mike0305 said:

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Rgd Desantis, honestly I just grabbed the first article I saw when I googled. His position is common knowledge. You seem pretty well informed so I'm surprised you haven't heard this.

My point on "Isolationist" is this recent Rep trope that we shouldn't get involved in foreign affairs. I hear this repeated ad nauseam here recently and I don't think most have a clue what it means, or just how gray that line is.

So, the Budapest memorandum. A clinton deal, but our aim was nuke non proliferation & largely bipartisan. We guaranteed security for Ukraine. I guess we shouldn't do these deals anymore, right? Who cares about nuke proliferation and upholding agreements.

And the Nordstream2 sanctions that were republican, let's not engage in such acts anymore. We don't care what happens there right? And while we're at it, let's skip attacks on Biden since we shouldn't have done it in the first place.

There was a ton of Rep involvement in Ukraine historically, including your chosen pres nominee. So let's skip all the obscure crap about biden that is unproven at best? Yea sure, it's all his fault.

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Here's the thing, DeSantis is…the governor of Florida right now, and was only a US Representative. What is your big 'gotcha' about his criticism of Obama in 2014 as far as this goes? You agreed with him then about Obama-Biden being wrong about it and he's now wrong in your eyes?

The Budapest memorandum, sure, if we want to start our historical interest in Ukraine in the early part of the Clinton administration, that sort of began the sealing of Ukraine's fate. And why, exactly did we need to commit to armed support or otherwise of Ukraine if it is ever invaded? How dumb was that? What did it accomplish then or now?

I'd ask, instead, what the wannabe American crusaders see our role in Ukraine as?

Quote:

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The Arrogance of U.S. Leaders

The latest screed complaining about U.S. reluctance to put the interests of other nations first comes from journalist Natalia Antonova, who denouncedthose who question aid to Ukraine as "supporters of foreign dictators" and who criticize Washington's prior destructive failures, such as the Iraq invasion, as promoting the narrative that "Americans should give up and let people like Russian President Vladimir Putin run the world."

Ivory tower warriors overrun Washington. Professed humanitarians in the image of Madeleine Albright, they ask why America has such a wonderful military if they can never use it. In their view, the world is a grand chess game, and U.S. personnel are pawns to be sacrificed at will. Why the populist resistance to fulfilling America's evident destiny?

These crusader wannabes are particularly dismissive about the ill consequences to others you know, foreign civilians die all the time. So why worry if U.S. military action adds to the toll?

Again, Albright famously spoke for Washington's foreign policy establishment when she explained "we think the price is worth it" in response to a query about the countless Iraqi children allegedly killed by economic sanctions. Why should a great power like America be hampered by such unimportant matters as the welfare of foreigners, even kids?

After all, Albright as close to the perfect embodiment of hubris and callousness as one could find in Washington also insisted that America stands taller and therefore sees further. Peering into the future, its leaders glimpse a new world to be created through U.S. military intervention. And she, like a deity, viewed the result as "very good."

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Ol Joe Biden was…pretty involved. For a LONG time. Again, he's met every Russian/Soviet premier since 1979. Unproven? 6 times in 8 years? Burisma, btw, was based in Cyprus, and actually run by Russian crooks/oligarchs. Biden's $$$ to Russia and Ukraine is and has been seedy at very best. And to revisit a point; American meddling under Obama-McCain-Nuland in Ukraine in the 'maiden revolution' was disgusting, active, and violative of any respect for independence.

If we hadn't signed the Budapest memorandum, and Ukraine had nukes, guess what, Russia might not have taken Crimea, or the "Donbas" more recently. Obama made it clear we weren't taking action to change that course back in 2014.

Seriously read this article, anyone who cares about the actual recent (within 10 years!) history here.

Why are you asking about sanctions on the nordstream 2 pipeline? Yes, that was right to try to push Germany from such reliance on Russian oil and gas. Sanctions won't deter an invasion but they can impact economic decisions. Biden, of course, furiously lobbied the senate to have those sanctions he removed not re-instated via legislation, supporting Putin right through December 2021.

You keep labeling my positions as 'isolationist' but these actions, and the energy stagflation of 2022 that ensued, are what led to the economic harm globally (including the US economy) which we are suffering through (including the banking disasters).

I'm not alone in just not particularly caring whether Ukraine loses a third or more of their geography to Moscow. I don't think they'll just keep right on rolling over to Warsaw, by any means. War is expensive, often mismanaged from afar, and rarely achieves a quick or lasting objective as defined by our Washington 'wannabe crusaders.' Let Europe decide how to deal with Russia in Europe, and pay the price to do so/live with their decisions.

My points are somewhat directed at you, but not all at you. I think I made it clear, but let's back up.

One can split hairs over guarantee v. assurance in the budapest memorandum, but it's clear what Ukraine was after…sovereignty and not being invaded. The US convinced them to give them to give up nukes, which is now being more and more proven to be the only way to secure one's sovereignty, since written documents are actually more akin to toilet paper. But you can say we are not legally bound to defend the and you are "right".

My point (again not only at you), is that we can say we shouldn't be involved in the region, and Europe should sort it out. But then why should we sanction NS2 in the first place? They can figure it out and we shouldn't get involved right? Clear?

I liked Desantis but am really disappointed with his recent statement. My point was that support for Ukraine in the past was bipartisan including Desantis, and now that factions in the Rep party think it's not cool anymore he flipped.

What I hear more and more out of my Republican party is that we shouldn't be involved in European affairs, or only to the extent it serves our interest, like someone handing over nukes for bull**** security guarantees in the interest of nuke NP. Then when the political winds change or someone gets invaded and starts getting genocided, say whelp it's not our business.


From the Budapest Memorandum:
[ol]

The Russian Federation, the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, and The United States of America reaffirm their commitment to Ukraine, in accordance with the principles of the CSCE Final Act, to respect the independence and sovereignty and the existing borders of Ukraine.

The Russian Federation, the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, and The United States of America reaffirm their obligation to refrain from the threat or use of force against the territorial integrity or political independence of Ukraine, and that none of their weapons will ever be used against Ukraine except in self-defense or otherwise in accordance with the Charter of the United Nations.

The Russian Federation, the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, and The United States of America reaffirm their commitment to Ukraine, in accordance with the Principles of the CSCE Final Act, to refrain from economic coercion designed to subordinate to their own interest the exercise by Ukraine of the rights inherent in its sovereignty and thus to secure advantages of any kind.

The Russian Federation, the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, and The United States of America reaffirm their commitment to seek immediate United Nations Security Council action to provide assistance to Ukraine, as a non-nuclear-weapon state party to the Treaty on the Non-Proliferation of Nuclear Weapons, if Ukraine should become a victim of an act of aggression or an object of a threat of aggression in which nuclear weapons are used.

The Russian Federation, the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, and The United States of America reaffirm, in the case of Ukraine, their commitment not to use nuclear weapons against any non-nuclear-weapon state party to the Treaty on the Non-Proliferation of Nuclear Weapons, except in the case of an attack on themselves, their territories or dependent territories, their armed forces, or their allies, by such a state in association or alliance with a nuclear weapon state.

Ukraine, The Russian Federation, the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, and The United States of America will consult in the event a situation arises which raises a question concerning these commitments.

[/ol]

Ok, some of that is fair enough.

Budapest memorandum; well, I just don't really care about it. The gov'ts of Russia, Ukraine, and other actions of all material parties have changed significantly since then. Was it a mistake? Probably. Crimean annexation happened, point of fact. There's no point in pretending it didn't, or that Obama/Nuland/Biden etc. theoretically coulda done something else. Living in an alternate legalistic universe where demanding 1993 boundaries be restored is…just that.

DeSantis: Do I wish he hadn't advocated sending weapons over? Sure. I find his statements at the time sort of bellicose/ignorant, but whatever. I find similar silliness in some of Trump's statements, many more problematic ones from folks like Haley, and…well then there is every single Democrat from Madeline Albright on down in scum and villainy. Ugh. Maybe DeSantis has just changed his opinion. I've changed mine about Iraq and Afghanistan since, and not because I want to be popular with other people. I dunno, but I hope to pick the best candidate to support and right now he appears to be it for '24.

NS2 sanctions: I don't advocate for strict never-say-anything about foreign policy/pure isolationism. Economic sanctions for bad actors, fine. Not saying we should bomb Germany for buying too much gas from Russia or too much green energy trash policies from CCP China either.

Ukraine sucks, it's corrupt, just as/partially why Biden's were so drawn to it over the past 30 years. Russia sucks. Putin is a horrible person. The Bidens have also made a huge pile of cash off Russians.

There's no empirical/philosophical/practical reason to throw the proportion of aid as has been the case over the past 14 months on an ongoing basis at some sort of stalemated meat grinder killing 100-200K per year so that Ukrainians can 'bravely' defend themselves indefinitely (this includes the Budapest Memorandum). It's a bad deal for humanity and America alike, made worse by the fact that our own leadership is so utterly corrupt/inept/dishonest.

Agree with a lot of your points. War sucks, Iraq def leaves a lasting bitterness and I'm hopeful we stay out of conflicts that involve us sending in soldiers.

You're really knowledgeable of history and seem to have a longstanding position. My issue more is with others who watch some hack talking head and starts blasting me, a conservative, as a liberal/woke/warmonger, etc for supporting ukraine bc it's what they heard last night when historically we've had bipartisan support. So some of that saltiness was maybe misdirected.

Agree we can't go back and change how we got here. Russia hasn't been open to negotiations or anything less than maximal aims. Again I don't like war, but I don't know how you wind this down otherwise. If we withdraw support, Russia keeps going, and then stops when…they've toppled ukraine?

mike0305 said:

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Agree with a lot of your points. War sucks, Iraq def leaves a lasting bitterness and I'm hopeful we stay out of conflicts that involve us sending in soldiers.

You're really knowledgeable of history and seem to have a longstanding position. My issue more is with others who watch some hack talking head and starts blasting me, a conservative, as a liberal/woke/warmonger, etc for supporting ukraine bc it's what they heard last night when historically we've had historical bipartisan support. So some of that saltiness was maybe misdirected.

Agree we can't go back and change how we got here. Russia hasn't been open to negotiations or anything less than maximal aims. Again I don't like war, but I don't know how you wind this down otherwise. If we withdraw support, Russia keeps going, and then stops when…they've toppled ukraine?

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You think they'll stop there? Why would they? The world would have shown them they can take what they want with impunity.

mike0305 said:

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Agree with a lot of your points. War sucks, Iraq def leaves a lasting bitterness and I'm hopeful we stay out of conflicts that involve us sending in soldiers.

You're really knowledgeable of history and seem to have a longstanding position. My issue more is with others who watch some hack talking head and starts blasting me, a conservative, as a liberal/woke/warmonger, etc for supporting ukraine bc it's what they heard last night when historically we've had bipartisan support. So some of that saltiness was maybe misdirected.

Agree we can't go back and change how we got here. Russia hasn't been open to negotiations or anything less than maximal aims. Again I don't like war, but I don't know how you wind this down otherwise. If we withdraw support, Russia keeps going, and then stops when…they've toppled ukraine?

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Thx, reciprocally I think the path forward must involve not just Russia/Ukraine but also the EU and Russian trade partners. To my mind, a truce (defined as a period of months/years) with trade benefits if sustained for Russian companies/oligarchs and a 'present' (or real) boundary of forces would make some sort of logical sense.

It would benefit the (global) European economy with energy stability, provide a framework for trade agreements to move forward/resume, and end the bloodshed. Ukraine would benefit by…not hemorrhaging people it cannot afford, becoming a permanent trading/security partner in the EU/Nato, and plausibly some rebuilding funds/Marshal plan type of stuff.

Frankly, outside of politicians on all sides, I don't know who loses. Allow some sort of 'refugee' program for those who are displaced (the vast majority of which have already moved toward one side/the EU). Russia and Ukraine are dying demographic peoples, no party of interest wants to economically subsidize them long term, rather the goal is to secure access to their natural resources as efficiently/peaceably as possible for as long as possible.

I want continued support to Ukraine, I was just asking the question to someone who doesn't.

We have a lever to get Ukraine to the table obviously, but so far Russia hasn't shown any interest. How do you get them to the table, China?

I don't think Russia stops or comes to the table unless the west has demonstrated they will not win and the situation in Ukraine is untenable for them. Russia views the conflict as existential. Maybe China could apply pressure, but I would be surprised if they do as they are happy with the west being distracted.

Dialogue is always good, but the sides are still far apart. Russia doesn't want to talk as they are already losing in world opinion. Ukraine & the west have zero trust in any agreement by Russia, nor should they. Also who will enforce it? If Russia gets a deal that they can agree to and breaks it (again), you going to send in Nato? Or say sorry Ukes, we tried but you lose again for the 100th time in your history?

Until then I'm in favor of keeping the weapons flowing, as I have no interest in seeing more genocide. Maybe 100k ukes have died fighting, but they have decided that's worth fighting for and better than having cities overrun, rapes and torture. As many others have pointed out, the world courts aren't going to do **** right?

There are lot's of ways to bring about a meaningful negotiation, in both private and public. Asinine off hand comments like demanding regime change in Russia sure don't help, but again reflect we've got an incompetent, arrogant and senile old man alike trying to 'run the show' from our side.

The bottom line is we're not even trying to push for/get a truce. The 'all or nothing' attitude of our/Zelensky's side and Putin's as well has to be set aside. Maybe the Chinese will succeed.

Quote:

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I liked Desantis but am really disappointed with his recent statement. My point was that support for Ukraine in the past was bipartisan including Desantis, and now that factions in the Rep party think it's not cool anymore he flipped.

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Maybe he thought for himself that unending support was not a good use of resources.

Maybe he studied past conflicts like Korea, Vietnam, and Iraq and saw what we were doing was not in our best interests.

mike0305 said:

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If we withdraw support, Russia keeps going, and then stops when…they've toppled ukraine?

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Why do you assume Russia wants to topple Ukraine?

No Russian, no strategy, no preferred outcome for Moscow includes Russia holding western Ukraine.

Western Ukraine is filled with ethnic ukranians and most of them are nationalist (and yes nazis). The war has always been about southern (EEZs) and South eastern (majority ethnic russian) Ukraine.

But the fear mongers in the media "Putin wants to capture Ukraine and all the way to the Atlantic next!" No. Nonsense.

I totally agree with you here, so much common ground. I really wish we would tone down our rhetoric, as I've heard nothing but "Kick His Ass Sea Bass!" and "OMG, Russia sucks" the entire war out of our leadership.

I also don't like all the blame of the west, us vs. them, it's NATO's fault, we're taking over there sphere of influence, etc. Complete garbage.

Instead we should change the narrative to a much more productive one (that is also more accurate). Russia could be an absolute powerhouse if they would stop with all this nonsense. NATO has no desire now or ever to fight them. They could absolutely own that region influence wise and there's nothing anyone from the west including us could do about it. They have huge amounts of resources…oil, gas, lithium, space industry, rockets. They would have to work to bring back their smart population but historically many of the greatest minds have come out of the region.

But they have to get out of this authoritarian, subjugation and puppet govt mindset where they roll in tanks and beat people into submission. No one wants to be "Russian" anymore, and they have failed to see that the world is competing economically and for talented people and less on the battlefield.

Instead we talk about regime change and not giving an inch. We have to communicate better that we are not out to destroy them, it's a really scary thought to have them be a disaster with a crapload of nukes.

One of my fav all time tv quotes is from Mad Men - "If you don't like what's being said, change the conversation."

The Debt said:

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mike0305 said:

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If we withdraw support, Russia keeps going, and then stops when…they've toppled ukraine?

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Why do you assume Russia wants to topple Ukraine?

No Russian, no strategy, no preferred outcome for Moscow includes Russia holding western Ukraine.

Western Ukraine is filled with ethnic ukranians and most of them are nationalist (and yes nazis). The war has always been about southern (EEZs) and South eastern (majority ethnic russian) Ukraine.

But the fear mongers in the media "Putin wants to capture Ukraine and all the way to the Atlantic next!" No. Nonsense.

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I guess Russia was faking it when they attempted to take Kiev, right?

The Debt said:

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mike0305 said:

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If we withdraw support, Russia keeps going, and then stops when…they've toppled ukraine?

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Why do you assume Russia wants to topple Ukraine?

No Russian, no strategy, no preferred outcome for Moscow includes Russia holding western Ukraine.

Western Ukraine is filled with ethnic ukranians and most of them are nationalist (and yes nazis). The war has always been about southern (EEZs) and South eastern (majority ethnic russian) Ukraine.

But the fear mongers in the media "Putin wants to capture Ukraine and all the way to the Atlantic next!" No. Nonsense.

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What a load of garbage. It's not fear mongering to state that Putin views Ukraine as a part of Russia and intends to establish Russian control over the entire country. The facts that you think Ukraine is full of Nazis shows how badly you have swallowed Russian propaganda.

Ag with kids said:

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The Debt said:

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mike0305 said:

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If we withdraw support, Russia keeps going, and then stops when…they've toppled ukraine?

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Why do you assume Russia wants to topple Ukraine?

No Russian, no strategy, no preferred outcome for Moscow includes Russia holding western Ukraine.

Western Ukraine is filled with ethnic ukranians and most of them are nationalist (and yes nazis). The war has always been about southern (EEZs) and South eastern (majority ethnic russian) Ukraine.

But the fear mongers in the media "Putin wants to capture Ukraine and all the way to the Atlantic next!" No. Nonsense.

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I guess Russia was faking it when they attempted to take Kiev, right?

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Yes. For the billionth time. Yes.

To capture Kiev, a modern military would have needed to bring 300,000 units to a city that size. In the initial front, they brought 100-120k total into Ukraine.

To sit here and say "those 200 paratroopers and 4 dozen armored vehicles were going to capture a city of 3mil people" is just nonsense. Russia brought too few of a force to do what you think they were aiming at, and so therefore you are left with one of two possibilities: 1) they don't know what they are doing, 2) that wasn't the aim to begin with

The objectives for Russia has always been asserting themselves in the black sea (evidence of this is capturing major port cities in the first 72 hrs, and in the first 6 hrs destroying the cemented waterpaths from the dniper that kiev used to deny Crimea potable water, an act that most of Europe recognized as a human rights violation prior to the war) and fighting for Russian majority lands (and removing the radicals from Azovstal).

twk said:

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The Debt said:

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mike0305 said:

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If we withdraw support, Russia keeps going, and then stops when…they've toppled ukraine?

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Why do you assume Russia wants to topple Ukraine?

No Russian, no strategy, no preferred outcome for Moscow includes Russia holding western Ukraine.

Western Ukraine is filled with ethnic ukranians and most of them are nationalist (and yes nazis). The war has always been about southern (EEZs) and South eastern (majority ethnic russian) Ukraine.

But the fear mongers in the media "Putin wants to capture Ukraine and all the way to the Atlantic next!" No. Nonsense.

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What a load of garbage. It's not fear mongering to state that Putin views Ukraine as a part of Russia and intends to establish Russian control over the entire country. The facts that you think Ukraine is full of Nazis shows how badly you have swallowed Russian propaganda.

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eastern and southern Ukraine is majority Russian, soo...not "Ukrainian" gasp.

Regarding the nazis, you have to lie and say that Stepan Bandera is not a national hero to Ukrainains. You have to ignore the NYTs and dozens of democrats who denounced Ukraine prior to 2022 as a state with deep favorability to nazism, you have to ignore the number of organizations and paramilitary groups that wear legit nazi symbols, like the SS, on their uniforms.

Is that the majority of ukrainians? Absolutely not. But you are lying to yourself if you are claiming Putin made it up.

Quote:

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The objectives for Russia has always been asserting themselves in the black sea (evidence of this is capturing major port cities in the first 72 hrs, and in the first 6 hrs destroying the cemented waterpaths from the dniper that kiev used to deny Crimea potable water, an act that most of Europe recognized as a human rights violation prior to the war) and fighting for Russian majority lands (and removing the radicals from Azovstal).

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They hypocrisy of your position is mind boggling.

Russia invades Crimea, in order to take it from Ukraine, and Ukraine is supposed to keep supplying the occupiers with water. If you had any sense of self awareness, you'd see how ludicrous your position is, And yes, the Russians are that stupid that they thought they could take control of Ukraine with a force far too small for the job. They believed their own propaganda and thought that Russian speakers would support their invasion.

The Debt said:

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twk said:

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The Debt said:

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mike0305 said:

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If we withdraw support, Russia keeps going, and then stops when…they've toppled ukraine?

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Why do you assume Russia wants to topple Ukraine?

No Russian, no strategy, no preferred outcome for Moscow includes Russia holding western Ukraine.

Western Ukraine is filled with ethnic ukranians and most of them are nationalist (and yes nazis). The war has always been about southern (EEZs) and South eastern (majority ethnic russian) Ukraine.

But the fear mongers in the media "Putin wants to capture Ukraine and all the way to the Atlantic next!" No. Nonsense.

---

What a load of garbage. It's not fear mongering to state that Putin views Ukraine as a part of Russia and intends to establish Russian control over the entire country. The facts that you think Ukraine is full of Nazis shows how badly you have swallowed Russian propaganda.

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eastern and southern Ukraine is majority Russian, soo...not "Ukrainian" gasp.

Regarding the nazis, you have to lie and say that Stepan Bandera is not a national hero to Ukrainains. You have to ignore the NYTs and dozens of democrats who denounced Ukraine prior to 2022 as a state with deep favorability to nazism, you have to ignore the number of organizations and paramilitary groups that wear legit nazi symbols, like the SS, on their uniforms.

Is that the majority of ukrainians? Absolutely not. But you are lying to yourself if you are claiming Putin made it up.

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There are nazis in the US, therefore the US is nazi.

That's basically your logic here...

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There are nazis in the US, therefore the US is nazi.

That's basically your logic here...

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Do these American nazis work alongside the official military and police organizations? Because in ukraine they did. The Azov Battalion works in concert with official LEOs, it has been hand-in-glove for at least the last decade where Ukraine has been in a civil war in Luhansk and Donestk.

Your false equivalency would make sense if the POTUS decided to award a nazi collaborator the "Hero of America" award back in 2010. That's pretty fkin recent to honor a nazi collaborator who wanted to eliminate ethnic poles and jews in Ukrainian lands.

We are talking the president of Ukraine posthumously awarding a fascist nazi-collaborator with the HIGHEST AWARD of the state.

You have to be willfully ignorant to believe Bandera isn't a popular figure in Modern Ukraine.

If they were so "enlightened" and rejected the racism and intolerance of Bandera, the president of Ukraine wouldn't have imagined awarding him.

Six hours now and not a single attempt by AwKids or the two cowards who starred his post to rebut the record of Ukrainian President HONORING a racist Nazi-collaborator in 2010.

Yea...

That's what I thought. Facts > MSM narratives + feelings.

Hahahhaha you can't make this shtt up.

December before the invasion Zelensky awarded the leader of the racist "Right Sector" the honor of "Hero of Ukraine" because his group "raided" a military cache of the Ukrainian government and marched down to the Russian-majority provinces 5,000 strong and contributed as paramilitary forces attacking the russian-ukrainians.

Yea...that's like the klan "raiding" fort hood and then marching to the RGV to take on the cartel. And then Biden awarding "Robert Byrd IV" the Medal of Freedom for pulling it off.

Twenty years ago we invaded Iraq. The war killed many innocent Iraqis and Americans. It destroyed the oldest Christian populations in the world. It cost over $1 trillion, and turned Iraq into a satellite of Iran. It was an unforced disaster, and I pray that we learn its lessons.

— J.D. Vance (@JDVance1) March 19, 2023

- Are you going to war?
- I'm already at war.

Briefly about the life of children near #Bakhmut near the front line...#Ukraine️ #Ukraine️war pic.twitter.com/n6W3AyWsgD

— Katya 🇺🇦 (@blue_eyedKeti) March 17, 2023

Nato struggling to work up a plan to put 300K troops around Russian borders.

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It's a challenge NATO has faced in the past, and one that experts fear could become a persistent problem for the Western alliance as Russia's war drags into a second year. While the U.S. and EU are making plans to source more weapons fast the restocking process will inevitably take time.

That could run into NATO's aspirations. Military leaders this spring will submit updated regional defense plans intended to help redefine how the alliance protects its 1 billion citizens.

The numbers will be large, with officials floating the idea of up to 300,000 NATO forces needed to help make the new model work. That means lots of coordinating and cajoling.

"I think you need forces to counter a realistic Russia," said one senior NATO military official, underscoring the need for significantly "more troops" and especially more forces at "readiness."

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Quote:

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The German military, for instance, is carrying out its assigned missions, he said, "but that is nothing compared to what we will have to contribute to NATO in the future."

And while Berlin now has a much-touted 100 billion modernization fund for upgrading Germany's military, not a single cent of the money has been spent so far, German Parliamentary Commissioner for the Armed Forces Eva Högl said earlier this week.

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The Debt said:

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Six hours now and not a single attempt by AwKids or the two cowards who starred his post to rebut the record of Ukrainian President HONORING a racist Nazi-collaborator in 2010.

Yea...

That's what I thought. Facts > MSM narratives + feelings.

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It's amazing that you think this is some kind of gotcha moment. No one cares about what a lame duck president did on his way out of office in 2010.

Your willful disregard of facts is the only thing that allows you to sustain such a constant stream of BS as you persistently defend the oppressed Russians who invaded Ukraine purely as a defensive act.

Another indicator of the unreadiness of Europe to take on Russia.



Not the bee: UK would run out of ammo in one single day of war with Russia.

Xi Jinping landed in Moscow about 3 hours ago.

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Vladimir Putin and Xi Jinping will "inevitably" discuss aspects of a peace plan proposed by China to end the conflict in Ukraine during Xi's state visit to Russia, the Kremlin has said.

The Russian leader will provide his Chinese counterpart with "exhaustive clarifications" on Moscow's perspective so that President Xi "can get a first-hand view of the current moment from the Russian side", Kremlin spokesperson Dmitry Peskov told reporters. He said:

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One way or another, the topics that figured in this plan will inevitably be touched upon during the exchange of views on Ukraine.

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Xi is due to hold one-on-one "informal" talks with Putin this afternoon, followed by dinner. Formal talks are scheduled for tomorrow.

China's 12-point paper on the "political resolution of the Ukraine crisis" calls for both sides to agree to a gradual de-escalation leading to a comprehensive ceasefire, but does not contain a roadmap for how to end the war. The plan has been largely dismissed by western leaders and received lukewarm welcomes in both Russia and Ukraine.

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twk said:

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The Debt said:

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Six hours now and not a single attempt by AwKids or the two cowards who starred his post to rebut the record of Ukrainian President HONORING a racist Nazi-collaborator in 2010.

Yea...

That's what I thought. Facts > MSM narratives + feelings.

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It's amazing that you think this is some kind of gotcha moment. No one cares about what a lame duck president did on his way out of office in 2010.

Your willful disregard of facts is the only thing that allows you to sustain such a constant stream of BS as you persistently defend the oppressed Russians who invaded Ukraine purely as a defensive act.

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The President of a country HONORS a nazi collaborator and your response is "no big deal there."

The goalposts have gone from "putin lied about Ukrainian nazis" to "ok there are nazis, but everyone's got nazis" to "it doesn't matter if the elected president of Ukraine is bestowing the nation's highest honor onto nazis."

There are potatoes that produce brighter lights than this.

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you persistently defend the oppressed Russians who invaded Ukraine purely as a defensive act

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Never once have I made that claim.

In fact, I claimed quite the opposite 1000 times. Russia is grabbing black sea O&G. That's their play. Everyone is talking about "putin wanting to take over Ukraine", nonsense. Yes Moscow wants donestk and luhansk and there are two good reasons for that 1) the access to the EEZs, 2) they are majority Russian. Putin also wants to unite ethnic Russians. How fortunate that there is gold (the black sea) at the end of the rainbow.

Never claimed the Russia proper was oppressed. But you do have to toss out a decades long civil war were Russian ukrainians have been tortured, raped, murdered by Zelensky and his predecessors. The UN recognized this and I'm sure you will say "well Russians had it coming."

The Debt said:

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[...] a decades long civil war were Russian ukrainians have been tortured, raped, murdered by Zelensky and his predecessors. The UN recognized this [...]

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Will you please provide a link to the official record?

I don't even have a clue what y'all are arguing about; what is the question, exactly (or even generally)?

nortex97 said:

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I don't even have a clue what y'all are arguing about; what is the question, exactly (or even generally)?

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Most people dont realize Ukraine has been in a civil war prior to Russia entering the lobby.

Here is a rundown of just the official pow treatment:

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The OHCHR said that both in the government-controlled and separatist-held territories "torture and ill-treatment, including conflict-related sexual violence, were used to extract confessions or information, or to otherwise force detainees to cooperate, as well as for punitive purposes, to humiliate and intimidate, and to extort money and property."

Methods of torture and ill-treatment used by both sides included beatings, dry and wet asphyxiation, electrocution, rape, forced nudity, water, food, sleep or toilet deprivation, mock executions, hooding, and threats of death or further torture or sexual violence, or harm to family members.

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https://www.pbs.org/newshour/world/u-n-documents-prisoners-torture-abuse-in-ukrainian-conflict

Ukrainian government estimated 4000 cases
Separatist estimated at 2500 cases

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The report also documents killings within the armed groups and Government forces. This includes at least 121 cases of "intentional homicide" of Ukrainian servicemen, some of whom were whistle-blowers who revealed the misconduct of Ukrainian forces in the conflict zone. Armed groups have, in some cases, resorted to execution as a punishment for crimes or disciplinary acts for misconduct in their own ranks.

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https://www.ohchr.org/en/press-releases/2016/07/un-report-2014-16-killings-ukraine-highlights-rampant-impunity

That's Ukranians killing ethnic ukranians for refusing to kill obey orders to kill Russian-ukranians. This shtt was happening in this conflict too, hell Zelensky had one of their ambassadors killed and dumped in the middle of Kiev a few months ago.


I'll find the link of the actual report. I've posted it a few times. In the report they document the torture of a dude's teenage daughter and wife. Sick stuff.

Ah, yes, I've read some of that. I've had some posts evaporate discussing/documenting how there are no 'good sides' in Ukraine:Russia, it's a battle of multiple very bad 'regimes,' and Ukraine has long been a cesspool of corruption and depravity.

We have morons in the US too of course, but a 'Neo-nazi' party is not going to be a big component of any electoral/law enforcement campaign. In Russia/Ukraine that is not something that can be taken for granted, though I don't like to post too much about it as it requires sifting through mountains of propaganda/distortions from various sides.

Folks who want to perceive/portray Zelensky et al. As some sort of "George Washington" like freedom fighters are generally just too far into the propaganda forest to find their way out.

So there are UN sitreps of 3-4 month spats that have a ton of specific information like this below. Im still searching for the summary report, finding reports entitled "NV/3/F03/Q" is a PITA.

But here's what the sitrep look like (bold will be my words):

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120. On 22 April, HRMMU submitted to the Prosecutor General of Ukraine a list of 34 detainees who were allegedly exposed to ill-treatment. Following examination of the facts, the Office reported opening criminal investigations under article 365 (excess of authority or official powers) of the Criminal Code into the use of force against four persons by SBU (secret police) and Ukrainian military, and one by members of the Right Sector (this is a nazi group, 5000 strong, Zelensky awarded leader "Hero of Ukraine" 2 months prior to Russian involvement) under article 129 (threat to kill) of the Criminal Code. HRMMU is concerned that the said cases of physical abuses against detainees are investigated under article 365 instead of article 127 (torture) of the Criminal Code90 .

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122. On 25 June, the Head of the Military Police of the Armed Forces of Ukraine reported that approximately 110 criminal proceedings had been opened into crimes committed by the battalion Aidar (another nazi group, 300-400 people, "attached" to the official 53rd Brigade, as paramilitary)in 2014-2015. These include the abduction and ill-treatment of people allegedly affiliated with the armed groups and engaged in separatism-related activities (that means ethnically-Russian Ukrainian citizens, but this is "those affiliated" meaning they went after FAMILIES). The former commander of Aidar battalion is being investigated under article 426 (inaction by military authorities) of the Criminal Code for failing to prevent crimes committed by his subordinates. According to the Office of the Prosecutor General, he is also suspected under articles 146 (illegal confinement or abduction of a person), 345 (threats or violence against a law enforcement officer) and 382 (failure to comply with a judgment) of the Criminal Code for organising the abduction of the director of the State enterprise Ukrspyrt, on 19 December 2014. On 28 June, the Prosecutor General of Ukraine informed that the pre-trial investigation into the incident was completed.

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https://www.ohchr.org/sites/default/files/Documents/Countries/UA/11thOHCHRreportUkraine.pdf

man this stuff gets wild #123 talks about another "volunteer police battalion" called Tornado. #123 talks about their kidnap, torture, and rapes. Following it down the rabbit trail...apparently they were officially "disbanded" but regularly disrupt court sessions by starting riots and entering the court to throw feces and urine at court officials. what the actual fk, mate

Fck it, Im not spending all day going through UN reports.

Just know that Ukraine was brutalizing their own citizens to a point where European powers had to negotiate a ceasefire so Kiev would stop killing its own people.

And then moments later the ceasefire was abandoned.

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I don't even have a clue what y'all are arguing about; what is the question, exactly (or even generally)?

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Most people dont realize Ukraine has been in a civil war prior to Russia entering the lobby.

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No, that's not really what happened. That "civil war" started in 2014 after Russia "annexed" eastern Ukraine and started actively and substantially backing separatists.

And if you don't want to take my word for it, this is from your own articles.

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The conflict in Ukraine's eastern industrial heartland called the Donbas erupted in April 2014 weeks after Russia's annexation of Ukraine's Crimean Peninsula that followed the ouster of the country's former Moscow-leaning president. Russia-backed separatists took control of large areas in the Donetsk and Luhansk regions, established the so-called 'people's republics' and fought the government forces attempting to reclaim control. More than 14,000 people have been killed.

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The report, which was prepared by the United Nations Human Rights Monitoring Mission in Ukraine*, states that the armed conflict in certain districts of Donetsk and Luhansk regions, "fuelled by the inflow of foreign fighters and weapons from the Russian Federation, accounts for the majority of violations of the right to life in Ukraine over the last two years,"

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TXAggie2011 said:

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I don't even have a clue what y'all are arguing about; what is the question, exactly (or even generally)?

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Most people dont realize Ukraine has been in a civil war prior to Russia entering the lobby.

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No, that's not really what happened. That "civil war" started in 2014 after Russia "annexed" eastern Ukraine and started actively and substantially backing separatists.

And if you don't want to take my word for it, this is from your own articles.

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The conflict in Ukraine's eastern industrial heartland called the Donbas erupted in April 2014 weeks after Russia's annexation of Ukraine's Crimean Peninsula that followed the ouster of the country's former Moscow-leaning president. Russia-backed separatists took control of large areas in the Donetsk and Luhansk regions, established the so-called 'people's republics' and fought the government forces attempting to reclaim control. More than 14,000 people have been killed.

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The report, which was prepared by the United Nations Human Rights Monitoring Mission in Ukraine*, states that the armed conflict in certain districts of Donetsk and Luhansk regions, "fuelled by the inflow of foreign fighters and weapons from the Russian Federation, accounts for the majority of violations of the right to life in Ukraine over the last two years,"

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Iirc the Man, the Myth, the Legend, Barack Obama said that the people of Crimea have the fundamental human right of self-determination, which is legalese for self-goverment.

You mock "separatists" while getting an education in a state, which was once a free Republic, that was founded by the exercise the same right of self-determination.

Self-awareness: 0%