raise the money that follows children with a sales tax, that way illegals can help pay for the schooling of their children. Have a bigger allowance for children with a diagnosed disability to account for the increased cost associated with their disability.
The status quo is failing for too many students.

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Raise the money that follows children with a sales tax, that way illegals can help pay for the schooling of their children. Have a bigger allowance for children with a diagnosed disability to account for the increased cost associated with their disability.

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Those are entirely different than the voucher voted on.... coincidentally I'm in favor of those ideas.

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Are you saying there are no good but poor parents who want to give their children an option that allows learning in an environment conducive to learning. Why do you not want to give children, who have a desire to learn more, or their parents options.

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Nope... not saying that at all. I'm asking legitimate questions. I don't believe these vouchers accomplish anything except feel good "we have to do something" measures.
If we really want to fix education, we quit patching it with this type stuff and figure out how to burn it down and rebuild it.

My rep is in the voted against list. Its a very conservative district but I imagine there is not a big push for this as most constituents are happy with their local public schools.

Old May Banker said:

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Are you saying there are no good but poor parents who want to give their children an option that allows learning in an environment conducive to learning. Why do you not want to give children, who have a desire to learn more, or their parents options.

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Nope... not saying that at all. I'm asking legitimate questions. I don't believe these vouchers accomplish anything except feel good "we have to do something" measures.
If we really want to fix education, we quit patching it with this type stuff and figure out how to burn it down and rebuild it.

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So you are saying that people, given the choice, will not move their children from poor performing schools to schools where there is an environment conducive to learning?

One of our greatest presidents Abraham Lincoln didn't go to an organized school for more than a year and would walk for miles to borrow a book. What is needed in our schools is a good learning environment. Parents who care about their children need to have options when the school their children are zoned to are failing to provide that environment.

trailrunner said:

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My rep is in the voted against list. Its a very conservative district but I imagine there is not a big push for this as most constituents are happy with their local public schools.

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The old I got mine, the hell with everyone else.

IndividualFreedom said:

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https://www.thecentersquare.com/texas/article_705ee2da-d577-11ed-9066-5b50f0967ff3.html

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According to the recorded vote, the 24 Republicans who voted with Democrats against funding ESAs were Reps. Steve Allison, Trent Ashby, Ernest Bailes, Keith Bell, DeWayne Burns, Travis Clardy, Drew Darby, Charlie Geren, Justina Holland, Kyle Kacal, Ken King, John Kuempel, Stan Lambert, Brooks Landgraf, Andy Murr, Angelia Orr, Four Price, John Raney, Glenn Rogers, Hugh Shine, Reggie Smith, David Spiller and Gary VanDeaver.

The 10 Republicans who voted "present," were Reps. Brad Buckley, David Cook, Mano DeAyala, Frederick Frazier, Cody Harris, John Lujan, Shelby Slawson, Kronda Thimesch, and Ed Thompson.

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We have Four Price here.

I'm not sure that it would make any difference around here for the simple reason that the schools are pretty good and there are very few, if any at all, private schools.

That said, even if they wouldn't cause much impact around here, I think that in other places the impact could be enormous and should be an available option.

IndividualFreedom said:

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They could also be assuming it will negatively affect their country school funding, when in reality it won't...but they still bend the ear of their reps.

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Let's discuss this point. What are the consequences to "Rural" Texas?

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Are there any?

I don't know if there are any private schools in the counties around me.

That said, when I was a first and second grader, I attended a school not in my school district. The school district border line was about 300 feet from the house. So my parents did pay extra for me to go to school at the larger school in town instead of the one room schoolhouse about three miles from the house.

Personally, I never saw anything wrong with the one room school house. It seems to me that those who went to the first five or six grades there were ahead of their peers when they started to go to the bigger school in town.

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Parents who care about their children need to have options when the school their children are zoned to are failing to provide that environment.

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You're implying the parents have no choice in where they live? Or finding a public school with open enrollment? They have no personal responsibility? How is it possible that so many schools have invested in themselves and their students and others that have refused to do the same now need a mechanism to leave what they created?

Can the parent just pocket the $6,000 and stick their kid in front of the TV?

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So you are saying that people, given the choice, will not move their children from poor performing schools to schools where there is an environment conducive to learning?

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They could do that right now.

shiftyandquick said:

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Can the parent just pocket the $6,000 and stick their kid in front of the TV?

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You can rest assured that will happen.... plenty.

Unless of course the state creates a new bureaucracy to oversee its newest failure... how conservative of them.

shiftyandquick said:

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Can the parent just pocket the $6,000 and stick their kid in front of the TV?

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Yes, they could have.