Well to risk the insensitive in the other direction. Considering how fulfilling these kind of things are and connections to the past for both the re-enactors and the participants, why should the overwhelming priority be put on staying alive indefinitely? We saw this during covid--- why so much absolute stress trying to make sure of tomorrow at the expense of any adventure or inspiration?91AggieLawyer said:
This is going to be unpopular, if not downright insensitive, but it isn't meant that way. I'm not a fan of airshows and I think they shouldn't exist. Ever since the one in Germany in '87 or '88 where 70 or 80 people died, I've said these things are dangerous. If they're going to exist, they need to be one plane at a time.
Yes, these accidents are rare, but they're always fatal and have the added risk of ground casualties.
B-17 Involved in a Midair Collision at Dallas Airshow
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Last: 6 days ago by Eliminatus
Why not just let adults choose their level of risk?91AggieLawyer said:
This is going to be unpopular, if not downright insensitive, but it isn't meant that way. I'm not a fan of airshows and I think they shouldn't exist. Ever since the one in Germany in '87 or '88 where 70 or 80 people died, I've said these things are dangerous. If they're going to exist, they need to be one plane at a time.
Yes, these accidents are rare, but they're always fatal and have the added risk of ground casualties.
Wait 'til you hear about F1 or MMA.
Heck, you wouldn't believe the people we allow to drive cars on public roads these days. Straight up teenagers!
I see where you're coming from but everything has risk in life. It's a big part of what makes it enjoyable and is unavoidable. Let them make their choices and keep the government out of as much as possible.
Heck, you wouldn't believe the people we allow to drive cars on public roads these days. Straight up teenagers!
I see where you're coming from but everything has risk in life. It's a big part of what makes it enjoyable and is unavoidable. Let them make their choices and keep the government out of as much as possible.
Got some friends with a hanger down there. Here's my experience:
I arrived at the hanger around 10:45 AM. Fifi was a couple hangers down while the crew was sorting out a starter issue on engine 4. I walked over and chatted with the crew for a while before walking back to the hanger then over to the runway. The show began around 11:00 with what I'm told by a nearby A&P mechanic was a reenactment of toro toro toro and with a possible reenactment of the battle of midway later in the day. I took in the morning show, the flyovers with sequenced ground explosions simulating bombing runs was great. In the background a loud noise rumbled up. Fifi engines were all running and it taxied into view. The action slowed down so I walked back to the hanger for lunch.
Around 1:00 prop noise started back up. I walked back over to the runway. The show had gotten back up to speed with several planes in the air. Similar to jet skis on a 4th of July weekend, the sound of prop planes was everywhere. At 1:20 I snapped some pictures of Fifi taxing down the runway. A few minutes later out of the corner of my eye I see a plume. I turn my head and I'm staring down the top of a B17 bomber missing its tail about 400 yards out. I don't recall hearing any noise out of the ordinary, perhaps the props and wind drowned it out. I watched in disbelief as the half bomber does what seems like a slow motion nose dive and turns into a patch of fire.
Immediately someone on a PA announces everyone to return to their hangers. Emergency and fire fighting vehicles instantly showed up at top speeds. Within minutes what seemed like every fire truck in Dallas was at RBD. I knew leaving was going to be an issue so hung out in the hanger until around 2:00 or 2:30 and went back out. Most of the fire trucks had gone, but were replaced by a fleet of all black challengers with hidden lights. Around then a car pulled up and a man walked out asking where the emergency HQ was. Not knowing for sure I pointed him in the best direction I could. He indicated he was the son in law of the pilot.
That hit pretty hard. I decided it was time to leave. Northbound Hampton road was at a standstill. It took some back road navigating to get north of loop 12 before traffic moved at a normal pace.
I arrived at the hanger around 10:45 AM. Fifi was a couple hangers down while the crew was sorting out a starter issue on engine 4. I walked over and chatted with the crew for a while before walking back to the hanger then over to the runway. The show began around 11:00 with what I'm told by a nearby A&P mechanic was a reenactment of toro toro toro and with a possible reenactment of the battle of midway later in the day. I took in the morning show, the flyovers with sequenced ground explosions simulating bombing runs was great. In the background a loud noise rumbled up. Fifi engines were all running and it taxied into view. The action slowed down so I walked back to the hanger for lunch.
Around 1:00 prop noise started back up. I walked back over to the runway. The show had gotten back up to speed with several planes in the air. Similar to jet skis on a 4th of July weekend, the sound of prop planes was everywhere. At 1:20 I snapped some pictures of Fifi taxing down the runway. A few minutes later out of the corner of my eye I see a plume. I turn my head and I'm staring down the top of a B17 bomber missing its tail about 400 yards out. I don't recall hearing any noise out of the ordinary, perhaps the props and wind drowned it out. I watched in disbelief as the half bomber does what seems like a slow motion nose dive and turns into a patch of fire.
Immediately someone on a PA announces everyone to return to their hangers. Emergency and fire fighting vehicles instantly showed up at top speeds. Within minutes what seemed like every fire truck in Dallas was at RBD. I knew leaving was going to be an issue so hung out in the hanger until around 2:00 or 2:30 and went back out. Most of the fire trucks had gone, but were replaced by a fleet of all black challengers with hidden lights. Around then a car pulled up and a man walked out asking where the emergency HQ was. Not knowing for sure I pointed him in the best direction I could. He indicated he was the son in law of the pilot.
That hit pretty hard. I decided it was time to leave. Northbound Hampton road was at a standstill. It took some back road navigating to get north of loop 12 before traffic moved at a normal pace.
Don't think anyone meant to diminish the loss of the flight crews, their loss is a terrible tragedy.
Thenloss of the aircraft is sad as well though, in a different way. They represented 10s of thousands of man hours over decades to build, fight, restore, maintain etc, and are tangible pieces of a war that is quickly passing out of living memory.
The folks who died will always be the greater loss, but I think they would also mourn the loss of the aircraft they cared deeply about, and had a passion for.
Thenloss of the aircraft is sad as well though, in a different way. They represented 10s of thousands of man hours over decades to build, fight, restore, maintain etc, and are tangible pieces of a war that is quickly passing out of living memory.
The folks who died will always be the greater loss, but I think they would also mourn the loss of the aircraft they cared deeply about, and had a passion for.
This is well said. Of course the lives far outweigh the aircraft, but it is possible to mourn the loss of both.Ag_of_08 said:
Don't think anyone meant to diminish the loss of the flight crews, their loss is a terrible tragedy.
Thenloss of the aircraft is sad as well though, in a different way. They represented 10s of thousands of man hours over decades to build, fight, restore, maintain etc, and are tangible pieces of a war that is quickly passing out of living memory.
The folks who died will always be the greater loss, but I think they would also mourn the loss of the aircraft they cared deeply about, and had a passion for.
91AggieLawyer said:
This is going to be unpopular, if not downright insensitive, but it isn't meant that way. I'm not a fan of airshows and I think they shouldn't exist. Ever since the one in Germany in '87 or '88 where 70 or 80 people died, I've said these things are dangerous. If they're going to exist, they need to be one plane at a time.
Yes, these accidents are rare, but they're always fatal and have the added risk of ground casualties.
We were at a football game near Ellington Field a few weeks ago when the air show was going on. It was great fun to watch. However, at the same time I thought that 1) With so many aircraft flying at the same time in those formations there seemed a reasonable likelihood of a collision and 2) if one of the aircraft collided with another there's a high likelihood that the debris would kill people on the ground. There were a couple of times when I thought debris could've hit the football field in a situation like that.
They absolutely would have. Have met enough to know. They cared enough to be taking the risks to start with. Its not like they don't know of them. Any more than shuttle pilots and astronauts.Ag_of_08 said:
Don't think anyone meant to diminish the loss of the flight crews, their loss is a terrible tragedy.
Thenloss of the aircraft is sad as well though, in a different way. They represented 10s of thousands of man hours over decades to build, fight, restore, maintain etc, and are tangible pieces of a war that is quickly passing out of living memory.
The folks who died will always be the greater loss, but I think they would also mourn the loss of the aircraft they cared deeply about, and had a passion for.
Respect your opinion but over 3800 folks were killed in the US last year as a direct result of texting while driving. We pass BS laws that are suppose to prevent that but really do nothing.
We have the easy technology to prevent texting while the vehicle is moving but we do nothing.
People and spectators have been killed or injured at boat races, car races, motorcycle raises, horse shows etc etc. I guess we should just run one car or boat or horse around the track one at a time.
You can't sterilize the world that no one dies of accidents.
Besides that all the wrongful death and personal injury liability lawyers would be out of a job then.
We have the easy technology to prevent texting while the vehicle is moving but we do nothing.
People and spectators have been killed or injured at boat races, car races, motorcycle raises, horse shows etc etc. I guess we should just run one car or boat or horse around the track one at a time.
You can't sterilize the world that no one dies of accidents.
Besides that all the wrongful death and personal injury liability lawyers would be out of a job then.
BlueTaze said:
Couple more angles🚨 BREAKING 🚨 Two planes collided during an air show in Dallas (video below). 37 people died marking this as the 473rd worse plane crash in US history. Concerning news for the future of the US economy, as passengers consisted mostly of 21 y/o finance interns and Dave Portnoy pic.twitter.com/XWHalNh6AU
— Grunder News Network (@GrunderNews) November 12, 2022
37 people died? I've heard a few different numbers but that's clearly bad info.
This is not meant to call you out on this.
The guy flying that Corsair owns many high performance aircraft. He flies some of them in the Reno air races every year. A very accomplished military fighter pilot.
On high humidity days it is not uncommon for a performance prop fighter to display vapor formation off of high lift flight surfaces.
As I have posted those acts are well planned and well briefed before each and every show.
All CAF pilots that fly in the shows have to attend mandatory training and flying every year to be " air show qualified" for any act.
There is a pre flight briefing every morning before the show begins. Each and every flight path and position of each aircraft is drawn out and discussed. FAA reps attend those briefings and approve the flights.
Then there is de briefings after the show that afternoon.
To the crowds the acts and flights might look close or dangerous.... but are well planned and thought out for the upmost of safety.
Accidents certainly can happen and as long as humans are alive there are things that are going to happen.
The guy flying that Corsair owns many high performance aircraft. He flies some of them in the Reno air races every year. A very accomplished military fighter pilot.
On high humidity days it is not uncommon for a performance prop fighter to display vapor formation off of high lift flight surfaces.
As I have posted those acts are well planned and well briefed before each and every show.
All CAF pilots that fly in the shows have to attend mandatory training and flying every year to be " air show qualified" for any act.
There is a pre flight briefing every morning before the show begins. Each and every flight path and position of each aircraft is drawn out and discussed. FAA reps attend those briefings and approve the flights.
Then there is de briefings after the show that afternoon.
To the crowds the acts and flights might look close or dangerous.... but are well planned and thought out for the upmost of safety.
Accidents certainly can happen and as long as humans are alive there are things that are going to happen.
OMG !!!! Lets all hide we might get hurt.91AggieLawyer said:
This is going to be unpopular, if not downright insensitive, but it isn't meant that way. I'm not a fan of airshows and I think they shouldn't exist. Ever since the one in Germany in '87 or '88 where 70 or 80 people died, I've said these things are dangerous. If they're going to exist, they need to be one plane at a time.
Yes, these accidents are rare, but they're always fatal and have the added risk of ground casualties.
Yeah you are right its an unpopular take. These shows remind us of the DANGER and RISK and DEATH those before us took to preserve this nation so cowards could speak freely.
No wonder our nation is circling the drain. And I bet you sleep with a mask on.
No.Pinochet said:
37 people died? I've heard a few different numbers but that's clearly bad info.
https://www.foxnews.com/us/dallas-air-show-collision-kills-6-authorities-working-id-victims-officials-say
91AggieLawyer said:
This is going to be unpopular, if not downright insensitive, but it isn't meant that way. I'm not a fan of airshows and I think they shouldn't exist. Ever since the one in Germany in '87 or '88 where 70 or 80 people died, I've said these things are dangerous. If they're going to exist, they need to be one plane at a time.
Yes, these accidents are rare, but they're always fatal and have the added risk of ground casualties.
It's obvious you never pay attention to air shows. At American Air Shows, the spectators are in a line parallel to the runway. All maneuvers take place along the axis of that runway, and at a certain distance from the crowd. Any crash or debris will thus fall along that same axis, limiting the possibility of injuries on the ground.
The crash you refer to was in Europe, where at that time, they allowed maneuvers toward the crowd, at a 90 degree angle to the flight line/crowd. IIRC, it was the Italian AF team, and they were doing a maneuver where two groups of planes crossed through each other at a 45 degree angle, and little vertical separation. Don't know if they do that one anymore.
My guess is they intended to type 3-7 and forgot the dash
CanyonAg77 said:
My guess is they intended to type 3-7 and forgot the dash
Did you read the rest of the tweet? It's a joke. The reference to finance interns and Dave Portnoy...tasteless, but a joke.
This. Thank you.
The rest of the tweet was gobbledegook. I guess I'm too unsophisticated to appreciate their "humor",
There wasn't much there to get, no matter the level of sophistication
Thoughtful post pleasure to star.
Been following CAF since it was the Confederate Air Force and before that with Lloyd Nolen's P-51. They have a very good safety record. Safety records do not diminish the loss of the air crews in yesterday's accident.
Texas Raiders and its crew will be missed by the flying community as will the P-63 and its pilot(crew).
Sad but I still remember their first fatality. Ironically it was a P-39 being ferried from Mercedes to Harlingen for an airshow, as i recall.
My condolences to the families and the CAF community.
Been following CAF since it was the Confederate Air Force and before that with Lloyd Nolen's P-51. They have a very good safety record. Safety records do not diminish the loss of the air crews in yesterday's accident.
Texas Raiders and its crew will be missed by the flying community as will the P-63 and its pilot(crew).
Sad but I still remember their first fatality. Ironically it was a P-39 being ferried from Mercedes to Harlingen for an airshow, as i recall.
My condolences to the families and the CAF community.
Climate change, systematic racism, airshows.....have nothing on a 16 year old driver checking her DMs at 70mph.
Yep. The original " Red Nose" P-51. Mr. Nolan purchased if for "$1500 as the story goes.
Most of those first guys and on up till the early 90's were the real deal. Most were WWII or Korea combat pilots.
One of our good friends was Col. Hugh Longmore. He flew the Yellow Rose B-25.
I was honored by flying right seat with him when they took the B-25 from Hondo to SA.
He flew a B-24 in the tragic Polesti raids and survived. One of the most gentle and nicest men I have ever met.
Most of those first guys and on up till the early 90's were the real deal. Most were WWII or Korea combat pilots.
One of our good friends was Col. Hugh Longmore. He flew the Yellow Rose B-25.
I was honored by flying right seat with him when they took the B-25 from Hondo to SA.
He flew a B-24 in the tragic Polesti raids and survived. One of the most gentle and nicest men I have ever met.
Thank you for your reply and I am sorry for the loss of your friends in such a tragic manner. The corsair is has been my favorite plane since the Baa Baa Black Sheep TV series, so was following it around the circuit every time. Not to be argumentative, but what I saw was not a normal part of the show. His exit from the pattern and exit from the show was not a normal. This would have been around 2009-2010 at the big airshow held at Randolph. After the dust settles it would be great if you could ask him about it. I am sure he still remembers it as it is not something I have or will forget.Gunny456 said:
This is not meant to call you out on this.
The guy flying that Corsair owns many high performance aircraft. He flies some of them in the Reno air races every year. A very accomplished military fighter pilot.
On high humidity days it is not uncommon for a performance prop fighter to display vapor formation off of high lift flight surfaces.
As I have posted those acts are well planned and well briefed before each and every show.
All CAF pilots that fly in the shows have to attend mandatory training and flying every year to be " air show qualified" for any act.
There is a pre flight briefing every morning before the show begins. Each and every flight path and position of each aircraft is drawn out and discussed. FAA reps attend those briefings and approve the flights.
Then there is de briefings after the show that afternoon.
To the crowds the acts and flights might look close or dangerous.... but are well planned and thought out for the upmost of safety.
Accidents certainly can happen and as long as humans are alive there are things that are going to happen.
Once again, not being belligerent by any means. I respect your posts on the outdoor board and depth of knowledge.
Is this the P63?
B17 taken at 11:12 that morning.
B17 taken at 11:12 that morning.
Are you aware of the new book (last year) "Corsair Down" by Martin Irons ? Trust me, you would love it. The lore and anecdotes about the aircraft and their pilots. Amazing stuff. Got to review it and know the author. Super research. Boyington is in it too.JB!98 said:Thank you for your reply and I am sorry for the loss of your friends in such a tragic manner. The corsair is has been my favorite plane since the Baa Baa Black Sheep TV series, so was following it around the circuit every time. Not to be argumentative, but what I saw was not a normal part of the show. His exit from the pattern and exit from the show was not a normal. This would have been around 2009-2010 at the big airshow held at Randolph. After the dust settles it would be great if you could ask him about it. I am sure he still remembers it as it is not something I have or will forget.Gunny456 said:
This is not meant to call you out on this.
The guy flying that Corsair owns many high performance aircraft. He flies some of them in the Reno air races every year. A very accomplished military fighter pilot.
On high humidity days it is not uncommon for a performance prop fighter to display vapor formation off of high lift flight surfaces.
As I have posted those acts are well planned and well briefed before each and every show.
All CAF pilots that fly in the shows have to attend mandatory training and flying every year to be " air show qualified" for any act.
There is a pre flight briefing every morning before the show begins. Each and every flight path and position of each aircraft is drawn out and discussed. FAA reps attend those briefings and approve the flights.
Then there is de briefings after the show that afternoon.
To the crowds the acts and flights might look close or dangerous.... but are well planned and thought out for the upmost of safety.
Accidents certainly can happen and as long as humans are alive there are things that are going to happen.
Once again, not being belligerent by any means. I respect your posts on the outdoor board and depth of knowledge.
Corsair Down!: Tales of Rescue and Survival during World War II: Irons, Martin: 9780764362248: Amazon.com: Books
I could not even imagine, and I rode on the B-17 Nine-O-Nine at a show years ago, and it too no longer exists either because of a crash landing.BQ78 said:
I hope they didn't have a plane load of visitors on the 17
Thoughts and prayers go out to all involved, those that witnessed, and those that spend untold hours of love restoring that plane.
"Green" is the new RED.
Awesome! I will get it! That plane is one sexy beast.titan said:Are you aware of the new book (last year) "Corsair Down" by Martin Irons ? Trust me, you would love it. The lore and anecdotes about the aircraft and their pilots. Amazing stuff. Got to review it and know the author. Super research. Boyington is in it too.JB!98 said:Thank you for your reply and I am sorry for the loss of your friends in such a tragic manner. The corsair is has been my favorite plane since the Baa Baa Black Sheep TV series, so was following it around the circuit every time. Not to be argumentative, but what I saw was not a normal part of the show. His exit from the pattern and exit from the show was not a normal. This would have been around 2009-2010 at the big airshow held at Randolph. After the dust settles it would be great if you could ask him about it. I am sure he still remembers it as it is not something I have or will forget.Gunny456 said:
This is not meant to call you out on this.
The guy flying that Corsair owns many high performance aircraft. He flies some of them in the Reno air races every year. A very accomplished military fighter pilot.
On high humidity days it is not uncommon for a performance prop fighter to display vapor formation off of high lift flight surfaces.
As I have posted those acts are well planned and well briefed before each and every show.
All CAF pilots that fly in the shows have to attend mandatory training and flying every year to be " air show qualified" for any act.
There is a pre flight briefing every morning before the show begins. Each and every flight path and position of each aircraft is drawn out and discussed. FAA reps attend those briefings and approve the flights.
Then there is de briefings after the show that afternoon.
To the crowds the acts and flights might look close or dangerous.... but are well planned and thought out for the upmost of safety.
Accidents certainly can happen and as long as humans are alive there are things that are going to happen.
Once again, not being belligerent by any means. I respect your posts on the outdoor board and depth of knowledge.
Corsair Down!: Tales of Rescue and Survival during World War II: Irons, Martin: 9780764362248: Amazon.com: Books
Fantastic if you didn't already know. Tell anyone you think might be interested. You won't regret buying it for a nano-second if you love the Corsair. What a fascinating study too, of the logistics of a fighter's production and little finnicky details of flying the beast.
A little off topic, but in a couple of weeks there will be a movie released called Devotion, featuring F4U-4 Corsairs in the Korean War. Not vouching for authenticity here, but sounds like we have some Corsair fans on the boards (I am one of them).
Like JB!98, I've been a Corsair fan since the Black Sheep Squadron series. Thanks for the recommendation Titan, just ordered the book.
I read the Devotion book and it's an amazing story. It should be a great movie if Hollywood doesn't go overboard on the woke nonsense.
I read the Devotion book and it's an amazing story. It should be a great movie if Hollywood doesn't go overboard on the woke nonsense.
Iron's other book on Okinawa fight of aircraft vs destroyers "Phalanx against Divine Wind" is fantastic also.Kaa98 said:
Like JB!98, I've been a Corsair fan since the Black Sheep Squadron series. Thanks for the recommendation Titan, just ordered the book.
I read the Devotion book and it's an amazing story. It should be a great movie if Hollywood doesn't go overboard on the woke nonsense.
If Devotion is what believe it is, it was black pilots and impressive enough. The truth requires no absurd woke padding.
Hey no offense taken. To the contrary.
He passed three or four years ago. Quite a character. Ex Marine. Had lots of money though.
You surely could be spot on..... wish I could ask him... he would explain it in a very loud and gruff tone with lots of colorful metaphors mixed in jarhead style I'm sure.
There was more than one reason the Japanese called the F4U Corsairs " whistleing death"!
He passed three or four years ago. Quite a character. Ex Marine. Had lots of money though.
You surely could be spot on..... wish I could ask him... he would explain it in a very loud and gruff tone with lots of colorful metaphors mixed in jarhead style I'm sure.
There was more than one reason the Japanese called the F4U Corsairs " whistleing death"!
Not aware but thanks for sharing! Gotta get me a copy for sure.
I think people can enjoy an airshow without airplanes flying acrobatic maneuvers with other airplanes around/formation. Single aircraft acrobatics are fun to watch and less dangerous.
Here's a novel idea. As long as both the re-enactors and those going to watch don't care about and accept the danger, just let that proceed. Keep the flight paths away from anything else (they already do--this landed "on site")
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