B-17 Involved in a Midair Collision at Dallas Airshow
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Last: 5 days ago by Eliminatus
Being out of position as the P-63 pilot may have been is in violation of the briefed standards. He was trying to correct for that.wbt5845 said:
But what happened to all the preflight briefings and safety protocols etc that everyone earlier on this thread insisted made the CAF totally safe?
If the P-63 did as y'all said, he either slept through those briefings and/or ignored the safety protocols in place, which is supposed to be impossible since all these pilots have 20,000 hours on the stick.
OR - maybe these older pilots (and every one of them appeared over 60) make mistakes, even though they have so many hours under their belt.
One flight as a T-38 IP, I was #4 and I was having difficulty staying in position. I was hauling the mail at around 470 knots to catch up when the formation performed a briefed maneuver. I was going too fast and was going to fly past lead even if I put the throttles in idle and extended the speedbrakes. I had no other option but to break out of the formation. I over-G'ed the jet.
I know how quickly this stuff can go out of control, especially when hauling a**.
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Let me preface this by saying this is pure speculation, but given that the P-63 was the one correcting (meaning trying to catch up with his formation), I tend to think that it is more likely he was in the wrong place. The B-17 was flying generally flying slow and level. That would seem to indicate that the B-17 was either in the right place or thought he was. The P-63 knew he wasn't where he was supposed to be and was apparently trying to correct that.
Just a tragic, tragic mistake.
Just a tragic, tragic mistake.
“Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy. It's inherent virtue is the equal sharing of miseries." - Winston Churchill
Awful.pagerman @ work said:
Let me preface this by saying this is pure speculation, but given that the P-63 was the one correcting (meaning trying to catch up with his formation), I tend to think that it is more likely he was in the wrong place. The B-17 was flying generally flying slow and level. That would seem to indicate that the B-17 was either in the right place or thought he was. The P-63 knew he wasn't where he was supposed to be and was apparently trying to correct that.
Just a tragic, tragic mistake.
Juan Browne further breaks down the ADS-B data this evening.
B17 was upgraded a year ago
https://warbirdsnews.com/warbirds-news/b-17-texas-raiders-receives-modern-avionics-upgrade.html.
https://warbirdsnews.com/warbirds-news/b-17-texas-raiders-receives-modern-avionics-upgrade.html.
They found the GPS unit today, but do not know how much data they will be able to recover from it
Just came here to post his video.
Been following his channel since his coverage of the Oroville dam failure.
He's never mentioned his own employer, but I think we all know now who he flies for.
Been following his channel since his coverage of the Oroville dam failure.
He's never mentioned his own employer, but I think we all know now who he flies for.
I've been lazy and just haven't done it yet, but I intend to subscribe, at least as the introductory level, to his Patreon. He's one of few, if not the only, youtube contributor I have found knowledgable, respectful, sincere, and humble enough to follow to a subscriber platform.Kenneth_2003 said:
Been following his channel since his coverage of the Oroville dam failure.
This one popped up in my feed this morning. This guy is saying that the air boss told the P-63 to overtake the B-17. Maybe why none of the audio is available at this time?
edit: sorry for the thumbnail. didn't realize that would be the main image
edit: sorry for the thumbnail. didn't realize that would be the main image
the red squares mean nothing in the thumbnail..if thats what you think you need to apologize for.
Looks like there were multiple mistakes made. (1) Can't fly over the spectators, so one escape route for an overshot turn is gone, (2) Planes with large speed differences at the same altitude, (3) An altitude of 500 ft prevents going under a plane you are overtaking and thereby keeping them in your sight.
And the Air Boss told the P51s ahead of the P63 to overtake the B17. That's all normal.
Watch the Juan Brown video. He has the ADS B data, flight paths, speeds.
The P63 messed up I believe.
Watch the Juan Brown video. He has the ADS B data, flight paths, speeds.
The P63 messed up I believe.
I just read that Craig Hutain, the pilot of the P63 would have been keenly aware of the spectator line because he was a spectator at the 2011 Reno races when a P-51 crashed into the crowd mere feet away from him. People he had been speaking with just beside him were gone in an instant.
The whole warbirds/bombers on parade thing was probably an accident waiting to happen but they've been doing it for what 20 years?
It sure looks like the P63 was getting wide, or turning late. If the B17 was on the spectator line then the P63 who was in a turn when they collided was on his way over the line.
It sure looks like the P63 was getting wide, or turning late. If the B17 was on the spectator line then the P63 who was in a turn when they collided was on his way over the line.
Just received an email from the Wings Over Houston Air Show with the following link regarding those who perished on Sunday.
https://commemorativeairforce.org/news/names-of-the-aircrew-from-texas-raiders-and-the-kingcobra
And if you would like to donate:
https://airshowfoundation.org/support/
https://commemorativeairforce.org/news/names-of-the-aircrew-from-texas-raiders-and-the-kingcobra
And if you would like to donate:
https://airshowfoundation.org/support/
Quote:
It is with the heaviest of hearts that we come to you today. As many already know, we lost six beloved aviators this past weekend in Dallas. We consider each of them a part of our family and are grieving with their families and friends.
Our deepest sympathies go out to their loved ones. We will never forget them or the joy and inspiration they brought to so many over the years.
Those We've Lost
Below is an official link the Commemorative Air Force headquarters issued with the names of the ones we lost.
Those we've lost and will never forget
Donate to Help the Families
Please use the link below if you or anyone you know feels compelled to donate to the families. To donate, please click the link and select "Donation in honor or memory of an individual," and type "CAF" as the "Name of Memorialized" (First name and last name).
Donate to help the families
100% of the money collected through this effort will be provided to the families as emergency funding. All received funds will be split equally amongst those families impacted.
Blue skies and tailwinds, dear friends.
- "The Office"
Your CAF Wings Over Houston Air Show Insider
RIP
https://united.texags.com/
Anyone seen the speculation that the P63 hit a drone causing a change of course into the B17?
Possible cause of the collision of the B-17G bomber and the R-63 fighter at the air show in #Dallas. Fighter apparently collided with a #drone and stalled pic.twitter.com/gAl7LfBy9V
— Arthur Morgan (@ArthurM40330824) November 25, 2022
That seems pretty weak and the "tries to re-start engine" text is ridiculous. If he'd just hit a drone the engine would not have dies in 1-second and he's trying to re-start it 1-second after that.chickencoupe16 said:
Anyone seen the speculation that the P63 hit a drone causing a change of course into the B17?Possible cause of the collision of the B-17G bomber and the R-63 fighter at the air show in #Dallas. Fighter apparently collided with a #drone and stalled pic.twitter.com/gAl7LfBy9V
— Arthur Morgan (@ArthurM40330824) November 25, 2022
Except it didn't change course or stall
I could buy it distracted him but the stall/engine bs is really stretching it, or just uninformed.
There are full clips of the 63 flying over. No audio indicating an engine stall of any sort.
It's a dumb and pointless theory.
It's a dumb and pointless theory.
Regardless of actual damage done, who is flying a drone at that altitude during an airshow in the same vicinity?
Maybe it was enough to just distract the pilot?
Maybe it was enough to just distract the pilot?
GAC06 said:
Except it didn't change course or stall
I'm going to guess the guy who posted that is claiming engine stall, not aerodynamic stall, which is confusing
I did not see any drones that day
you can see the formation in the background doing the last pass. this is 30 seconds or so before the crash
https://streamable.com/l6tz3y
you can see the formation in the background doing the last pass. this is 30 seconds or so before the crash
https://streamable.com/l6tz3y
chickencoupe16 said:
Anyone seen the speculation that the P63 hit a drone causing a change of course into the B17?Possible cause of the collision of the B-17G bomber and the R-63 fighter at the air show in #Dallas. Fighter apparently collided with a #drone and stalled pic.twitter.com/gAl7LfBy9V
— Arthur Morgan (@ArthurM40330824) November 25, 2022
First of all, this was put together by a 13 year old twitch streaming gamer, so his aviation experience is just what he saw in DCS. The reference to a "stall" and then restarting the engine is a dead giveaway that he knows nothing about the subject. Second, this looks like compression artifacts, which we all know pretty well now with the KR trial. Third, a drone isn't going to take out an Allison engine when one of the boat oars on the front of a P-63 hits it. Come on.
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Was there really a drone there? I can't tell. Also, it's a crap shoot if the pilot even saw the drone.
Agreed, no one stalls (as depicted in the video here) nose down while gaining airspeed.
Agreed, no one stalls (as depicted in the video here) nose down while gaining airspeed.
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Dan Gryder ("ProbableCause" on YouTube) has done a couple of videos about this accident now. There was no drone, no mechanical issue, no medical issue. The Air Boss deserves much of the blame here.
LGB
Yes! Gryder shhut it down. I didn't see the video where he claims the air boss is to blame. Until I hear the theory, my theory is the Aircobra was out of position and correcting back to his show line post haste instead of aborting.Aggie Jurist said:
Dan Gryder ("ProbableCause" on YouTube) has done a couple of videos about this accident now. There was no drone, no mechanical issue, no medical issue. The Air Boss deserves much of the blame here.
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NTSB issued a preliminary report today on this. Reviewed the air show traffic control recording and preflight briefing plans.
Said there was no defined altitude deconfliction plan and that the air boss told the p63 pilot to overtake the bomber formation.
Said there was no defined altitude deconfliction plan and that the air boss told the p63 pilot to overtake the bomber formation.
Seems odd that there was no altitude deconflict plan and none of the pilots pointed that out in the preflight briefings.
Sloppy first and foremost on the show organizer but also on all the pilots who, having done these so many times before, didn't speak up.
Sloppy first and foremost on the show organizer but also on all the pilots who, having done these so many times before, didn't speak up.
Which confirms what Gryder said earlier - that the P63 was told to overtake by the air boss.Quote:
Said there was no defined altitude deconfliction plan and that the air boss told the p63 pilot to overtake the bomber formation.
LGB