***Russian - Ukraine War Tactical and Strategic Updates*** [Warning on OP]
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Last: 16 min ago by JFABNRGR
They must have gotten a batch off of the assembly line. JIT manufacturing for the ORCs.
Today's SITREP.
We used 10% of our defense budget. I don't think that's overloading anything.
The EU and individual European nations have contributed more aid for Ukraine than the US in both total dollars and in percent of GDP.ttu_85 said:Germany, GB, Italy, etc are at most spending 2% of GDP on "defense". And these are top 10 global economies. Germany alone is ranked 4 or 5 with an eco of 4.5T. They are more than capable of countering Russia, GPD (2.0T) which is an eco smaller than TEXAS @(2.5T). Think about that.twk said:That's a stretch.AgLA06 said:Maybe we could start the America First Committee Mr. Lindbergh.AlaskanAg99 said:
At the end of the day, this is an issue in the EU backyard. They should be pulling the lions share of support.
Doesn't bother me thar we sent obsolete hardware over but as that dries up EU countries need to be paying to support Ukraine.
As long as the EU nations are incapable of defending themselves (which they are, by their own admission), there is going to be a problem with an aggressive Russia as a neighbor.
.......and they are F.O.S
Taking prime responsibility for Ukraine's defense, not only by sending money but ramping up their manufacturing of munitions and arms, is a sensible first step in any policy of Russian containment.
.....Very true
I think it would be mistake for America to simply walk away, but we have good reasons for demanding that Europe carry more of the load here.
....Damn right we do.
We should absolutely demand that NATO Europe with a GDP of $18T be handling most of its defense needs. What we have today is inexcusable BS and free loading. Poland is the only country truly nutting up for this job.
I am all for containing Russia but not at the risk of overloading our own eco and dangerously reducing our own inventories. Plus it would help if people trusted this admin, which they dont. Sorry but in this case politics do matter but not as much as economic reality and responsibility .
"America has spent about 10 percent of one year's defense budget aiding and arming Ukraine since Russia's invasion in early 2022. With that, Ukraine "has destroyed half of Russia's pre-war military assets." "Now, if that isn't a good investment, I don't know what is," Cameron said.
It's an investment being shared across the world, Cameron said. European military, civilian, economic, and humanitarian aid is roughly $160 billion, and the U.K. is the second largest donor after the U.S. at $44 billion
Ukraine aid has also helped reinvigorate the U.S. industrial base, Cameron noted, pointing to recent analyses that found almost 90 percent of the money spent on Ukraine stays in Americato manufacture weaponry and materiel."
VALUE
Europe is also taking care of millions of Ukrainian refugees
Very interesting nugget of a post in the comments to that article. Some of those northernmost reaches of Ukraine are just at 500km from Moscow74OA said:
Today's SITREP.
Quote:
The delivery of Precision Strike Missile Increment 1 early operational capability missiles follows successful production qualification testing in November at White Sands Missile Range, New Mexico," the Army wrote in a short announcement today. The service previously said it was awaiting a final test report before accepting those initial missiles, a document that presumably verified the Lockheed Martin-developed long-range weapon is ready for prime time.
PrSM Inc 1 is designed to be fired from the M142 High Mobility Artillery Rocket System (HIMARS) and the M270A2 Multiple Launch Rocket System (MLRS). The new missile was designed to strike targets 500 km away a distance greater than the legacy Army Tactical Missile System's (ATACMS) 70-300 km range they are set to replace but the service hasn't disclosed if it will in fact hit that range
Quote:
As the Army prepares for PrSM Inc 1 fielding, it is also working on enhanced versions of the weapon, including an Increment 2 with a multimode seeker, known as the Land-Based Anti-Ship Missile (LBASM) seeker, and a PrSM Inc 3 which would seek to add in enhanced lethality payloads.
https://breakingdefense.com/2023/12/lockheed-begins-delivering-prsm-inc-1-to-army/
2wealfth Man said:Very interesting nugget of a post in the comments to that article. Some of those northernmost reaches of Ukraine are just at 500km from Moscow74OA said:
Today's SITREP.Quote:
The delivery of Precision Strike Missile Increment 1 early operational capability missiles follows successful production qualification testing in November at White Sands Missile Range, New Mexico," the Army wrote in a short announcement today. The service previously said it was awaiting a final test report before accepting those initial missiles, a document that presumably verified the Lockheed Martin-developed long-range weapon is ready for prime time.
PrSM Inc 1 is designed to be fired from the M142 High Mobility Artillery Rocket System (HIMARS) and the M270A2 Multiple Launch Rocket System (MLRS). The new missile was designed to strike targets 500 km away a distance greater than the legacy Army Tactical Missile System's (ATACMS) 70-300 km range they are set to replace but the service hasn't disclosed if it will in fact hit that rangeQuote:
As the Army prepares for PrSM Inc 1 fielding, it is also working on enhanced versions of the weapon, including an Increment 2 with a multimode seeker, known as the Land-Based Anti-Ship Missile (LBASM) seeker, and a PrSM Inc 3 which would seek to add in enhanced lethality payloads.
https://breakingdefense.com/2023/12/lockheed-begins-delivering-prsm-inc-1-to-army/
Sounds like a great test to me. Fire a salvo of 6 for accurate test results.
PrSM going into production supplements our ATACMS inventory and eliminates one of the cited reasons for not giving Ukraine more of those longer-range tactical missiles.2wealfth Man said:Very interesting nugget of a post in the comments to that article. Some of those northernmost reaches of Ukraine are just at 500km from Moscow74OA said:
Today's SITREP.Quote:
The delivery of Precision Strike Missile Increment 1 early operational capability missiles follows successful production qualification testing in November at White Sands Missile Range, New Mexico," the Army wrote in a short announcement today. The service previously said it was awaiting a final test report before accepting those initial missiles, a document that presumably verified the Lockheed Martin-developed long-range weapon is ready for prime time.
PrSM Inc 1 is designed to be fired from the M142 High Mobility Artillery Rocket System (HIMARS) and the M270A2 Multiple Launch Rocket System (MLRS). The new missile was designed to strike targets 500 km away a distance greater than the legacy Army Tactical Missile System's (ATACMS) 70-300 km range they are set to replace but the service hasn't disclosed if it will in fact hit that rangeQuote:
As the Army prepares for PrSM Inc 1 fielding, it is also working on enhanced versions of the weapon, including an Increment 2 with a multimode seeker, known as the Land-Based Anti-Ship Missile (LBASM) seeker, and a PrSM Inc 3 which would seek to add in enhanced lethality payloads.
https://breakingdefense.com/2023/12/lockheed-begins-delivering-prsm-inc-1-to-army/
PrSM
74OA said:PrSM going into production supplements our ATACMS inventory and eliminates one of the cited reasons for not giving Ukraine more of those longer-range tactical missiles.2wealfth Man said:Very interesting nugget of a post in the comments to that article. Some of those northernmost reaches of Ukraine are just at 500km from Moscow74OA said:
Today's SITREP.Quote:
The delivery of Precision Strike Missile Increment 1 early operational capability missiles follows successful production qualification testing in November at White Sands Missile Range, New Mexico," the Army wrote in a short announcement today. The service previously said it was awaiting a final test report before accepting those initial missiles, a document that presumably verified the Lockheed Martin-developed long-range weapon is ready for prime time.
PrSM Inc 1 is designed to be fired from the M142 High Mobility Artillery Rocket System (HIMARS) and the M270A2 Multiple Launch Rocket System (MLRS). The new missile was designed to strike targets 500 km away a distance greater than the legacy Army Tactical Missile System's (ATACMS) 70-300 km range they are set to replace but the service hasn't disclosed if it will in fact hit that rangeQuote:
As the Army prepares for PrSM Inc 1 fielding, it is also working on enhanced versions of the weapon, including an Increment 2 with a multimode seeker, known as the Land-Based Anti-Ship Missile (LBASM) seeker, and a PrSM Inc 3 which would seek to add in enhanced lethality payloads.
https://breakingdefense.com/2023/12/lockheed-begins-delivering-prsm-inc-1-to-army/
PrSM
Quote:
To date, the Army has declined to disclose PrSM's exact maximum range, stating only that it is at least around 250 miles (400 kilometers). However, a declassified Pentagon Selected Acquisition Report (SAR) on the program released earlier this year says that it is actually around 310 miles (500 kilometers) and that this could grow to some 400 miles (650 kilometers).
Europe still doesn't get a pass for their historically inadequate spending levels on defense. They have been on a better trajectory for the past 21 months but they need adequately sized, trained, and equipped armies and air forces at home.
No one is giving Europe a pass on its anemic defense spending. But at the same time, let's give them credit for walking their talk in support of Ukraine and spending more on aid than we do while also hosting millions of Ukrainian refugees.
Well, uh they are immediate neighbors and face a greater threat of the Russian bear. Weight it all together-- their risk to cost to benefit-- their defense spending is on the cheap. No one is saying its a no show but Germany in particular is really loafing.74OA said:
No one is giving Europe a pass on its anemic defense spending. But at the same time, let's give them credit for walking their talk in support of Ukraine and spending more on aid than we do while also hosting millions of Ukrainian refugees.
Yes I know, Leopards, but there's more to it than that.
The $160B Europe has spent on Ukraine is hardly "on the cheap". Let's not conflate Europe's defense spending--anemic but improving--with its spending on Ukraine which has been very generous from the war's beginning.ttu_85 said:Well, uh they are immediate neighbors and face a greater threat of the Russian bear. Weight it all together-- their risk to cost to benefit-- their defense spending is on the cheap. No one is saying its a no show but Germany in particular is really loafing.74OA said:
No one is giving Europe a pass on its anemic defense spending. But at the same time, let's give them credit for walking their talk in support of Ukraine and spending more on aid than we do while also hosting millions of Ukrainian refugees.
Yes I know, Leopards, but there's more to it than that.
BTW, Germany: AID MILITARY
— 🇺🇦Ukrainian Front (@front_ukrainian) December 10, 2023
Smartphone of a Russian soldier captured the sounds of an intense Ukrainian FPV drone attack on the Russian position: this is how it sounds when they are flying nearby hitting their targets
— Euromaidan Press (@EuromaidanPress) December 10, 2023
📹 via https://t.co/b87xxho2au pic.twitter.com/oBeEvVfXxl
mini stukas
Pretty much. Screaming mimi came to mind.BQ_90 said:
mini stukas
Sounds like a swarm of bees
Are they all suicide now or still dropping grenades?
It seems they've essentially created a close in air support RC air force.AlaskanAg99 said:
Are they all suicide now or still dropping grenades?
They can be suicide (point of impact), scout / reconnaissance, artillery support / BDA, defensive warning system, light bomber (grenades / antipersonnel morters), heavy bomber (Baba Yaga anti tank mines), fighters (anti observation drone), etc.
Thinking about it, you could create an entire front line / TAC group for every company that commands these things along the front line troops. All they need is a van supplied arsenal and they can spin them up in coordination for observation, assaults, or defense. You could justify an entire platoon of these guys just like we do for the heavy weapon section.
The next step is elint counter drones looking for the drone control locations by tracking the drone controller signals.AgLA06 said:It seems they've essentially created a close in air support RC air force.AlaskanAg99 said:
Are they all suicide now or still dropping grenades?
They can be suicide (point of impact), scout / reconnaissance, artillery support / BDA, defensive warning system, light bomber (grenades / antipersonnel morters), heavy bomber (Baba Yaga anti tank mines), fighters (anti observation drone), etc.
Thinking about it, you could create an entire front line / TAC group for every company that commands these things along the front line troops. All they need is a van supplied arsenal and they can spin them up in coordination for observation, assaults, or defense. You could justify an entire platoon of these guys just like we do for the heavy weapon section.
That's old news. They've been targeting drone operators since basically day one. Initially with jamming, signal triangulation, and even using DJI law enforcement snooping systems that could capture the DJI drone and operator locations.txags92 said:The next step is elint counter drones looking for the drone control locations by tracking the drone controller signals.AgLA06 said:It seems they've essentially created a close in air support RC air force.AlaskanAg99 said:
Are they all suicide now or still dropping grenades?
They can be suicide (point of impact), scout / reconnaissance, artillery support / BDA, defensive warning system, light bomber (grenades / antipersonnel morters), heavy bomber (Baba Yaga anti tank mines), fighters (anti observation drone), etc.
Thinking about it, you could create an entire front line / TAC group for every company that commands these things along the front line troops. All they need is a van supplied arsenal and they can spin them up in coordination for observation, assaults, or defense. You could justify an entire platoon of these guys just like we do for the heavy weapon section.
Since transitioning to more indigenous designs with encrypted signals, frequency hopping, and using drones as signal relays, it has become harder to target the operators.
Kinda surprised we haven't seen new weapons like flichetting rocket pods or the like. Unguided but cheap area of effect weapons off of drones.txags92 said:The next step is elint counter drones looking for the drone control locations by tracking the drone controller signals.AgLA06 said:It seems they've essentially created a close in air support RC air force.AlaskanAg99 said:
Are they all suicide now or still dropping grenades?
They can be suicide (point of impact), scout / reconnaissance, artillery support / BDA, defensive warning system, light bomber (grenades / antipersonnel morters), heavy bomber (Baba Yaga anti tank mines), fighters (anti observation drone), etc.
Thinking about it, you could create an entire front line / TAC group for every company that commands these things along the front line troops. All they need is a van supplied arsenal and they can spin them up in coordination for observation, assaults, or defense. You could justify an entire platoon of these guys just like we do for the heavy weapon section.
AgLA06 said:It seems they've essentially created a close in air support RC air force.AlaskanAg99 said:
Are they all suicide now or still dropping grenades?
They can be suicide (point of impact), scout / reconnaissance, artillery support / BDA, defensive warning system, light bomber (grenades / antipersonnel morters), heavy bomber (Baba Yaga anti tank mines), fighters (anti observation drone), etc.
Thinking about it, you could create an entire front line / TAC group for every company that commands these things along the front line troops. All they need is a van supplied arsenal and they can spin them up in coordination for observation, assaults, or defense. You could justify an entire platoon of these guys just like we do for the heavy weapon section.
I am positive this is where we are headed. The USMC in particular has retired its Scout Sniper makeup entirely. VERY contentious decision when it was made but this current war has validated it to the point even the stubborn defenders have to nod at it now. (That includes me). There are still needed for the Recon role and will live in dedicated recon units now instead of embedded with infantry. Gone are the days of a sniper team crawling through the bush. (For now at least) Too much to lose when drones and their sensors do it better and cheaper. Stupid even in most cases.
The Marines have also been implementing a dedicated systems operator per rifle squad. These are the sensor and drone guys. They've been testing this config for a while and I imagine it will stick long term. The next logical step is implementing weaponized small FPV drones into this squad level make up. More capable drones in larger units like battalion and regimental level.
Part of the reason why I have found this conflict so damn interesting. It is a crazy dichotomy of ancient warfare mixed with literal cutting edge combat technique and tech. You currently have hunter/killer drones assassinating men in trenches or seeking out and blowing up high level assets. Wild times.
I truly don't think it is hyperbole to say we are witnessing the paradigm shift of warfare happening only seen once every few generations or so in real time and it's happening real damn quick. Buncha farmers out there making **** work because they have to and changing war fighting forever at the same time. Crazy hicks, I swear….
BEGUN, THE DRONES WARS HAVE
Excellent posts not much to add other than Ukes have been using more and more air burst from the mini drones with increased effect, meanwhile orcs in certain areas are constructing whole roofing systems over their trenches to TRY and protect themselves. Somebody should tell them the drones also spot for the Arty.Eliminatus said:AgLA06 said:It seems they've essentially created a close in air support RC air force.AlaskanAg99 said:
Are they all suicide now or still dropping grenades?
They can be suicide (point of impact), scout / reconnaissance, artillery support / BDA, defensive warning system, light bomber (grenades / antipersonnel morters), heavy bomber (Baba Yaga anti tank mines), fighters (anti observation drone), etc.
Thinking about it, you could create an entire front line / TAC group for every company that commands these things along the front line troops. All they need is a van supplied arsenal and they can spin them up in coordination for observation, assaults, or defense. You could justify an entire platoon of these guys just like we do for the heavy weapon section.
I am positive this is where we are headed. The USMC in particular has retired its Scout Sniper makeup entirely. VERY contentious decision when it was made but this current war has validated it to the point even the stubborn defenders have to nod at it now. (That includes me). There are still needed for the Recon role and will live in dedicated recon units now instead of embedded with infantry. Gone are the days of a sniper team crawling through the bush. (For now at least) Too much to lose when drones and their sensors do it better and cheaper. Stupid even in most cases.
The Marines have also been implementing a dedicated systems operator per rifle squad. These are the sensor and drone guys. They've been testing this config for a while and I imagine it will stick long term. The next logical step is implementing weaponized small FPV drones into this squad level make up. More capable drones in larger units like battalion and regimental level.
Part of the reason why I have found this conflict so damn interesting. It is a crazy dichotomy of ancient warfare mixed with literal cutting edge combat technique and tech. You currently have hunter/killer drones assassinating men in trenches or seeking out and blowing up high level assets. Wild times.
I truly don't think it is hyperbole to say we are witnessing the paradigm shift of warfare happening only seen once every few generations or so in real time and it's happening real damn quick. Buncha farmers out there making **** work because they have to and changing war fighting forever at the same time. Crazy hicks, I swear….
BEGUN, THE DRONES WARS HAVE
And the cost ratio is off the charts...less than $1K drone killers destroying equipment worth millions.
Speaking of air bursts did anyone else see the BDA vid of the truck loads of orcs hit by M30A1 Himars strike? It was on reddit briefly then removed, was not any gore, but whomever was in the blast radius was dead and there were a lot of bodies both in and around the troop trucks, that looked like our old duece and half.
That cost ratio is huge. We have almost always focused on the shiny golden BBs in our tech. Sometimes to a fault. Something I have felt was at least partially in error and thankfully Russias newest war has finally made some realities apparent to some stakeholders and trust me when I say at least a few things have pivoted in defense. Rather than our own dead and wounded which is usually the case for learning what works and what doesn't. If you really want to dial into the main problem though, IMO it is lead time for complex weapon production rather than just straight cost. Most of our high tech precision stuff is made in batches and it can take months to get lines up and running again and even years to expand them if demand is high. There was something like 2x number of Russian armored vehicles then there were total Javelin ATGMs in the world at one point. Which are batch made and takes time to spool up.
And that HIMARs hit was devastating. Couple of those trucks I am not sure anyone survived at all. That strike was from a little while ago and I was wondering if we would ever see the actual close up effects of it….
And that HIMARs hit was devastating. Couple of those trucks I am not sure anyone survived at all. That strike was from a little while ago and I was wondering if we would ever see the actual close up effects of it….
Tungsten rain. Brutal. Reported as 76 KIA ... so no telling how many.Eliminatus said:
And that HIMARs hit was devastating. Couple of those trucks I am not sure anyone survived at all. That strike was from a little while ago and I was wondering if we would ever see the actual close up effects of it….
How the drone wars escalate? Larger numbers of more autonomous drones. Using them where they may not be sufficiently discriminatory on targets might be regarded as a war crime but many won't care in the future.
https://www.cnn.com/politics/live-news/zelensky-biden-visit-12-12-23#h_80a87d6b200a0b6b4ffbb29a1f0871cb
According to declassified US Intel, Russia has lost 87% of its prewar men who have fought in Ukraine.
That's seems rather unbelievable as an 87% reduction in your beginning forces feels like it'd lead to defeat.
Russia has a big army but surely these losses are beyond what they can backfill. If Ukraine cannot breakthrough, I don't see how the ever could
According to declassified US Intel, Russia has lost 87% of its prewar men who have fought in Ukraine.
That's seems rather unbelievable as an 87% reduction in your beginning forces feels like it'd lead to defeat.
Quote:
Of the 360,000 troops that entered Ukraine, including contract and conscript personnel, Russia has lost 315,000 on the battlefield, according to the assessment. 2,200 of 3,500 tanks have been lost, according to the assessment. 4,400 of 13,600 infantry fighting vehicles and armored personnel carriers have also been destroyed, a 32 percent loss rate.
Russia has a big army but surely these losses are beyond what they can backfill. If Ukraine cannot breakthrough, I don't see how the ever could
and yet they somehow manage to keep throwing flesh into the grinder at places like Bakhmut and Andiivka however it is acquired......Agthatbuilds said:
https://www.cnn.com/politics/live-news/zelensky-biden-visit-12-12-23#h_80a87d6b200a0b6b4ffbb29a1f0871cb
According to declassified US Intel, Russia has lost 87% of its prewar men who have fought in Ukraine.
That's seems rather unbelievable as an 87% reduction in your beginning forces feels like it'd lead to defeat.Quote:
Of the 360,000 troops that entered Ukraine, including contract and conscript personnel, Russia has lost 315,000 on the battlefield, according to the assessment. 2,200 of 3,500 tanks have been lost, according to the assessment. 4,400 of 13,600 infantry fighting vehicles and armored personnel carriers have also been destroyed, a 32 percent loss rate.
Russia has a big army but surely these losses are beyond what they can backfill. If Ukraine cannot breakthrough, I don't see how the ever could
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