Russia/Ukraine from Another Perspective (Relaunch Part Deux)

483,059 Views | 9115 Replies | Last: 2 hrs ago by Ag with kids
nortex97
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AG
Zelensky: Is this the end? (Unheard)

Quote:

Despite the failure of Ukraine's Nato-backed counteroffensive, which is now universally accepted, Zelenskyy continues to stick to the maximalist victory-at-all-costs narrative that Ukraine must go on fighting until it retakes every inch of lost territory, including Crimea, and that Putin should not be negotiated with. This is understandable: he has staked everything on achieving that objective anything less would probably mean the end of his political career.

But Zelenskyy's position is looking increasingly isolated. As Simon Shuster wrote in Time magazine, "Zelenskyy's associates themselves are extremely skeptical about the [current] policy", describing the president's belief in Ukraine's ultimate victory over Russia as "immovable, verging on the messianic".

In early November, none other than Ukraine's commander-in-chief, General Valery Zaluzhny, told The Economist that the war with Russia had reached a stalemate and was evolving into a long war of attrition one in which Russia has the advantage. Many took this to mean that the general believes that the time has come to negotiate a deal with Russia. This led to a public confrontation between Zaluzhny and Zelenskyy, who rebuked the general's assessment and repeated his refusal to negotiate any ceasefire deal with Moscow.


Since then, the rivalry between the two has grown into an all-out power struggle. According to the Ukrainian news site Ukrainska Pravda, Zelenskyy views Zaluzhny's popularity as a political threat and recent events have only heightened the president's fears. Indeed, the army, it reports, is divided between those who are subordinate to Zaluzhny and those who are loyal to Ground Forces Commander Oleksandr Syrskyi, an ally of Zelenskyy.

But Zaluzhny has not been alone in criticising Zelenskyy. Last week, Kyiv Mayor Vitali Klitschko publicly supported Zaluzhny's comments about the war, stating that Zelenskyy was "paying for mistakes he made". At the start of this month, a long-standing conflict between Zelenskyy and the former president Petro Poroshenko also came to the fore, when Ukrainian authorities stopped the former head of state from leaving the country for a planned meeting with Hungarian Prime Minister Viktor Orbn.

According to his critics, this is evidence of Zelenskyy's increasingly authoritarian grip on the country. "At some point, we will no longer be any different from Russia, where everything depends on the whim of one man," Klitschko told Der Spiegel. Ivanna Klympush-Tsintsadze, Poroshenko's former vice-prime minister, also spoke of "an authoritarian regression".

But Zelenskyy isn't just facing criticism over the way forward for Ukraine; some are now saying that the entire strategy was botched from the start. Oleksii Arestovych, Zelenskyy's former presidential advisor now turned critic, recently wrote that "the war could have ended with the Istanbul agreements, and a couple hundred thousand people would still be alive", referring to a round of peace talks that took place in March and early April 2022, mediated by Turkey.
Well…yeah. But the 4 buildings in Robotyn wouldn't have been 'liberated.'
PlaneCrashGuy
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AG
Regarding your last paragraph: not a single pro-war poster here will assert that what Uke has sacrificed so much to retake should be considered "noteworthy"

Knowing this, I don't see how any rational analysis could consider the pittance they took back as good value.

The losses Ukraine incurred (which are a protected state secret for some reason?) were certainly "noteworthy" but the land wasn't. Just horrible for all the Ukes that were senselessly sacrificed by their leaders who would not negotiate.
fka ftc
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Dementia Joe says we must support Ukraine all the way to full victory and then handed Zelensky $200 million of our defense funds.
nortex97
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Dementia Joe's handlers are aiming at a trillion dollar rebuild project to skim from. I'd enthusiastically support the present payment demand if we could get out from the ongoing disaster the WEF-CCP-Dems want us to continue to obligate funds to for a decade plus.

But we all know you can't negotiate/make a contract with liars/communists, anyway.
Stat Monitor Repairman
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Bankrupted the soviet union now the same tactic being used against the US.

Burning money like there ain't no tomorrow.

Waiting for this Venezuela deal to pop off and XOM has to draw on their army.

Also wouldn't be surprised to see something pop off in Serbia.

'24 gonna be real special.
fka ftc
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Probably going to angle at some of that $1 trillion when the time comes. Government contractings can be profitable and is a hedge against inflation. The more they print, the more contracts you can go after and the more money you make.

Dems have figured this out and by and large they only deliver "consulting" type services. At least I actually provide widgets.
Ag with kids
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Get Off My Lawn said:

Had we honored our agreement to not expand NATO eastward, would Putin have still invaded? Quite possibly.

Is Putin wrong for ordering an invasion of his neighbor? By most standards: clearly.

Is an unending bloody proxy war with Russia the wisest & most ethical course of action? Many of us remain unconvinced.
We had no agreement to not expand NATO eastward. That is Putin propaganda.

Even GORBACHEV has stated there was never an agreement to do that.
Ag with kids
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fka ftc said:

Ag with kids said:

nortex97 said:

GAC06 said:

Ukraine made significant gains since Russia's unprovoked invasion. Not sure what you consider "noteworthy". Russia hasn't accomplished much noteworthy progress since 2022.
The Biden proxy war in Ukraine was entirely dependent on provoking Russia to invade/attack Ukraine, with his bellicose attitude and statements in December 2021, which the sane European allies tried to dial down/back from. I'm not saying the invasion was justified, but it's inarguable that the Russians have an argument, which they have made repeatedly over time, that the actions pre-dating the invasion justified it from their perspective.

Putin said he started it because nazis were persecuting Russians in the eastern territories, too.

So, it's because NATO kept encroaching on Russia, Biden provoking Russia, and Nazis...

And not because Putin wants to take over Ukraine and make them part of Russia again...
I think its all the above including that he was enticed / provoked.
Meh...

He wasn't enticed or provoked.

He just used all of those above as EXCUSES...

Maybe Biden running his mouth made the pretense EASIER, but it was still a pretense.
PlaneCrashGuy
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AG
Do you believe Ukraine has retaken a noteworthy amount of land? How would you weigh the land against their losses? And what are you estimating their losses to be?
nortex97
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Yep.
nortex97
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Some hilarious responses to poops-his-pants here:





Umm, how about…no.

nortex97
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This redstate piece on Xiden's childish antics/semantic arguments (or just blathering statements) about Ukraine aid funding should be read in full, imho. It reminded me…of some things I have read on this thread, and the 'other' one:

Quote:

What began as a sit-down in the Oval Office ended with Joe Biden giving a presser trashing the very people he needs to try to bring on board. Namely, Republican House and Senate members who do not want to send more money overseas to Ukraine without first addressing America's historic border crisis.

Biden took the podium not to persuade but to rant, and it perfectly exposed the kindergarten level of logic he operates with.

Foreign policy decisions are not made based on what some Russian talk show says or doesn't say. That's a moronic, immature suggestion. The only reason the president is bringing that up is to make the disgusting claim that Republicans are somehow in cahoots with Vladimir Putin if they don't bow down and do exactly what Biden and Zelensky want. Foreign policy decisions should be based on the facts on the ground, not childish guilt-by-association claims.

Speaking of childish, it wouldn't be a Biden presser without his brain returning to that level of functionality multiple times. Actually, I suspect one of my young kids could read their notes better than this.


I would favor zero funding for foreign aid for any country pending this windbag resigning due to senility.

Quote:

He has his script right in front of him, and he still can't make it through. Saying Ukraine needs to fix the American immigration system? Describing Hamas as innocent? Just another day at the office for Joe Biden.

Returning to the main theme of the presser, one can support funding Ukraine, though I'm personally at the point where I want a real strategic plan before another dollar is spent, and "as long as it takes" is not a strategy. Regardless, Republicans were given Congress to offer a counter to Biden's failed policies, not rubber stamp them. Every time the president throws out a new insult, the amount required to fix the border should go up. Make him eat his words, though he probably won't even remember saying them.
More amazingly vapid/ignorant/wrong statements at the link.
P.U.T.U
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At the beginning of the war Zelensky tried to show strength and stay in country. People thought he was brave and a good leader. Now when he gets low on money he makes a tour whining about how no one cares about his country and we should put Ukraine before our own country. Kind of reminds me of the spoiled kid that when they don't get their way they start screaming in the middle of the store until their parent gives.

Crazy we have given Ukraine so much money and can't audit where the money goes. Zelensky and Ukraine already had money laundering issues before the way, now it is on steroids. And this all started during Obama's term when Biden helped kick Yanukovych out of power.
PlaneCrashGuy
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Every dollar we have spent has already been flushed. Ukraine hasn't captured anything worth a letter home with what we HAVE given them. Why would we spend more?
GAC06
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If you're going to post tweets from the maga crowd it might be wise to let them marinate a bit rather than have community notes point out the lies after you've already linked them.
LarryElder
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Can Russia just end this already wonder why they don't finish UKE off.
PlaneCrashGuy
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LarryElder said:

Can Russia just end this already wonder why they don't finish UKE off.


Ok this made me chuckle. I remember when "Russia can end this right now" was the war supporter party line.

Turns out thats might still be true, for the opposite reason they thought.
nortex97
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AG


Update: this is propaganda. Ukraine has no freedom of the press either. Or am just got his 1 billion released by eu hoping he relents on Ukraine bribes/aid block/veto.

PlaneCrashGuy
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Let them wither! Hold the line! No aid!
fka ftc
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I asked if we can get a flag for Russian propaganda. Maybe a red star or CCCP stamp. Treat it like a blue star, badge of honor.

Nortex would get Russia "Ivan of the Day" honors for his valiant effort to actually abide by the OP and present another perspective.

Appreciate ya Nortex!
PlaneCrashGuy
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I also saw 2 million Tesla's were recalled. Bad day to be a leftist.
nortex97
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Working on it. This war is just so sad.

PlaneCrashGuy
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Thats a great tweet
Ag with kids
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PlaneCrashGuy said:

Do you believe Ukraine has retaken a noteworthy amount of land? How would you weigh the land against their losses? And what are you estimating their losses to be?
Since when?

Since the first few months of the war? Sure - they've gained back a HUGE portion of the land that Russia initially took.

In the past year? Not really...some land but nothing much to speak of.

I agree with Tesla that we're at a stalemate right now.

Ag with kids
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nortex97 said:





Umm, how about…no.


Johnny Maga was full of **** in his comment.

No matter what you think of Z, he wasn't talking to or about western leaders...he was talking about Ukrainians...

But, surprise - the Trump surrogate lied about something...this is my shocked face.

He should go to work for Putin since he's good at being full of *****
nortex97
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Pretty funny:



Not so much;





Uke propaganda called out:









Somewhat funny, really.
PlaneCrashGuy
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Ag with kids said:

PlaneCrashGuy said:

Do you believe Ukraine has retaken a noteworthy amount of land? How would you weigh the land against their losses? And what are you estimating their losses to be?
Since when?

Since the first few months of the war? Sure - they've gained back a HUGE portion of the land that Russia initially took.

In the past year? Not really...some land but nothing much to speak of.

I agree with Tesla that we're at a stalemate right now.




"Huge portion"

Its always the abstract with war supporters. How much land?
fka ftc
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PlaneCrashGuy said:

Ag with kids said:

PlaneCrashGuy said:

Do you believe Ukraine has retaken a noteworthy amount of land? How would you weigh the land against their losses? And what are you estimating their losses to be?
Since when?

Since the first few months of the war? Sure - they've gained back a HUGE portion of the land that Russia initially took.

In the past year? Not really...some land but nothing much to speak of.

I agree with Tesla that we're at a stalemate right now.




"Huge portion"

Its always the abstract with war supporters. How much land?
No worries. Despite everyone calling it a stalemate for months and months, Teslag has come around to recognize it so now too can the poster above.

And that video of Zelensky meeting with the military contractors / suppliers is ****ing disgusting. Nothing but high treason in that room.
"The absence of the word accountability is not the same as wanting no accountability" -unknown

"You can never go wrong by staying silent if there is nothing apt to say" -Walter Isaacson
PlaneCrashGuy
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Its definitely on brand for war supporter party. They figure out what we've been saying for months and pretend its a new discovery.
fka ftc
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fka ftc
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Disclaimer: This is an article linked by a news source I subscribe to but links to a Putin presser. Take it as Ivan gospel or blatant propaganda, but it gives you insight into how Putin presents the war in Ukraine.

Failure to understand an enemy is usually a decent contributor to failing the objectives.

https://www.kommersant.ru/doc/6397379
nortex97
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Will take a look later, don't have an auto translater on this browser/device right now. A very humble/frank assessment by Putin:

Quote:

According to Putin, 244,000 of those in the combat zone are troops that were called up when Russia announced partial mobilization in September 2022. They were deployed in a bid to stabilize the situation, protect new territories, and conduct further offensives. At the time, Moscow mobilized 300,000 troops. However, Putin said that 41,000 had since been discharged for health reasons, or after reaching the maximum age.

Moscow has repeatedly denied it plans to announce a second wave of mobilization, with the Russian president explaining that there was no need for such a move. Instead, Russia is relying on a steady stream of volunteers willing to sign contracts with the military.

Putin noted that the authorities had signed up some 486,000 soldiers in this large-scale recruitment campaign, adding that more are ready to enlist. However, he did not say how many of them have been deployed to the front, are undergoing training, or are stationed elsewhere.

Commenting on the battlefield situation, Putin remarked that Russian troops "to say it humbly, are improving their positions" along the entire frontline. He also said that Ukraine's much-hyped counteroffensive which began in early June has been a complete failure, with no territorial gains. Russian Defense Minister Sergey Shoigu earlier this month estimated Kiev's losses at more than 125,000 troops since the start of the push.
It's interesting as well that with all the incessant 'send support for Ukraine, in any way, and the mercenaries/volunteers/idiots there' Putin would be questioned about donations for Russian troops in the SMO:

Quote:

Speaking during his Q&A session on Thursday, the Russian leader was asked to comment on complaints that military volunteers often rely on aid fundraised by their fellow citizens rather than on state support.

Putin emphasized that supplies provided by the government account for 99% of all assistance, but noted that Moscow welcomes and will in no way hinder pure-hearted efforts to provide Russian soldiers with various types of equipment and supplies.
Talk is cheap, but then again so are trade agreements with countries that produce basically only fertilizer and grain. I somehow doubt Ukraine agrees to allow their citizenry freedom of travel/exit from the country.

He's right. We're somewhere between a nuclear armed banana republic and a wannabe empire with folks like Biden, Kerry (who served in Vietnam), Nuland, Blinken etc. running the 'ship.'

Ag with kids
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PlaneCrashGuy said:

Ag with kids said:

PlaneCrashGuy said:

Do you believe Ukraine has retaken a noteworthy amount of land? How would you weigh the land against their losses? And what are you estimating their losses to be?
Since when?

Since the first few months of the war? Sure - they've gained back a HUGE portion of the land that Russia initially took.

In the past year? Not really...some land but nothing much to speak of.

I agree with Tesla that we're at a stalemate right now.




"Huge portion"

Its always the abstract with war supporters. How much land?
All of the land gains Russia had taken from several hundred miles east of Kharkiv.

It's not that hard to even go see how much they've retaken after the initial Russian push.
PlaneCrashGuy
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Ag with kids said:

PlaneCrashGuy said:

Ag with kids said:

PlaneCrashGuy said:

Do you believe Ukraine has retaken a noteworthy amount of land? How would you weigh the land against their losses? And what are you estimating their losses to be?
Since when?

Since the first few months of the war? Sure - they've gained back a HUGE portion of the land that Russia initially took.

In the past year? Not really...some land but nothing much to speak of.

I agree with Tesla that we're at a stalemate right now.




"Huge portion"

Its always the abstract with war supporters. How much land?
All of the land gains Russia had taken from several hundred miles east of Kharkiv.

It's not that hard to even go see how much they've retaken after the initial Russian push.


"All of the land"

"I never said it was noteworthy"

So which is it?
Ag with kids
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PlaneCrashGuy said:

Ag with kids said:

PlaneCrashGuy said:

Ag with kids said:

PlaneCrashGuy said:

Do you believe Ukraine has retaken a noteworthy amount of land? How would you weigh the land against their losses? And what are you estimating their losses to be?
Since when?

Since the first few months of the war? Sure - they've gained back a HUGE portion of the land that Russia initially took.

In the past year? Not really...some land but nothing much to speak of.

I agree with Tesla that we're at a stalemate right now.




"Huge portion"

Its always the abstract with war supporters. How much land?
All of the land gains Russia had taken from several hundred miles east of Kharkiv.

It's not that hard to even go see how much they've retaken after the initial Russian push.


"All of the land"

"I never said it was noteworthy"

So which is it?
YOU:

Quote:

Do you believe Ukraine has retaken a noteworthy amount of land?


Me:

Quote:

Since when?

Me Choice 1:
Since the first few months of the war? Sure - they've gained back a HUGE portion of the land that Russia initially took.

Me Choice 2:
In the past year? Not really...some land but nothing much to speak of.

YOU choose Choice 1:

Quote:

"Huge portion"

YOU needing more clarification because you're very slow:

Quote:

Its always the abstract with war supporters. How much land?

Me answering in English which I'm beginning to think is not your first language:

Quote:

All of the land gains Russia had taken from several hundred miles east of Kharkiv.

YOU:

Quote:

Choice 1
"All of the land"

Choice 2
"I never said it was noteworthy"

So which is it?

ME:

I'll go with Choice 1. Because you asked for clarification on what I wrote in Choice 1 and that's what this whole exchange has been about.

Unless somewhere in the above exchange that you never mentioned, we somehow jumped to my Choice 2 above and now you want to make some kind of "gotcha" claim.

But my comment "All of the land" was not part of my Choice 2 above, so why are you trying to make the connection...
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