***Russian - Ukraine War Tactical and Strategic Updates*** [Warning on OP]

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USAFAg
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In reply to ABATTBQ11 • 8:52a, 3/21/22
AG
ABATTBQ11 said:
cbr said:
Green2Maroon said:
Ukraine does have over 800 tanks. I hope they understand how best to utilize them in this. May be pretty important to keep the supply lines to Kyiv open, for one thing.
From what i am seeing, it appears that the era of the armored vehicle is over. They appear to be obsoleted by man portable missiles now. Hell close air aupport may not be far behind.

Id be advancing those darpa/heinlein armored infantry suits now and forget about tanks. Theyre only useful against civilians now it seems.


No. Armor will catch up. We'll likely see more scuff countermeasures to defeat ATGM's, like electronic countermeasures to defeat their seeker heads or lasers or something to actively shoot them down.


Right...the "gun v. armor" race will continue. And the Russians aren't/can't using them right. The tank is "dead" has been a mantra for decades that has been proven wrong again and again.

12thFan/Websider Since 2003
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chickencoupe16
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In reply to USAFAg • 9:03a, 3/21/22
AG
USA*** said:
ABATTBQ11 said:
cbr said:
Green2Maroon said:
Ukraine does have over 800 tanks. I hope they understand how best to utilize them in this. May be pretty important to keep the supply lines to Kyiv open, for one thing.
From what i am seeing, it appears that the era of the armored vehicle is over. They appear to be obsoleted by man portable missiles now. Hell close air aupport may not be far behind.

Id be advancing those darpa/heinlein armored infantry suits now and forget about tanks. Theyre only useful against civilians now it seems.


No. Armor will catch up. We'll likely see more scuff countermeasures to defeat ATGM's, like electronic countermeasures to defeat their seeker heads or lasers or something to actively shoot them down.


Right...the "gun v. armor" race will continue. And the Russians aren't/can't using them right. The tank is "dead" has been a mantra for decades that has been proven wrong again and again.


The Marines have abandoned tanks in favor of missiles. They also have hyper-mobility aims with their new doctrine focused on area denial and island hopping in the Pacific, so their decision is certainly not applicable across all battlefields, but it does make you think, especially combined with what we're seeing in Ukraine.

I do tend to agree that the tank is not dead. I think western tanks would fare better than the Russian ones are and that active defenses like the Trophy system will even the playing field, at least for a time.
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USAFAg
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In reply to chickencoupe16 • 9:10a, 3/21/22
AG
chickencoupe16 said:
USA*** said:
ABATTBQ11 said:
cbr said:
Green2Maroon said:
Ukraine does have over 800 tanks. I hope they understand how best to utilize them in this. May be pretty important to keep the supply lines to Kyiv open, for one thing.
From what i am seeing, it appears that the era of the armored vehicle is over. They appear to be obsoleted by man portable missiles now. Hell close air aupport may not be far behind.

Id be advancing those darpa/heinlein armored infantry suits now and forget about tanks. Theyre only useful against civilians now it seems.


No. Armor will catch up. We'll likely see more scuff countermeasures to defeat ATGM's, like electronic countermeasures to defeat their seeker heads or lasers or something to actively shoot them down.


Right...the "gun v. armor" race will continue. And the Russians aren't/can't using them right. The tank is "dead" has been a mantra for decades that has been proven wrong again and again.


The Marines have abandoned tanks in favor of missiles. They also have hyper-mobility aims with their new doctrine focused on area denial and island hopping in the Pacific, so their decision is certainly not applicable across all battlefields, but it does make you think, especially combined with what we're seeing in Ukraine.

I do tend to agree that the tank is not dead. I think western tanks would fare better than the Russian ones are and that active defenses like the Trophy system will even the playing field, at least for a time.



Right. Whether it be a return to the original doctrine of the USMC, or was budget driven (the Marines had become a poorer, smaller Army Corps), the lethality of modern anti-armor weapons have put a dent is the "tank terror" that used to prevail.

Tanks aren't dead, they just need to adapt...again.

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Who?mikejones!
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9:17a, 3/21/22
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Not a Bot
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9:19a, 3/21/22
AG
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wbt5845
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In reply to Who?mikejones! • 9:19a, 3/21/22
AG
This would be bad.
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Keegan99
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In reply to Who?mikejones! • 9:20a, 3/21/22
AG
That would mean all diplomatic missions closed, correct? No more Russian embassies or consulates here, and no more US embassies or consulates there.
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black_ice
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In reply to Who?mikejones! • 9:20a, 3/21/22
Agthatbuilds said:







It begins.
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No Spin Ag
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In reply to Keegan99 • 9:26a, 3/21/22
Keegan99 said:
That would mean all diplomatic missions closed, correct? No more Russian embassies or consulates here, and no more US embassies or consulates there.


Aside from what you mentioned, and of course nuking us, what else could come from this?
There are in fact two things, science and opinion; the former begets knowledge, the later ignorance. Hippocrates
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SPSAg05
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9:27a, 3/21/22
AG


If it looks like a duck, and it quacks like a duck.......
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Waffledynamics
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In reply to Who?mikejones! • 9:28a, 3/21/22
AG
Agthatbuilds said:


Hasn't this happened before?
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ABATTBQ11
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In reply to chickencoupe16 • 9:31a, 3/21/22
AG
chickencoupe16 said:
USA*** said:
ABATTBQ11 said:
cbr said:
Green2Maroon said:
Ukraine does have over 800 tanks. I hope they understand how best to utilize them in this. May be pretty important to keep the supply lines to Kyiv open, for one thing.
From what i am seeing, it appears that the era of the armored vehicle is over. They appear to be obsoleted by man portable missiles now. Hell close air aupport may not be far behind.

Id be advancing those darpa/heinlein armored infantry suits now and forget about tanks. Theyre only useful against civilians now it seems.


No. Armor will catch up. We'll likely see more scuff countermeasures to defeat ATGM's, like electronic countermeasures to defeat their seeker heads or lasers or something to actively shoot them down.


Right...the "gun v. armor" race will continue. And the Russians aren't/can't using them right. The tank is "dead" has been a mantra for decades that has been proven wrong again and again.


The Marines have abandoned tanks in favor of missiles. They also have hyper-mobility aims with their new doctrine focused on area denial and island hopping in the Pacific, so their decision is certainly not applicable across all battlefields, but it does make you think, especially combined with what we're seeing in Ukraine.

I do tend to agree that the tank is not dead. I think western tanks would fare better than the Russian ones are and that active defenses like the Trophy system will even the playing field, at least for a time.


Yeah. The tank doesn't belong on every battlefield. The Marines are smart to plan for that kind of warfare as tanks just won't be useful in any of those scenarios. Other armor, yes, but not tanks. They're too bulky and slow. The biggest threat they'll face is from offshore, and that's also where they'll need to project the most power.
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Waffledynamics
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In reply to SPSAg05 • 9:34a, 3/21/22
AG
SPSAg05 said:


If it looks like a duck, and it quacks like a duck.......


Yeah this looks like bluster designed to make the US cower. The correct response is to double down.

They will push where there is mush. Stop giving them mush.
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rgag12
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In reply to Waffledynamics • 9:35a, 3/21/22
AG
Waffledynamics said:
Agthatbuilds said:


Hasn't this happened before?


Yes. Don't put too much stock into it
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aggiehawg
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In reply to No Spin Ag • 9:38a, 3/21/22
AG
No Spin Ag said:
Keegan99 said:
That would mean all diplomatic missions closed, correct? No more Russian embassies or consulates here, and no more US embassies or consulates there.


Aside from what you mentioned, and of course nuking us, what else could come from this?
Communications would have to go back channel, meaning our military would be in contact with their military. Or it could be back channel through the CIA to the GRU or FSB.

If back channels are also closed, then another country that still has relations with Russia can function as our proxy.
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RebelE Infantry
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In reply to aggiehawg • 9:44a, 3/21/22
AG
aggiehawg said:
No Spin Ag said:
Keegan99 said:
That would mean all diplomatic missions closed, correct? No more Russian embassies or consulates here, and no more US embassies or consulates there.


Aside from what you mentioned, and of course nuking us, what else could come from this?
Communications would have to go back channel, meaning our military would be in contact with their military. Or it could be back channel through the CIA to the GRU or FSB.

If back channels are also closed, then another country that still has relations with Russia can function as our proxy.


Most likely Israel in this case.

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Blackbeard94
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9:55a, 3/21/22
AG
I read an opinion piece in the WSJ by Bing West. He argues that Biden should set the standard that no matter what happens in Ukraine, the West does not lift sanctions until Putin is gone.

I think this is the right approach. Even with a complete Russian defeat and withdrawal, we cannot accept a leader on the world stage that would order up this kind of savagery.

This also would help any fence sitters in Russia to realize they need to take this guy out. Would serve as deterrent to future aggressors as well.

Biden would need to lead but this should not be a heavy lift given the mood among our Nato allies.
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evan_aggie
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In reply to Blackbeard94 • 10:01a, 3/21/22
AG
Absolutely. He may be turning into a ruthless dictator as time goes on, but he will be ousted (somehow) when his country regresses 50+ years. Couple that with a strong desire for EU to actually shift oil/gas consumption to alternatives.

Hopefully they don't have a short memory however this is concluded.
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wtmartinaggie
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In reply to USAFAg • 10:03a, 3/21/22
AG
When you run out of guided missiles, the only thing dead is whatever is in front of the tank.
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LostInLA07
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In reply to Waffledynamics • 10:10a, 3/21/22
AG
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deddog
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10:11a, 3/21/22
AG
Where are the Neptunes?

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rgag12
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10:21a, 3/21/22
AG
I've followed this guy ever since a poster on here posted a round table that featured him. His takes seem very objective and level-headed, and he comes on to this podcast every week for a high-level tactical discussion about the war for those who are interested.

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Build It
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In reply to deddog • 10:30a, 3/21/22
AG
Exactly, when do we see these ships start sinking? Waiting until the landing ships are full of troops? We know the Ukes have Neptune's.

Hoping they start sinking before they shell Odessa into oblivion.
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Not a Bot
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10:30a, 3/21/22
AG
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USAFAg
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In reply to Build It • 10:32a, 3/21/22
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Build It said:
Exactly, when do we see these ships start sinking? Waiting until the landing ships are full of troops? We know the Ukes have Neptune's.

Hoping they start sinking before they shell Odessa into oblivion.



Wait for 'phibs. Warships can't take the town away from you, troops can....

May not have enough Neptune's for everyone.

12thFan/Websider Since 2003
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option short side
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In reply to Robk • 10:35a, 3/21/22
AG
Robk said:


Interesting read.

Great Post. Amazing how not having professional NCOs bleeds into every aspect.
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BlueSmoke
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In reply to ABATTBQ11 • 10:55a, 3/21/22
ABATTBQ11 said:
chickencoupe16 said:
USA*** said:
ABATTBQ11 said:
cbr said:
Green2Maroon said:
Ukraine does have over 800 tanks. I hope they understand how best to utilize them in this. May be pretty important to keep the supply lines to Kyiv open, for one thing.
From what i am seeing, it appears that the era of the armored vehicle is over. They appear to be obsoleted by man portable missiles now. Hell close air aupport may not be far behind.

Id be advancing those darpa/heinlein armored infantry suits now and forget about tanks. Theyre only useful against civilians now it seems.


No. Armor will catch up. We'll likely see more scuff countermeasures to defeat ATGM's, like electronic countermeasures to defeat their seeker heads or lasers or something to actively shoot them down.


Right...the "gun v. armor" race will continue. And the Russians aren't/can't using them right. The tank is "dead" has been a mantra for decades that has been proven wrong again and again.


The Marines have abandoned tanks in favor of missiles. They also have hyper-mobility aims with their new doctrine focused on area denial and island hopping in the Pacific, so their decision is certainly not applicable across all battlefields, but it does make you think, especially combined with what we're seeing in Ukraine.

I do tend to agree that the tank is not dead. I think western tanks would fare better than the Russian ones are and that active defenses like the Trophy system will even the playing field, at least for a time.


Yeah. The tank doesn't belong on every battlefield. The Marines are smart to plan for that kind of warfare as tanks just won't be useful in any of those scenarios. Other armor, yes, but not tanks. They're too bulky and slow. The biggest threat they'll face is from offshore, and that's also where they'll need to project the most power.
We learned early on that tanks minus robust infantry support can be helpless. Especially in urban settings.
Nobody cares. Work Harder
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74OA
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In reply to BlueSmoke • 11:37a, 3/21/22
AG
BlueSmoke said:
ABATTBQ11 said:
chickencoupe16 said:
USA*** said:
ABATTBQ11 said:
cbr said:
Green2Maroon said:
Ukraine does have over 800 tanks. I hope they understand how best to utilize them in this. May be pretty important to keep the supply lines to Kyiv open, for one thing.
From what i am seeing, it appears that the era of the armored vehicle is over. They appear to be obsoleted by man portable missiles now. Hell close air aupport may not be far behind.

Id be advancing those darpa/heinlein armored infantry suits now and forget about tanks. Theyre only useful against civilians now it seems.


No. Armor will catch up. We'll likely see more scuff countermeasures to defeat ATGM's, like electronic countermeasures to defeat their seeker heads or lasers or something to actively shoot them down.


Right...the "gun v. armor" race will continue. And the Russians aren't/can't using them right. The tank is "dead" has been a mantra for decades that has been proven wrong again and again.


The Marines have abandoned tanks in favor of missiles. They also have hyper-mobility aims with their new doctrine focused on area denial and island hopping in the Pacific, so their decision is certainly not applicable across all battlefields, but it does make you think, especially combined with what we're seeing in Ukraine.

I do tend to agree that the tank is not dead. I think western tanks would fare better than the Russian ones are and that active defenses like the Trophy system will even the playing field, at least for a time.


Yeah. The tank doesn't belong on every battlefield. The Marines are smart to plan for that kind of warfare as tanks just won't be useful in any of those scenarios. Other armor, yes, but not tanks. They're too bulky and slow. The biggest threat they'll face is from offshore, and that's also where they'll need to project the most power.
We learned early on that tanks minus robust infantry support can be helpless. Especially in urban settings.
Combined arms warfare is still as relevant as ever. Good commanders know how to weight each combat arm to best suit the operational environment, though. The Russian commanders have been doing none of the above.
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deddog
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In reply to BlueSmoke • 11:52a, 3/21/22
AG
BlueSmoke said:

We learned early on that tanks minus robust infantry support can be helpless. Especially in urban settings.
The Russians should know that from Chechnya. I've heard audio of terrified Russian conscripts asking for help as the Chechens picked them off in Grozny, and terrified conscripts refusing to dismount.

Unfathomably, the conscripts are learning the same lessons again.
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JFABNRGR
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In reply to 74OA • 12:22p, 3/21/22
AG
74OA said:
BlueSmoke said:
ABATTBQ11 said:
chickencoupe16 said:
USA*** said:
ABATTBQ11 said:
cbr said:
Green2Maroon said:
Ukraine does have over 800 tanks. I hope they understand how best to utilize them in this. May be pretty important to keep the supply lines to Kyiv open, for one thing.
From what i am seeing, it appears that the era of the armored vehicle is over. They appear to be obsoleted by man portable missiles now. Hell close air aupport may not be far behind.

Id be advancing those darpa/heinlein armored infantry suits now and forget about tanks. Theyre only useful against civilians now it seems.


No. Armor will catch up. We'll likely see more scuff countermeasures to defeat ATGM's, like electronic countermeasures to defeat their seeker heads or lasers or something to actively shoot them down.


Right...the "gun v. armor" race will continue. And the Russians aren't/can't using them right. The tank is "dead" has been a mantra for decades that has been proven wrong again and again.


The Marines have abandoned tanks in favor of missiles. They also have hyper-mobility aims with their new doctrine focused on area denial and island hopping in the Pacific, so their decision is certainly not applicable across all battlefields, but it does make you think, especially combined with what we're seeing in Ukraine.

I do tend to agree that the tank is not dead. I think western tanks would fare better than the Russian ones are and that active defenses like the Trophy system will even the playing field, at least for a time.


Yeah. The tank doesn't belong on every battlefield. The Marines are smart to plan for that kind of warfare as tanks just won't be useful in any of those scenarios. Other armor, yes, but not tanks. They're too bulky and slow. The biggest threat they'll face is from offshore, and that's also where they'll need to project the most power.
We learned early on that tanks minus robust infantry support can be helpless. Especially in urban settings.
Combined arms warfare is still as relevant as ever. Good commanders know how to weight each combat arm to best suit the operational environment, though. The Russian commanders have been doing none of the above.
Unfortunately they are getting alot better. Especially with drones and this may turn momentum much into the favor of russia. I suspect Zelensky recognizes this with his rhetoric lately.

https://funker530.com/video/russian-mod-releases-footage-of-missile-strike-on-kyiv-shopping-mall/

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3rd and 2
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In reply to Not a Bot • 12:23p, 3/21/22
AG
Captain Positivity said:


They shoot it down?
.
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Jetpilot86
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In reply to 3rd and 2 • 12:28p, 3/21/22
AG
Not likely, the normal procedure is to send up/over a few fighters to point the plane in the proper direction home. Usually accompanied by a bunch of bluster by all sides on the emergency frequencies. Same game gets played by the Navies on a regular basis between Taiwan, Japan, South Korea and/vs China.
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docb
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In reply to 3rd and 2 • 12:43p, 3/21/22
AG
They should have shot it down if they didn't. No time to play games.
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Jetpilot86
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In reply to docb • 12:48p, 3/21/22
AG
docb said:
They should have shot it down if they didn't. No time to play games.
That is how you drag NATO into this for sure. Now if RU shoots or drops, then it's game on....
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GAC06
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In reply to Jetpilot86 • 12:51p, 3/21/22
AG
Turkey shot down a Russian Fencer a few years back and nothing came of it.
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