twk said:

---

Western Europe was once plagued by repeated wars. That's not been the case since the end of WWII, even without any one European country dominating the others. There's no reason why wars of conquest need to be the order of the day in Eastern Europe.

The US doesn't need to police a bunch of conflicts so long as everyone just minds their own business. That's what we've seen in Western Europe, and could see in Eastern Europe. The future of Russia is an important question, but it doesn't necessarily determine all others in the region.

---

Eastern Europe will become threatened over time by the insanity happening in central/Western Europe, as has historically been the case. History didn't stop when the Berlin Wall came down.

A crowd in Sweden today subdued a 35-year-old migrant after he stabbed a 9-year-old girl and 65-year-old man while screaming "allahu Akbar". pic.twitter.com/YfKDiORxpB

— I,Hypocrite (@lporiginalg) March 3, 2023

nortex97 said:

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We should withdraw from Nato, post-haste. Europe is a mess and will be a bigger mess as it dies off and islamizes. There will be a bunch of bloody uprisings/resistance battles, but it's fait is sealed at this point.

The profiteering going on in the exploitation of hundreds of thousands of needless deaths in Ukraine is disgusting. Meanwhile, I'm waiting for the next daily aid package details, yes today. It's been almost 24 hours I believe.

---

And, there it is. 33rd Biden-US taxpayer package so far.

President Biden is announcing his 33rd security assistance package for Ukraine. The $8M or so Burisma paid his son has turned out to be the greatest political ‘investment’ in world history.
pic.twitter.com/5surGXGSjc

— @amuse (@amuse) March 3, 2023

SHOCK POLL: Gallup finds 34% of voters now want U.S. to take a limited role, if any, in solving intern'l problems --bad news for Biden & Dems who've adopted Ukraine as a client state funneling $135 bil of tax dollars. Most Repubs/Indeps rejecting globalism on record.#AmericaFirst

— Paul Sperry (@paulsperry_) March 3, 2023

And, Merrick Garland, fresh off of testimony lying to congress about targeting Catholics/conservatives politically in the DoJ, is off to Ukraine today as the latest political BS the Biden* team has sent to Kiev. I suppose they want to make sure the money laundering operation is kept as untraceable as possible.

Attorney General Merrick Garland made an unannounced trip to Ukraine on Friday, according to a Justice Department official. https://t.co/EATNdj2s1x

— Karol Cummins (@karolcummins) March 3, 2023

nortex97 said:

---

And, Merrick Garland, fresh off of testimony lying to congress about targeting Catholics/conservatives politically in the DoJ, is off to Ukraine today as the latest political BS the Biden* team has sent to Kiev. I suppose they want to make sure the money laundering operation is kept as untraceable as possible.

---

He's just checking on his retirement portfolio in person.

J. Walter Weatherman said:

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aggie93 said:

---

J. Walter Weatherman said:

---

Waffledynamics said:

---

nortex97 said:

---

Is he worse than Zelensky or Biden to you? Hell I don't pay much attention to analyst names.

---

I want to go back to this reply really quick. This is the perfect example of what happens day in and day out not just on here, but all over the place. Much of political discourse is reactionary opposition. People like what and who they like and dislike what and who they dislike. There will be no bridging of any gaps, because that's not the point.

Some of us follow this conflict carefully. You compare us to the Covid "experts", but the difference between us and them is that those people didn't like to show their work. They didn't like to actually show their reasoning. When confronted, they had little to no answers or easily disproven falsehoods. They just wanted us to all shut up and obey.

Meanwhile, there is a long-running thread and numerous resources outside of that thread to figure out more or less what's going on. There's a lot of transparent information and actual visual confirmation of what is happening. As said on previous threads, this war is basically being livestreamed on Telegram and other platforms. Do we know everything? No, but we know a lot, and we weed out untrustworthy information sources fairly well, whether they have a pro-Russia or pro-Ukraine bend. The point of the main thread is to try to understand and follow what is going on.

Meanwhile, back to the quoted reply: you don't even pay attention to the sources of information in a conflict that sees heavy disinformation and propaganda for actual military and geopolitical gains by both sides. We're not talking about the BS handwaving of calling whatever is bad for the Democrats mis/disinformation. We're talking about the real thing as the word "disinformation" was originally defined for, and you allow yourself to take in "analysis" from a convicted child predator that is an actual paid contributor to an official source of Russia's propaganda, and who has been wrong about damn near everything that he has said regarding the war.

How can anything you post be taken seriously or be given serious credibility? How is it any different from trolling?

---

Great response that will be ignored by most of the hardcore anti-Ukraine-help people on here, which will ironically enough also prove your point even further.

---

The point you guys keep missing is that most "anti-Ukraine" folks here are also "anti-Russian". Both are deeply corrupt countries that regularly engage in disinformation and will use any tactics for propaganda. Maybe you forgot about Ukraine sending missiles into Poland and then trying to blame the Russians until they got caught?

They both suck and getting into a "Well, Zelensky and his guys may be corrupt and lie constantly but Putin and HIS guys are even worse!" isn't the argument you think it is. The argument most people here have is "screw both of them, we have a lot more important things to worry about than who controls the Donbass".

---

Never said anyone was "anti-Ukraine" in that post, and that wasn't the point of his post. His point was that people are so ingrained in their own beliefs that they will use a literal paid Russian propagandist and twice convicted sex offender to make an argument just because they happen to agree with the points.

Also if "Ukrainians sending missiles into Poland and blaming Russia" is your argument as to why they are corrupt, you are aware those were defensive missiles fired at Russian attacks correct? They would have never been fired had Russia not invaded and continued to bomb civilians.

---

J. Walter Weatherman said:



Great response that will be ignored by most of the hardcore anti-Ukraine-help people on here.

Uh, ok.

Also firing the missiles by accident into Poland was not the issue. TRYING TO SAY IT WAS RUSSIA THAT DID IT was the issue. In the end these are 2 deeply corrupt governments that are trying to use or manipulate the US for different reasons. The argument you are making is that Government A sucks less than Government B. That argument has merit but my argument is screw them both.

I also couldn't care less about whomever the talking head guy is pushing propaganda and didn't watch or read that clip. I just pointed out you are missing the larger point that this isn't about Ukraine-GOOD! Russia-BAD! Or Russia-GOOD! Ukraine-BAD! It's Ukraine-BAD! Russia-BAD!

BTW, if you actually care about the people of Ukraine I think the argument is they should be looking for a peace deal because likely 100k or more are going to die in the next few months while Ukraine becomes even more of a burned out shell of a country once those 500k Russian soldiers get in gear. In the end Ukraine has very little chance of outright victory and they will end up making a deal anyway because Russia is all in on this war and NATO is trying to say they will do this but not that and they want to win but they aren't willing to actually do what it takes to take out Putin (mainly because that means WWIII).

Of course it's no coincidence you already are hearing the Biden Admin and Zelensky talking about how after the war is over Ukraine will need hundreds of billions to rebuild. Guess where they want that to come from? Oh, and I'm sure that this time there will be no corruption and all of that cash will go to help the people instead of being funneled every which way to make politicians and scumbags very rich.

Sorry bud, I've just seen this movie before.

aggie93 said:

---

J. Walter Weatherman said:

---

aggie93 said:

---

J. Walter Weatherman said:

---

Waffledynamics said:

---

nortex97 said:

---

Is he worse than Zelensky or Biden to you? Hell I don't pay much attention to analyst names.

---

I want to go back to this reply really quick. This is the perfect example of what happens day in and day out not just on here, but all over the place. Much of political discourse is reactionary opposition. People like what and who they like and dislike what and who they dislike. There will be no bridging of any gaps, because that's not the point.

Some of us follow this conflict carefully. You compare us to the Covid "experts", but the difference between us and them is that those people didn't like to show their work. They didn't like to actually show their reasoning. When confronted, they had little to no answers or easily disproven falsehoods. They just wanted us to all shut up and obey.

Meanwhile, there is a long-running thread and numerous resources outside of that thread to figure out more or less what's going on. There's a lot of transparent information and actual visual confirmation of what is happening. As said on previous threads, this war is basically being livestreamed on Telegram and other platforms. Do we know everything? No, but we know a lot, and we weed out untrustworthy information sources fairly well, whether they have a pro-Russia or pro-Ukraine bend. The point of the main thread is to try to understand and follow what is going on.

Meanwhile, back to the quoted reply: you don't even pay attention to the sources of information in a conflict that sees heavy disinformation and propaganda for actual military and geopolitical gains by both sides. We're not talking about the BS handwaving of calling whatever is bad for the Democrats mis/disinformation. We're talking about the real thing as the word "disinformation" was originally defined for, and you allow yourself to take in "analysis" from a convicted child predator that is an actual paid contributor to an official source of Russia's propaganda, and who has been wrong about damn near everything that he has said regarding the war.

How can anything you post be taken seriously or be given serious credibility? How is it any different from trolling?

---

Great response that will be ignored by most of the hardcore anti-Ukraine-help people on here, which will ironically enough also prove your point even further.

---

The point you guys keep missing is that most "anti-Ukraine" folks here are also "anti-Russian". Both are deeply corrupt countries that regularly engage in disinformation and will use any tactics for propaganda. Maybe you forgot about Ukraine sending missiles into Poland and then trying to blame the Russians until they got caught?

They both suck and getting into a "Well, Zelensky and his guys may be corrupt and lie constantly but Putin and HIS guys are even worse!" isn't the argument you think it is. The argument most people here have is "screw both of them, we have a lot more important things to worry about than who controls the Donbass".

---

Never said anyone was "anti-Ukraine" in that post, and that wasn't the point of his post. His point was that people are so ingrained in their own beliefs that they will use a literal paid Russian propagandist and twice convicted sex offender to make an argument just because they happen to agree with the points.

Also if "Ukrainians sending missiles into Poland and blaming Russia" is your argument as to why they are corrupt, you are aware those were defensive missiles fired at Russian attacks correct? They would have never been fired had Russia not invaded and continued to bomb civilians.

---

J. Walter Weatherman said:



Great response that will be ignored by most of the hardcore anti-Ukraine-help people on here.

Uh, ok.

Also firing the missiles by accident into Poland was not the issue. TRYING TO SAY IT WAS RUSSIA THAT DID IT was the issue. In the end these are 2 deeply corrupt governments that are trying to use or manipulate the US for different reasons. The argument you are making is that Government A sucks less than Government B. That argument has merit but my argument is screw them both.

I also couldn't care less about whomever the talking head guy is pushing propaganda and didn't watch or read that clip. I just pointed out you are missing the larger point that this isn't about Ukraine-GOOD! Russia-BAD! Or Russia-GOOD! Ukraine-BAD! It's Ukraine-BAD! Russia-BAD!

BTW, if you actually care about the people of Ukraine I think the argument is they should be looking for a peace deal because likely 100k or more are going to die in the next few months while Ukraine becomes even more of a burned out shell of a country once those 500k Russian soldiers get in gear. In the end Ukraine has very little chance of outright victory and they will end up making a deal anyway because Russia is all in on this war and NATO is trying to say they will do this but not that and they want to win but they aren't willing to actually do what it takes to take out Putin (mainly because that means WWIII).

Of course it's no coincidence you already are hearing the Biden Admin and Zelensky talking about how after the war is over Ukraine will need hundreds of billions to rebuild. Guess where they want that to come from? Oh, and I'm sure that this time there will be no corruption and all of that cash will go to help the people instead of being funneled every which way to make politicians and scumbags very rich.

Sorry bud, I've just seen this movie before.

---

"Anti-Ukraine-help (from the US)" does not equal "anti-Ukraine" to me. I think there are plenty of people who don't think we should be sending our resources there but don't have anything against Ukraine the country, don't think Zelenskyy is some kind of WEF puppet grifter, and understand that this entire situation is objectively 100% Russia's fault. And yes, including a Ukrainian AA missile landing in another country while it was trying to defend itself. Fog of war made the first few days confusing but that missile would have never been fired had Russia not attacked in the first place.

Then there are others who are just anti-everything Biden does no matter what, others who have bought into propaganda about Ukraine nazis/bio labs etc. and who post evidence from paid Russian propagandists.

To me there's a distinct difference in those groups. I think most of the people labeled on here as "pro-WW3 /forever war) etc would be fine with us helping them if they want it and if no American troops ever set foot on Ukrainian soil. I also think there should be some kind off-ramp in the works, but it's not our job to tell them they should give up. If they want to keep fighting and we have resources that can help give them a chance we've certainly spent a **** ton of money on worse initiatives than weakening a global rival with zero risk to American lives.

YouBet said:

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InfantryAg said:

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Ags4DaWin said:

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I am not proRussia or proPutin but how with this knowledge can you be in favor of continuously cutting checks and support continuing a war with a nuclear power when this war is being fought because 1) dirty American politicans want another ****hole to launder money through 2) we helped instigate this war 3) negotiations would end it quickly and help Ukraine citizens who want to join Russia do that. 4) knowing the events that set off this whole thing were directly orchestrated by George soros.

---

I haven't heard anyone supporting giving unlimited, unchecked money to the ukrainians.
I haven't heard anyone supporting biden escalating this by the dumbs**t way he's handling this.

This isn't an either/or choice, there are other options or combinations thereof.

I support giving very limited money. (also sending IRS agents over there to conduct audits there, instead of on Americans).

I support givng all the munitions ukrain can expend on killing russians, hopefully over the next ten years or until putin is offed or russia goes bankrupt again.

I also support biden + family being investigated and jailed.

The only good communists are dead communists. And a crippled russia allows us to concentrate on defeating (or at least countering) china.

---

Then you aren't listening because Biden and other elected representatives have said just this.

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Sorry, I should have clarified, I meant on this board I haven't heard anyone.

Beat40 said:

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I've said this from the beginning: I don't mind sending stuff to Ukraine for them to defend themselves.

However, I keep having the same thoughts about the whole "it's a bargain for us" line that gets thrown out on this board:

1) It sounds really damn good. If it sound too good…
2) It's a pretty damn sadistic thought. It's only a bargain for us because our people aren't dying. It's a line that is totally admitting being ok with Ukrainians dying for our benefit. That's really tough.

I've been consistent on this: I don't mind sending aid, but I want to know where the line is, and comments from our government that Russia will never win or our support for Ukraine will never waiver doesn't exactly tell me where that line is.

I also think it's pretty tough to trust anyone in our leadership after the whole COVID debacle and I don't think it's wrong to ask questions and continually evaluate what our country is doing.

---

I don't trust any politicians or the military or military industrial complex.

The ukrainians are gonna die regardless, and a bunch more of them without our aid.

But you can see from the link I posted, it is a bargain. I didn't add up all the spending, but this is definitely a drop in that bucket. Put the nail in the russian coffin and we could and should cut our military spending on these big ticket items, we have primarily to fight the russians.

Then we should get to devastating china by shifting all manufacturing to other countries.

InfantryAg said:

---

Beat40 said:

---

I've said this from the beginning: I don't mind sending stuff to Ukraine for them to defend themselves.

However, I keep having the same thoughts about the whole "it's a bargain for us" line that gets thrown out on this board:

1) It sounds really damn good. If it sound too good…
2) It's a pretty damn sadistic thought. It's only a bargain for us because our people aren't dying. It's a line that is totally admitting being ok with Ukrainians dying for our benefit. That's really tough.

I've been consistent on this: I don't mind sending aid, but I want to know where the line is, and comments from our government that Russia will never win or our support for Ukraine will never waiver doesn't exactly tell me where that line is.

I also think it's pretty tough to trust anyone in our leadership after the whole COVID debacle and I don't think it's wrong to ask questions and continually evaluate what our country is doing.

---

I don't trust any politicians or the military or military industrial complex.

The ukrainians are gonna die regardless, and a bunch more of them without our aid.

But you can see from the link I posted, it is a bargain. I didn't add up all the spending, but this is definitely a drop in that bucket. Put the nail in the russian coffin and we could and should cut our military spending on these big ticket items, we have primarily to fight the russians.

Then we should get to devastating china by shifting all manufacturing to other countries.

---

This...

J. Walter Weatherman said:

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aggie93 said:

---

J. Walter Weatherman said:

---

aggie93 said:

---

J. Walter Weatherman said:

---

Waffledynamics said:

---

nortex97 said:

---

Is he worse than Zelensky or Biden to you? Hell I don't pay much attention to analyst names.

---

I want to go back to this reply really quick. This is the perfect example of what happens day in and day out not just on here, but all over the place. Much of political discourse is reactionary opposition. People like what and who they like and dislike what and who they dislike. There will be no bridging of any gaps, because that's not the point.

Some of us follow this conflict carefully. You compare us to the Covid "experts", but the difference between us and them is that those people didn't like to show their work. They didn't like to actually show their reasoning. When confronted, they had little to no answers or easily disproven falsehoods. They just wanted us to all shut up and obey.

Meanwhile, there is a long-running thread and numerous resources outside of that thread to figure out more or less what's going on. There's a lot of transparent information and actual visual confirmation of what is happening. As said on previous threads, this war is basically being livestreamed on Telegram and other platforms. Do we know everything? No, but we know a lot, and we weed out untrustworthy information sources fairly well, whether they have a pro-Russia or pro-Ukraine bend. The point of the main thread is to try to understand and follow what is going on.

Meanwhile, back to the quoted reply: you don't even pay attention to the sources of information in a conflict that sees heavy disinformation and propaganda for actual military and geopolitical gains by both sides. We're not talking about the BS handwaving of calling whatever is bad for the Democrats mis/disinformation. We're talking about the real thing as the word "disinformation" was originally defined for, and you allow yourself to take in "analysis" from a convicted child predator that is an actual paid contributor to an official source of Russia's propaganda, and who has been wrong about damn near everything that he has said regarding the war.

How can anything you post be taken seriously or be given serious credibility? How is it any different from trolling?

---

Great response that will be ignored by most of the hardcore anti-Ukraine-help people on here, which will ironically enough also prove your point even further.

---

The point you guys keep missing is that most "anti-Ukraine" folks here are also "anti-Russian". Both are deeply corrupt countries that regularly engage in disinformation and will use any tactics for propaganda. Maybe you forgot about Ukraine sending missiles into Poland and then trying to blame the Russians until they got caught?

They both suck and getting into a "Well, Zelensky and his guys may be corrupt and lie constantly but Putin and HIS guys are even worse!" isn't the argument you think it is. The argument most people here have is "screw both of them, we have a lot more important things to worry about than who controls the Donbass".

---

Never said anyone was "anti-Ukraine" in that post, and that wasn't the point of his post. His point was that people are so ingrained in their own beliefs that they will use a literal paid Russian propagandist and twice convicted sex offender to make an argument just because they happen to agree with the points.

Also if "Ukrainians sending missiles into Poland and blaming Russia" is your argument as to why they are corrupt, you are aware those were defensive missiles fired at Russian attacks correct? They would have never been fired had Russia not invaded and continued to bomb civilians.

---

J. Walter Weatherman said:



Great response that will be ignored by most of the hardcore anti-Ukraine-help people on here.

Uh, ok.

Also firing the missiles by accident into Poland was not the issue. TRYING TO SAY IT WAS RUSSIA THAT DID IT was the issue. In the end these are 2 deeply corrupt governments that are trying to use or manipulate the US for different reasons. The argument you are making is that Government A sucks less than Government B. That argument has merit but my argument is screw them both.

I also couldn't care less about whomever the talking head guy is pushing propaganda and didn't watch or read that clip. I just pointed out you are missing the larger point that this isn't about Ukraine-GOOD! Russia-BAD! Or Russia-GOOD! Ukraine-BAD! It's Ukraine-BAD! Russia-BAD!

BTW, if you actually care about the people of Ukraine I think the argument is they should be looking for a peace deal because likely 100k or more are going to die in the next few months while Ukraine becomes even more of a burned out shell of a country once those 500k Russian soldiers get in gear. In the end Ukraine has very little chance of outright victory and they will end up making a deal anyway because Russia is all in on this war and NATO is trying to say they will do this but not that and they want to win but they aren't willing to actually do what it takes to take out Putin (mainly because that means WWIII).

Of course it's no coincidence you already are hearing the Biden Admin and Zelensky talking about how after the war is over Ukraine will need hundreds of billions to rebuild. Guess where they want that to come from? Oh, and I'm sure that this time there will be no corruption and all of that cash will go to help the people instead of being funneled every which way to make politicians and scumbags very rich.

Sorry bud, I've just seen this movie before.

---

"Anti-Ukraine-help (from the US)" does not equal "anti-Ukraine" to me. I think there are plenty of people who don't think we should be sending our resources there but don't have anything against Ukraine the country, don't think Zelenskyy is some kind of WEF puppet grifter, and understand that this entire situation is objectively 100% Russia's fault. And yes, including a Ukrainian AA missile landing in another country while it was trying to defend itself. Fog of war made the first few days confusing but that missile would have never been fired had Russia not attacked in the first place.

Then there are others who are just anti-everything Biden does no matter what, others who have bought into propaganda about Ukraine nazis/bio labs etc. and who post evidence from paid Russian propagandists.

To me there's a distinct difference in those groups. I think most of the people labeled on here as "pro-WW3 /forever war) etc would be fine with us helping them if they want it and if no American troops ever set foot on Ukrainian soil. I also think there should be some kind off-ramp in the works, but it's not our job to tell them they should give up. If they want to keep fighting and we have resources that can help give them a chance we've certainly spent a **** ton of money on worse initiatives than weakening a global rival with zero risk to American lives.

---

That's some pretty amazing gymnastics. You certainly seem to be criticizing anyone who opposes assistance to Ukraine as "Anti Ukraine" and I still can't see the daylight in your wording. I also certainly don't share your benefit of the doubt to the Ukrainian leadership and Zelensky. I think eh would say and do anything in order to get unlimited US assistance and I also think he is corrupt. If you buy into the "Zelensky is Churchill" nonsense you really should wake up. I mean this was that guy just a few years ago and it isn't "disinformation":



I'm sorry you think any negative story about the Ukrainian leadership is Russian disinformation and that somehow the most corrupt country on Earth suddenly became the epitome of virtue the moment Russia invaded. These are all bad people and the only argument is who is worse and honestly I don't care. Russia being worse than Ukraine is irrelevant even if that is the case. None of this is in America's interest, that's what I care about.

The Soviets invaded their neighbors repeatedly and we didn't arm/train an opposition. Afghan, Czhek, Hungary, etc. When did the rule for Russia become so different, exactly? Ukraine is a corrupt cesspool I'd rather see as Russia's problem than our dear leader's business partner.

The modern day 'red scare' in the US is just silly.

For those who perceive Russian sensitivities about the Crimea as silly/another country.

aggie93 said:

---

J. Walter Weatherman said:

---

aggie93 said:

---

J. Walter Weatherman said:

---

aggie93 said:

---

J. Walter Weatherman said:

---

Waffledynamics said:

---

nortex97 said:

---

Is he worse than Zelensky or Biden to you? Hell I don't pay much attention to analyst names.

---

I want to go back to this reply really quick. This is the perfect example of what happens day in and day out not just on here, but all over the place. Much of political discourse is reactionary opposition. People like what and who they like and dislike what and who they dislike. There will be no bridging of any gaps, because that's not the point.

Some of us follow this conflict carefully. You compare us to the Covid "experts", but the difference between us and them is that those people didn't like to show their work. They didn't like to actually show their reasoning. When confronted, they had little to no answers or easily disproven falsehoods. They just wanted us to all shut up and obey.

Meanwhile, there is a long-running thread and numerous resources outside of that thread to figure out more or less what's going on. There's a lot of transparent information and actual visual confirmation of what is happening. As said on previous threads, this war is basically being livestreamed on Telegram and other platforms. Do we know everything? No, but we know a lot, and we weed out untrustworthy information sources fairly well, whether they have a pro-Russia or pro-Ukraine bend. The point of the main thread is to try to understand and follow what is going on.

Meanwhile, back to the quoted reply: you don't even pay attention to the sources of information in a conflict that sees heavy disinformation and propaganda for actual military and geopolitical gains by both sides. We're not talking about the BS handwaving of calling whatever is bad for the Democrats mis/disinformation. We're talking about the real thing as the word "disinformation" was originally defined for, and you allow yourself to take in "analysis" from a convicted child predator that is an actual paid contributor to an official source of Russia's propaganda, and who has been wrong about damn near everything that he has said regarding the war.

How can anything you post be taken seriously or be given serious credibility? How is it any different from trolling?

---

Great response that will be ignored by most of the hardcore anti-Ukraine-help people on here, which will ironically enough also prove your point even further.

---

The point you guys keep missing is that most "anti-Ukraine" folks here are also "anti-Russian". Both are deeply corrupt countries that regularly engage in disinformation and will use any tactics for propaganda. Maybe you forgot about Ukraine sending missiles into Poland and then trying to blame the Russians until they got caught?

They both suck and getting into a "Well, Zelensky and his guys may be corrupt and lie constantly but Putin and HIS guys are even worse!" isn't the argument you think it is. The argument most people here have is "screw both of them, we have a lot more important things to worry about than who controls the Donbass".

---

Never said anyone was "anti-Ukraine" in that post, and that wasn't the point of his post. His point was that people are so ingrained in their own beliefs that they will use a literal paid Russian propagandist and twice convicted sex offender to make an argument just because they happen to agree with the points.

Also if "Ukrainians sending missiles into Poland and blaming Russia" is your argument as to why they are corrupt, you are aware those were defensive missiles fired at Russian attacks correct? They would have never been fired had Russia not invaded and continued to bomb civilians.

---

J. Walter Weatherman said:



Great response that will be ignored by most of the hardcore anti-Ukraine-help people on here.

Uh, ok.

Also firing the missiles by accident into Poland was not the issue. TRYING TO SAY IT WAS RUSSIA THAT DID IT was the issue. In the end these are 2 deeply corrupt governments that are trying to use or manipulate the US for different reasons. The argument you are making is that Government A sucks less than Government B. That argument has merit but my argument is screw them both.

I also couldn't care less about whomever the talking head guy is pushing propaganda and didn't watch or read that clip. I just pointed out you are missing the larger point that this isn't about Ukraine-GOOD! Russia-BAD! Or Russia-GOOD! Ukraine-BAD! It's Ukraine-BAD! Russia-BAD!

BTW, if you actually care about the people of Ukraine I think the argument is they should be looking for a peace deal because likely 100k or more are going to die in the next few months while Ukraine becomes even more of a burned out shell of a country once those 500k Russian soldiers get in gear. In the end Ukraine has very little chance of outright victory and they will end up making a deal anyway because Russia is all in on this war and NATO is trying to say they will do this but not that and they want to win but they aren't willing to actually do what it takes to take out Putin (mainly because that means WWIII).

Of course it's no coincidence you already are hearing the Biden Admin and Zelensky talking about how after the war is over Ukraine will need hundreds of billions to rebuild. Guess where they want that to come from? Oh, and I'm sure that this time there will be no corruption and all of that cash will go to help the people instead of being funneled every which way to make politicians and scumbags very rich.

Sorry bud, I've just seen this movie before.

---

"Anti-Ukraine-help (from the US)" does not equal "anti-Ukraine" to me. I think there are plenty of people who don't think we should be sending our resources there but don't have anything against Ukraine the country, don't think Zelenskyy is some kind of WEF puppet grifter, and understand that this entire situation is objectively 100% Russia's fault. And yes, including a Ukrainian AA missile landing in another country while it was trying to defend itself. Fog of war made the first few days confusing but that missile would have never been fired had Russia not attacked in the first place.

Then there are others who are just anti-everything Biden does no matter what, others who have bought into propaganda about Ukraine nazis/bio labs etc. and who post evidence from paid Russian propagandists.

To me there's a distinct difference in those groups. I think most of the people labeled on here as "pro-WW3 /forever war) etc would be fine with us helping them if they want it and if no American troops ever set foot on Ukrainian soil. I also think there should be some kind off-ramp in the works, but it's not our job to tell them they should give up. If they want to keep fighting and we have resources that can help give them a chance we've certainly spent a **** ton of money on worse initiatives than weakening a global rival with zero risk to American lives.

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That's some pretty amazing gymnastics. You certainly seem to be criticizing anyone who opposes assistance to Ukraine as "Anti Ukraine" and I still can't see the daylight in your wording.

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That probably says more about you than anything else. There's a big difference in "we shouldn't be using American resources in Ukraine" and the conspiracy driven "Zelenskyy is a corrupt grifter, Ukraine is just as bad as Russia, etc"

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I also certainly don't share your benefit of the doubt to the Ukrainian leadership and Zelensky. I think eh would say and do anything in order to get unlimited US assistance and I also think he is corrupt. If you buy into the "Zelensky is Churchill" nonsense you really should wake up. I mean this was that guy just a few years ago and it isn't "disinformation":

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Link to anyone here saying Zelenskyy = Churchill? If I lived in Ukraine I would expect him to do everything he could to get more support for their fight against Russia invading them. That's his job.

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I'm sorry you think any negative story about the Ukrainian leadership is Russian disinformation

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Nobody said this. But yes, Scott Ritter is 100% Russian disinformation and is paid by Russia to spread it.

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and that somehow the most corrupt country on Earth suddenly became the epitome of virtue the moment Russia invaded. These are all bad people and the only argument is who is worse and honestly I don't care.

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.
This is also your opinion and in this case it's 100% wrong. Only one of these countries invaded a neighbor unprovoked and has spent the last year murdering thousands of civilians and committing war crimes. It's like saying a slap in the face is just as bad as getting shot in the head. They aren't objectively comparable.

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Russia being worse than Ukraine is irrelevant even if that is the case. None of this is in America's interest, that's what I care about.

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This is a perfectly reasonable take that doesn't match with the rest of your posts.

**** Russia and **** Ukraine.

Waffledynamics said:

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It is in America's interest, as has been explained numerous times on this board, and nobody ****ing cares about Zelensky's past acting career.

Russia does not get to invade its neighbors. Stop gorging on Russian excuses for why they get to rape and pillage their neighbors. Ukraine is more than Zelensky, and it is more than the corruption it has had to face. This is true of any country. These people do not deserve the atrocities inflicted upon them by Putin and his regime.

Constantly trying to find reasons to irrelevantly shade Ukraine is like excusing a rapist because the woman "deserves" it. It is quite literally similar considering Russia's documented tactics of rape, torture, and murder.

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I am saying that Ukraine is a corrupt country that has always had a massive organized crime problem and has a history of corrupt leaders. It's not a place to trust with your money or to have good intentions. Is Russia worse? Yes, and Putin is one of the worst humans on Earth. They both suck and I don't trust any of them.

I think it is terrible what Russia has done in Ukraine. It's not exactly a new story. Russia did the same thing in Georgia, Chechnya, and Crimea in recent times and has historically done terrible things including to Ukraine in the past especially under Stalin. Ukraine has always been a plaything of different countries that has struggled to have any independence and always will because it is valuable land that produces lots of agriculture and now energy but it has no natural geographic protection so it is very easy to invade as it sits between multiple powers. That really sucks for them.

The point is that isn't our problem. Ukraine isn't in NATO. Our problem is protecting NATO countries should they need us. We also do virtually no trade with Ukraine. I have no problem selling Ukraine weapons. I have no problem selling Europe weapons to give to Ukraine. I have no problem using every diplomatic means we can to stop the war and pressure Russia and use sanctions against them. I have no problem sharing satellite or other information with Ukraine to assist them.

What I do have a problem with is being the biggest financial supporter of Ukraine and not by a little bit. I do have a problem with there being no defined objective as to where this is going. I do have a problem with justifications for the war that make no sense such as talking about how this is like Hitler in the 30's or that Russia is going to conventionally invade Western Europe. I do have a problem when people can't explain what the end goal they have for Russia is even if they win and how we stop it from becoming a failed state with thousands of nuclear weapons that no one controls.

We have some very real issues we need to be focused on and using our resources on. Beyond the domestic issues I would much rather be delivering on the military supplies we have sold to Taiwan for instance (they actually pays us unlike Ukraine). Taiwan is actually of very real interest to us because they are a 1st world country that has been a steady ally and a vital trading partner. We also need to get the cartel situation under control at our Southern border. We also need to retool our Navy to be more capable of patrolling the broader seas instead of a focus on having so many Super Carrier Groups that are extremely powerful but can only cover a limited distance. The world ahead is one where we need to react quickly to protect our shipping or our allies shipping if need be.

Russia is simply not a threat to us outside of their nuclear arsenal so let's not provoke that nuclear arsenal. Also if you want to play the morality game China is FAR worse than Russia, they have actual concentration camps in operation right now and play by even dirtier rules than Russia. There are lots of terrible countries run by terrible people and we can't fight them all.

J. Walter said:

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That probably says more about you than anything else. There's a big difference in "we shouldn't be using American resources in Ukraine" and the conspiracy driven "Zelenskyy is a corrupt grifter, Ukraine is just as bad as Russia, etc"

Oh, so you don't think Zelensky is corrupt and a grifter? You truly believe he is this noble hero that is honest and isn't getting his own cut of all of these billions going into his country? You think every story about him is fake news and misinformation and when he is caught lying it's the "fog of war" or "he's doing whatever he needs to do for his country". Sure thing.

I do not trust the guy at all and when I look at the leaders that are putting him on a pedestal it makes me trust him even less.



Link to anyone here saying Zelenskyy = Churchill? If I lived in Ukraine I would expect him to do everything he could to get more support for their fight against Russia invading them. That's his job.

[url=https://www.forbes.com/sites/johnbaldoni/2022/12/22/leadership-stagecraft-churchill-and-zelensky-stand-up-for-freedom/]Forbes Zelensky Churchill reference
[url=https://www.nytimes.com/2022/03/23/opinion/zelensky-churchill.html]NYT Zelensky Churchill reference
[url=https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-60667964]BBC Zelensky Churchill reference
CNN actually thinks Zelensky is MORE impressive than Churchill
[/url][/url][/url]
I could go on.



Nobody said this. But yes, Scott Ritter is 100% Russian disinformation and is paid by Russia to spread it.


You seem to think any negative story on Zelensky or Ukraine is Russian disinfo but ok.

This is also your opinion and in this case it's 100% wrong. Only one of these countries invaded a neighbor unprovoked and has spent the last year murdering thousands of civilians and committing war crimes. It's like saying a slap in the face is just as bad as getting shot in the head. They aren't objectively comparable.


My point is both of these countries are corrupt and bad and led by bad people and I want nothing to do with either of them. I do think it really sucks for the people of Ukraine but I also don't see how continuing this war for another couple of years is going to be a positive outcome for them. I do see people that will benefit from that but it isn't the average Ukrainian.


This is a perfectly reasonable take that doesn't match with the rest of your posts.


Always nice when we can agree!

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nortex97 said:

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The Soviets invaded their neighbors repeatedly and we didn't arm/train an opposition. Afghan, Czhek, Hungary, etc. When did the rule for Russia become so different, exactly? Ukraine is a corrupt cesspool I'd rather see as Russia's problem than our dear leader's business partner.

The modern day 'red scare' in the US is just silly.

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That is exactly why we had a 50 year cold war, with a multitude of billions of dollars spent on it.

The soviet union and the cold war were preventable but coming out of WWII, we were done being proactive, until it was too late.

The realistic solution is/was for a pro-Russian section of Ukraine to get sliced off. Otherwise, it's just grift for the powerful and misery/death for the common folk over there. Ukraine is not a stepping stone to the Russkies retaking more of Europe. They aren't capable and know it. They can barely manage to take a sliver of a former Soviet country with a lot of pro-Russian populace.

Perhaps, but I've yet to read an explanation lacking in cognitive dissonance as to how this time will be (a) different vs. our aid in Afghanistan, or (b) why Ukraine is strategically worth the investment we are making to generate a stalemate, let alone a plausible Russian defeat.

As partners for 'freedom,' 'human rights' or 'democracy' Zelensky et al. seem far less noble than did our previous ones in South Vietnam, Iraq, or Afghanistan. The Biden's long term corruption a la Ukraine only adds to the stench. It's disappointing more don't recognize his official role as VP there.

President Trump: "Before I even arrive at the Oval Office, I will have the disastrous war between Russia and Ukraine settled." pic.twitter.com/gUjnQ3JijG

— Trump War Room (@TrumpWarRoom) March 4, 2023

I may have to reconsider my primary vote plans.

LOL, because once zelensky knows the spigot is going to be turned off he will negotiate an end quickly, without worrying about/demanding the Donbas/Crimea, and Putin as well will again take the US seriously if Trump is the president elect.

Is that…really something I had to explain?

nortex97 said:

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President Trump: "Before I even arrive at the Oval Office, I will have the disastrous war between Russia and Ukraine settled." pic.twitter.com/gUjnQ3JijG

— Trump War Room (@TrumpWarRoom) March 4, 2023

I may have to reconsider my primary vote plans.

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And Mexico will pay for it!

aggie93 said:

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The point is that isn't our problem. Ukraine isn't in NATO. Our problem is protecting NATO countries should they need us.

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The best way for us to protect NATO is to adopt policies that .... reduce Russia's military capability, increase European defense spending, increase NATO membership, and reduce European dependence on Russian energy. If the US had not taken a hard line on Ukraine last year, most of these watershed events would not have happened. Europe would be business as usual ... vis-a-vis 2014.

The best news is this - mostly because of our role the last 12 months, Europe now seems to be tilting toward transformational policies that will uncouple us from being Europe's guarantor. Self reliance. Even Germany's Greens and Social Democrats are starting to come around. Zeitenwende.

Bratislava, Slovakia:

Several thousands took part in a March for Peace; demanding military supplies to Kiev are stopped and that peace talks between Ukraine and Russia should begin. https://t.co/nwqCaODKJQ

— Львiв Tyler (@LvivTyler) March 5, 2023

InfantryAg said:

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nortex97 said:

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The Soviets invaded their neighbors repeatedly and we didn't arm/train an opposition. Afghan, Czhek, Hungary, etc. When did the rule for Russia become so different, exactly? Ukraine is a corrupt cesspool I'd rather see as Russia's problem than our dear leader's business partner.

The modern day 'red scare' in the US is just silly.

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That is exactly why we had a 50 year cold war, with a multitude of billions of dollars spent on it.

The soviet union and the cold war were preventable but coming out of WWII, we were done being proactive, until it was too late.

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Russia isn't communist anymore. Russia of today isn't anything like it was in 1945 when FDR foolishly kept giving Stalin billions to build up his military even after they had the Nazis on the run and then gave away half the Continent at Yalta. Eastern Europe and Western Europe aren't the depleted mess they were in 1945. We also already won the Cold War.

BTW Ukraine was part of the USSR before and after WWII and we let Stalin do a lot worse to the Ukrainians during the Holodomor and we didn't give a damn. Russia has been doing terrible things to countries they occupy or are trying to occupy back to Ivan the Terrible, it's how they roll. Of course Russia has been invaded around 50 times as well because they have some of the most difficult to defend borders in the world and in about a dozen directions.

The point is Russia is terrible and will always be terrible. So long as they aren't encroaching on our direct national interests though we should stick to diplomacy and letting people that do have issues with them BUY weapons from us. Russia is a dying country and they are only a threat to us because of their nukes so let's not give them a reason to send a few our way. Or we can go full on empire and decide we are going to make the world America. Benefits to that as well but if we are going to do it let's freaking do it. Problem is most people don't have the stomach for it and a lot more think we should just give away our blood and treasure and ask for nothing in return (except for certain politicians and businesses but sure as hell not the taxpayers or the soldiers who have their ass on the line).

Personally I would like us to do a Bretton Woods Part II. Only this time if you want membership you have to play by our rules and pay us to defend you and pay well. That's basically the deal we made with Japan, South Korea, Mexico, and Canada. If you don't want to play then that's ok too but you better not screw with us. It's a fair and honest deal, just be transparent about it and do what is in the interests of the United States.

Communist, not communist, no difference they are still an adversary.

You think the cold war ended, the russians think it was just paused. I don't want to give them the opportunity to start it again. I am thinking of how things are going to be in 20 or 50 years from now and be proactive.

What does putin (and the ilk who will likely replace him if we don't undermine his cabal,) want for russia?
How long is he (they) willing to take to get there?

Again, this isn't a binary choice between escalating into WWIII or letting the Ukrainians fend for themselves. There's a lot of room in between those extremes.

Why would we sell them arms when we are getting a bargain? They could be saving us hundreds of billions a year if our politicians weren't so in bed with the military industrial complex.

They biggest problem with this whole thing is biden's ability to escalate it, when that is completely unnecessary.

nortex97 said:

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Perhaps, but I've yet to read an explanation lacking in cognitive dissonance as to how this time will be (a) different vs. our aid in Afghanistan, or (b) why Ukraine is strategically worth the investment we are making to generate a stalemate, let alone a plausible Russian defeat.

As partners for 'freedom,' 'human rights' or 'democracy' Zelensky et al. seem far less noble than did our previous ones in South Vietnam, Iraq, or Afghanistan. The Biden's long term corruption a la Ukraine only adds to the stench. It's disappointing more don't recognize his official role as VP there.

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Afghan in the 80's is what I'm thinking.

Ukraine is not the fight, weakening putin (and his allies) is the fight. A stalemate is a loss for putin.

All those partners sucked overall. There were good people amongst them, but not enough.

Yes, biden benefiting from this sucks. But he'll be gone in a couple of years (hopefully disgraced and with family in prison. I'm not holding out any hope he'll end up there).

nortex97 said:

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Bratislava, Slovakia:

Several thousands took part in a March for Peace; demanding military supplies to Kiev are stopped and that peace talks between Ukraine and Russia should begin. https://t.co/nwqCaODKJQ

— Львiв Tyler (@LvivTyler) March 5, 2023

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Peace, lol. Russia is the aggressor. They want Russian victory, not peace.

You know what you're doing.

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In his appearance before the House Armed Services Committee, Kahl said that Ukrainian officials have asked the U.S. for as many as 128 aircraft a mix of F-15s, F-16s, and F-18s.

Kahl said the U.S. Air Force estimates that Ukraine will ultimately need between 50 and 80 F-16s to replace its current air force. If the U.S. provides newly built aircraft, it will take three to six years to deliver them to Ukraine, with a slightly shorter timeline of 18 to 24 months if the U.S. sends refurbished older models F-16s.

The cost to send the F-16s would be as much as $11 billion, depending on the model and number delivered.

"That would consume a huge portion of the remaining security assistance that we have for this fiscal year," Kahl said.

On Sunday, Rep. Michael McCaul, R-Texas, said U.S. military officials told him they support providing F-16s to Ukraine.

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Proxy war.

Until it's not.