TxAgswin said:

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WestTexasAg said:

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Can you explain your reason for being a liberal? Not making fun, just curious what is appealing about being a liberal.

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No worries. My skin has to be pretty thick on this board.

Happy to answer your question...

The reason for my ideology revolves around dignity and fairness.

I believe in universal health care. I find it undignified that the wealthiest country in the world is so tied up in their own bull**** that we can't take care of those that can't take care of themselves. I am fortunate enough to not have to dread making financial decisions about my family's health. I got it. But most do not. The fire department doesn't send you an invoice after they put out the fire in your house. The police don't bill us when they protect us from bad guys. Those services are baked into our fundamental rights, and healthcare should be as well.

(Fundamental difference is that healthcare is directly affected by the special interests of big pharma, medical associations, and insurance companies who provide kickbacks to politicians who do not have the American best interest at heart. Ex: cancer treatment (big pharma would probably rather everyone with cancer be on a life long drug that generates revenue for them that find a solution which might knock it out one time.)

I believe our court system is broken. There are way too many people in jail. And there is definitely a race element to that. I won't dig into that because people get very defensive about it, but that's what I believe. Our criminal justice system is fundamentally flawed and, in my opinion, conservatives are to blame for that.

(If you look at the murder statistics in Chicago over the last year, a place where they have the strictest gun laws, 96% of victims are black. The DA for Chicago is a Soros plant, whose job it is to not prosecute those committing the crimes. Only 23% of crimes the police handed over were moved forward by the prosecutor. That is why criminals go back onto the streets and commit more crime. I will add that there is a Soros push across the country with other prosecutors to get rid of cash bail system and basically just release folks. This is obvious with the latest smash and grabs in NY, where pretty much all of the suspects were not able to be held.)

I believe that education is the answer. It always has been. We should put every spare nickel we have into education.

(Education is an answer, but getting away from the nuclear family unit in many of the demographics has caused systemic shortfalls when it comes to upbringing. Historically, churches provided help to those in need, and the old adage a family that prays together stays together has been replaced by we are with the government and we will provide what you need. It's easier...)

John Adams said, "Laws for the liberal education of the youth, especially of the lower class of the people, are so extremely wise and useful, that, to a humane and generous mind, no expense for this purpose would be thought extravagant."

(Democrats have systemically targeted black areas since the 60s across the country to place abortion clinics in primarily black areas while managing to convince the population that they are there to protect your right to choose. This is a fallacy that makes it easier for single women to just abort an inconvenience rather than deliver. An entire generation of potential has been wiped away by "convenience", which is the real tragedy.

I support our troops (of course), but I think the Pentagon gets waaaay too much money.

(My thoughts have changed on this, but big money defense has had their hands in creating war for profit. I somewhat feel that the last 30 years has been a big pyramid scheme for many to get rich at the expense of American lives. I think Trump was probably working to get us out of many of the regions we had troops, but the way Biden left Afghanistan is absolutely a disgrace. It caused the deaths of many people who had worked with American troops, as well as American citizens, and IMO was unforgivable.)

I am a "liberal" (or whatever) because I think we should prioritize differently.

(Conservatives do not necessarily disagree with all liberal principles. They too want to be compassionate, but believe that the government should not be what the church and people should be. We have a duty to love our neighbors as ourselves, and if you are truly doing that, then you are ok in my book. You're just a liberal. =P)

That's just me though.

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tysker said:

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If healthcare is a right then I'm going to start smoking again. And smoke wherever the **** I want to.

If healthcare is a right then why all the push for smoking bans, soft drink and transfat bans, and healthy diet for our kids?

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Anything that requires the labor/money of others to provide is not a right.

CCP Joe Veggie said:

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tysker said:

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If healthcare is a right then I'm going to start smoking again. And smoke wherever the **** I want to.

If healthcare is a right then why all the push for smoking bans, soft drink and transfat bans, and healthy diet for our kids?

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Anything that requires the labor/money of others to provide is not a right.

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weird how the left cannot understand this.

Government is not competent to run 20-30% of the economy, and do it fairly and apolitically. It simply isn't. People simply aren't adequately careful and prudent when spending other peoples' money and consuming other peoples' resources. Imagine the corruption and waste within a healthcare bureaucracy that would be ten times larger than the US military?

The VA and Medicare are already horrendously incompetent and inefficient in many respects.

ChemEAg08 said:

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TheMasterplan said:

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Healthcare is a right but they would deny healthcare to those that are unvaccinated if they had a choice.

That means it's not a right but a control mechanism.

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Cannot star this enough. Even if you were ever foolish enough to buy the argument, Covid has tipped the hand.

RoadkillBBQ said:

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FriscoKid said:

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The Omicron variant is proving 60 more times more infectious and deadly than previous variants. It has already killed more people than World War I and II combined. Please stay safe.

— Very Concerned COVID Parent (@ZeroCOVID4Ever) December 3, 2021

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Whoever is responsible for that needs to be publicly executed.

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i bet you were a blast at parties

There is a difference between healthcare being a right and healthcare paid for by the government.

You have the right to take care of yourself (or not) and treat your cuts, bruises, fever, and seek (but not compel) medical help. You have the right to exercise, but cannot force a gym to let you use their equipment or facilities.

If the government is paying for your healthcare, it can deny you access to certain treatments and preventative methods. It can require certain behaviors to be eligible for treatments. It can make it illegal to self pay your own healthcare.

You already have the right to all the healthcare you can afford, just like you have the right to all the guns you can afford.

I believe true conservatives and original liberals have WAY more in common today than the kook radical leftists in America. One example of that is how the intelligentsia in Europe is beginning to reject the radical American left. Watch how RFK Jr talks about the radical leftists and the COVID nazis. True liberals are disgusted by the puritanical radical leftists of today.who want nothing but control. A literal bloodlust for control. Unfortunately they hate the nation they want to control. That is an unsustainable combination. There is no compromise with these people. Liberty is strong, and will win.

TxAgswin said:

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FriscoKid said:

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If healthcare is a fundamental human right then doctors, nurses, scientists, etc should be forced to work for free. Healthcare should be elevated to the same level as freedom of speech. If healthcare is a basic human right then it should be free.

But it's not. Someone has to go to school at a great cost to themselves and then work their ass off daily to treat sick or injured people.

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Seriously?

Do you know what we are talking about?

What I am suggesting is that we place healthcare in the federal budget and fund it.

Do police officers work for free? Does the military work for free? Do public school teachers work for free?

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Have you seen how much public service (police and fire) and public school teachers are paid???? There is a reason that some in those profession are not top notch, and why the good ones don't stay around long enough.

You want your health care works to have that same pay scale? Sure you'll have some stick around because they feel called to help the sick. But you offer a public scale salary to a once corporate paid doctor and I guarantee that most will leave and find something in a private sector or research.

taxpreparer said:

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There is a difference between healthcare being a right and healthcare paid for by the government.

You have the right to take care of yourself (or not) and treat your cuts, bruises, fever, and seek (but not compel) medical help. You have the right to exercise, but cannot force a gym to let you use their equipment or facilities.

If the government is paying for your healthcare, it can deny you access to certain treatments and preventative methods. It can require certain behaviors to be eligible for treatments. It can make it illegal to self pay your own healthcare.

You already have the right to all the healthcare you can afford, just like you have the right to all the guns you can afford.

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Yeah but framing it that way takes the appeal to emotion out of the trap. That's why leftists advocate for it.

TxAgswin said:

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WestTexasAg said:

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Can you explain your reason for being a liberal? Not making fun, just curious what is appealing about being a liberal.

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No worries. My skin has to be pretty thick on this board.

Happy to answer your question...

The reason for my ideology revolves around dignity and fairness.

I believe in universal health care. I find it undignified that the wealthiest country in the world is so tied up in their own bull**** that we can't take care of those that can't take care of themselves. I am fortunate enough to not have to dread making financial decisions about my family's health. I got it. But most do not. The fire department doesn't send you an invoice after they put out the fire in your house. The police don't bill us when they protect us from bad guys. Those services are baked into our fundamental rights, and healthcare should be as well.

I believe our court system is broken. There are way too many people in jail. And there is definitely a race element to that. I won't dig into that because people get very defensive about it, but that's what I believe. Our criminal justice system is fundamentally flawed and, in my opinion, conservatives are to blame for that.

I believe that education is the answer. It always has been. We should put every spare nickel we have into education.

John Adams said, "Laws for the liberal education of the youth, especially of the lower class of the people, are so extremely wise and useful, that, to a humane and generous mind, no expense for this purpose would be thought extravagant."

I support our troops (of course), but I think the Pentagon gets waaaay too much money.

I am a "liberal" (or whatever) because I think we should prioritize differently.

That's just me though.

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do you know why police and firefighters get paid so little and doctors dont? also, do you know why our medicine is far more advanced than every country in the world? if you create universal healthcare you wont have the likes of Johns Hopkins, Mayo, MD Anderson funded by private institutions.

TxAgswin said:

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WestTexasAg said:

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Can you explain your reason for being a liberal? Not making fun, just curious what is appealing about being a liberal.

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No worries. My skin has to be pretty thick on this board.

Happy to answer your question...

The reason for my ideology revolves around dignity and fairness.

I believe in universal health care. I find it undignified that the wealthiest country in the world is so tied up in their own bull**** that we can't take care of those that can't take care of themselves. I am fortunate enough to not have to dread making financial decisions about my family's health. I got it. But most do not. The fire department doesn't send you an invoice after they put out the fire in your house. The police don't bill us when they protect us from bad guys. Those services are baked into our fundamental rights, and healthcare should be as well.

I believe our court system is broken. There are way too many people in jail. And there is definitely a race element to that. I won't dig into that because people get very defensive about it, but that's what I believe. Our criminal justice system is fundamentally flawed and, in my opinion, conservatives are to blame for that.

I believe that education is the answer. It always has been. We should put every spare nickel we have into education.

John Adams said, "Laws for the liberal education of the youth, especially of the lower class of the people, are so extremely wise and useful, that, to a humane and generous mind, no expense for this purpose would be thought extravagant."

I support our troops (of course), but I think the Pentagon gets waaaay too much money.

I am a "liberal" (or whatever) because I think we should prioritize differently.

That's just me though.

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Once you start taking care of those that "can't take care of themselves", you will find there are many more that won't take care of themselves. Pretty soon you run out of money from the productive members of society.

Lived in Newfoundland for five years and the health care system was absolute dog sh&*. Get very exhausted hearing about how socialized health care is the answer. Worked with a lady that needed a hip replacement, struggling to get around, and had to wait over 2 years before they would look at her.

Love how liberals don't understand where the money comes from for fire and police protection. I pay a fu** ton in property taxes alone and don't feel like I get any ROI. Just the other night, some "who done it" decides to send bullets in the air with several striking a house in the neighborhood. Cops never showed up to investigate. The neighborhood group is wanting everyone to start paying $400-500 a year so we can hire night patrol in our area. That's just a slap in the face when I already pay, like a said before, a fu** ton in property taxes.

However, I'm sure the money is being well spent so a sex offender can read books to children at the local library

CCP Joe Veggie said:

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tysker said:

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If healthcare is a right then I'm going to start smoking again. And smoke wherever the **** I want to.

If healthcare is a right then why all the push for smoking bans, soft drink and transfat bans, and healthy diet for our kids?

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Anything that requires the labor/money of others to provide is not a right.

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Positive vs negative rights. We constructed the right to an attorney as part of our legal system as an extension of due process.

I don't agree that healthcare is a right but it could be if there was a logical and legal extension. I think 'free' vaccines may fall in that category; if the government is going to restrict access to services based on healthcare standards (eg not being vaxxed), the govt has a duty to provide for the basic means and opportunities for citizens to receive access to those services (get vaxxed). But I think we already see the slippery slope of positive rights

Proclaiming health care a "right" has enormous issues. If it's a right, it has to be provided, full stop. But, at it's core, health care is simply other people's labor. You can't have a right premised on the work of others.

For example, here's a thought experiment I would like answered. Pull up a map of the country. Find the most isolated, desolate place you can. If health care is a right, the government must provide it to any people there without gaps. What is your plan to ensure that isolated, desolate location always has a doctor available? Now, replicate that question a few hundred thousand times.

TheMasterplan said:

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Healthcare is a right but they would deny healthcare to those that are unvaccinated if they had a choice.

That means it's not a right but a control mechanism.

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I wish I had more stars to give this post. Personally, I don't believe healthcare is a "right", but as a Christian I believe we are called to help those in need. For that reason, I can support social programs. Although I think these could be better handled outside of the federal government, many churches and other charitable organizations are falling way too short in this mission.

That said, my concern with the folks who want to have federal control (not support) of the healthcare system is perfectly articulated by TheMasterplan.

I disagree. Healthcare is a right, just not an enumerated. The government does not supply our rights, it is prohibited from denying you access. Your second amendment rights do not require the government to furnish you a gun.

UHC is not the same as a right to healthcare.

There's not a hospital in this country that can legally turn someone away needing care.

Fire and police workers work for the city, county or state. Most hospitals are privately owned and the workers are all paid based on demand for their expertise.

What do you do for a living?

Also, if healthcare is a "RIGHT" and you feel like my tax money should pay for it, then I demand people exercise, and have a strict diet. If not, you pay for your own.

I like much of your list.

I think education is the solution as well but probably not in the way you think. I think education and America's "land of opportunity" took a nose dive when we introduced self esteem curriculum into school. We went from results based to feelings based in a hurry.

If you want to solve crime, poverty, health issues, etc. then the best way to do that is to get a job. Schools should be in place for one reason only - to prepare young people to contribute in a positive way to society. We HAVE to ramp up trade skills training. We also have to allow schools to expel and dismiss kids if they are a distraction to other kids. Put the responsibility back on the family to get their kid to school and ready to learn.

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The fire department doesn't send you an invoice after they put out the fire in your house. The police don't bill us when they protect us from bad guys. Those services are baked into our fundamental rights, and healthcare should be as well.

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You actually think we have a fundamental right to have the fire department come put our fires out? Seriously? And to have a police force? Those are things we pay taxes for, and in lots of small towns they have volunteer fire departments that are supported by an annual fundraiser and donations. They are not fundamental rights.

aggiebrad94 said:

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I like much of your list.

I think education is the solution as well but probably not in the way you think. I think education and America's "land of opportunity" took a nose dive when we introduced self esteem curriculum into school. We went from results based to feelings based in a hurry.

If you want to solve crime, poverty, health issues, etc. then the best way to do that is to get a job. Schools should be in place for one reason only - to prepare young people to contribute in a positive way to society. We HAVE to ramp up trade skills training. We also have to allow schools to expel and dismiss kids if they are a distraction to other kids. Put the responsibility back on the family to get their kid to school and ready to learn.

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Public education is ****ed up because the government is involved. The same will happen when (if) they take over heath care.

Rex Racer said:

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Quote:

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The fire department doesn't send you an invoice after they put out the fire in your house. The police don't bill us when they protect us from bad guys. Those services are baked into our fundamental rights, and healthcare should be as well.

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You actually think we have a fundamental right to have the fire department come put our fires out? Seriously? And to have a police force? Those are things we pay taxes for, and in lots of small towns they have volunteer fire departments that are supported by an annual fundraiser and donations. They are not fundamental rights.

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Oh now, hold on….those are facts. Liberal don't like facts.

If healthcare is a "fundamental right" given to us by our government, where does it stop? Do they have rights over your choices also? No drinking, smoking or fast food? No snacks with a calorie count above xxx? No participating in (fill in the blank) activity that may cause harm? On second thought, maybe they should get control of some of the crap ingredients in our food supply. That may help a bit.

So props to TxAgsWin for an answer, unfortunately voting D doesn't currently support a single thing important to them.

We have a healthcare issue, govt control is not the solution. You mentioned education and that is great place to start. The US has one of the highest $/student rates globally and not much to show for it.

There is a great chart that shows our spend per student rate and international testing ranking from before and after Education became a cabinet level position. Lots more money, no results. Govt involvement is a great way to line the pockets of administration and pay an ever increasing amount of people making sure Govt mandates are met. Baltimore ISD is a great example of the end game.

Govt controlled healthcare terrifies me. Go find a lost piece of mail, deal with the IRS, or have the State Comptrollers office accidentally create a new business entity for taxes and screw everything up. Now pretend that same capability is applied to a surgery to save your loved one's life.

At the end of the day I believe most people want the same thing, a safe, just society with equal opportunity (not outcome). How we get there seems to be the big debate.

95% of Americans who don't have health insurance have made a choice not to have health insurance.

Got a cell phone?
Got cable?
Eat at McDonalds?
Buy brand name clothing?
Drink beer?
Smoke Cigarettes?
Incur obtrusive debt?

Those are all things that Americans prioritize over health insurance and self care every day. Any discussion that doesn't include that fact is simply subsidizing bad behavior.

This is why people, outside of urban centers, trend conservative as they age. Why? Because somewhere during your life, you begin to prioritize self care. We all do. We have to. To either remain healthy, to become financially independent, to raise a family, etc. While doing that, we watch peers of ours not do that, and we watch what happens when those bad decisions they have made get subsidized. We watch it in real time, and we watch how utterly destructive it is.

When the government then puts the bill in front of us, for no other reason than because our success deems us worthy to pay, we reach our zenith of conservatism.

The OP is not there yet, but he will be.

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I believe in universal health care. I find it undignified that the wealthiest country in the world is so tied up in their own bull**** that we can't take care of those that can't take care of themselves. I am fortunate enough to not have to dread making financial decisions about my family's health. I got it. But most do not.

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Liberals like to say stuff like this, but I haven't found one yet than can provide an example of where anyone they know was denied medical care or necessary health care because they couldn't afford it. How about you OP? Do you know anybody that had to chose getting medical care or putting food on the table?

Got a question for you, OP. Any town, city, county, or state in this country could provide universal health care and raise taxes accordingly to fund it, just like they raise money for police and firemen. So why doesn't it happen?

Bronco6G said:

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Quote:

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I believe in universal health care. I find it undignified that the wealthiest country in the world is so tied up in their own bull**** that we can't take care of those that can't take care of themselves. I am fortunate enough to not have to dread making financial decisions about my family's health. I got it. But most do not.

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Liberals like to say stuff like this, but I haven't found one yet than can provide an example of where anyone they know was denied medical care or necessary health care because they couldn't afford it. How about you OP? Do you know anybody that had to chose getting medical care or putting food on the table?

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I've been a nurse for a while and the majority of my patients are Medicaid.

taxpreparer said:

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I disagree. Healthcare is a right, just not an enumerated. The government does not supply our rights, it is prohibited from denying you access. Your second amendment rights do not require the government to furnish you a gun.

UHC is not the same as a right to healthcare.

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Then I guess I don't get the point. Anyone is free to purchase health care right now.

Are you simply saying the government cannot deny or curtail your ability to procure health care that you want to purchase?

JCA1 said:

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taxpreparer said:

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I disagree. Healthcare is a right, just not an enumerated. The government does not supply our rights, it is prohibited from denying you access. Your second amendment rights do not require the government to furnish you a gun.

UHC is not the same as a right to healthcare.

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Then I guess I don't get the point. Anyone is free to purchase health care right now.

Are you simply saying the government cannot deny or curtail your ability to procure health care that you want to purchase?

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He's saying that healthcare is already a right in this country, since no doctor can deny providing life-saving treatment. UHC is not the same thing as a right to healthcare.

Curious if the OP would provide their age and profession?

TxAgswin said:

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Am I the only liberal that posts on this board?

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You are:

Champ Bailey said:

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JCA1 said:

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taxpreparer said:

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I disagree. Healthcare is a right, just not an enumerated. The government does not supply our rights, it is prohibited from denying you access. Your second amendment rights do not require the government to furnish you a gun.

UHC is not the same as a right to healthcare.

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Then I guess I don't get the point. Anyone is free to purchase health care right now.

Are you simply saying the government cannot deny or curtail your ability to procure health care that you want to purchase?

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He's saying that healthcare is already a right in this country, since no doctor can deny providing life-saving treatment. UHC is not the same thing as a right to healthcare.

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Almost. I am saying you have as much access to healthcare as you do guns, speech, religion, etc.

Can you be denied access to a right? Sure, I do not have to sell you a gun, buy you medicine, or allow you to join my church. I cannot prevent you from buying a gun or medicine from someone else, or joining a different church. A right does not mean you can compel someone else to do your bidding.

Also, healthcare is not the same as health insurance.

TxAgswin said:

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Am I the only liberal that posts on this board?

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Are you proud of this fact?