Lubbock Shooting

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Gator92
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One could ask that since Chad was bigger than Kyle, why did Chad seem to merely throw Kyle aside and not take the gun from him?

Did Chad fear possessing the gun b/c he was a felon? Couldn't Chad have disarmed and detained Kyle and thrown the gun in the front yard?

Chad's actions suggest he was attempting to enter the residence.
DannyDuberstein
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Enter the residence? I don't see that at all.
VaultingChemist
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Quote:

Thanks, I'll keep an eye out. Hopefully there are no criminal indictments and Kyle takes his lumps in civil court for unnecessarily escalating the situation.

I don't think people fully realize that a tiny part of all our precious gun and self defense rights would be on trial, not just this random ahole.
I could easily see this case leading to changes in family law concerning child custody exchanges, especially where there are firearms present at the place of the exchange. I can see this case causing more fathers to get their CCL if they have any reason to believe their ex has an emotionally unstable boyfriend/spouse.
BlueTaze
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What circumstances or evidence justify Chad saying he is going to take the gun, then physically grabbing it and trying to pull it away from Kyle?

I suppose Chad's son could be inside hog tied or something. But so far there doesn't appear to be anything to the very high bar set for trying to take someone's gun away....especially at their habitation after they repeatedly told you the kid isn't there and to leave.

I get the parental emotions here, but this is about as clear cut a case of unnecessary escalation and justified self defense as you will ever see.

The problem everyone has here is Kyle introducing a gun into a domestic dispute that could easily be handled without the gun. And because of that, they want to throw out Kyle's right to self defense. That's disturbing to me. Just like all those who wanted to convict Rittenhouse because he shouldn't have been running around on streets with a long rifle.
aggiehawg
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Quote:

Chad's actions suggest he was attempting to enter the residence.
Never saw that at all. Nor was Chad advancing on Carruth after Read had flung him away. Carruth fired anyway.

But now there is contradictory reporting of who exactly owned and/or resided at that home? In a story yesterday in the Lubbock paper there is this:

Quote:

Chad Read, a 54-year-old Lubbock father, was fatally shot in South Lubbock outside his ex-wife's house after a confrontation between the former couple and the woman's boyfriend on Nov. 5.

Court records identified William Kyle Carruth as the man suspected of shooting Read. The affidavit was signed by Judge Anne-Marie Carruth, who filed the document in a counter suit in her divorce from Kyle Carruth.
Was she residing there with Carruth? Or was he living with her? In any event, it was reasonable for Read to expect his child to be there, apparently.

Some more:
Quote:

The affidavit, filed on Nov. 8, was filed as part of Anne-Marie Carruth's counter suit in the couple's divorce. According to the counter petition, Anne-Marie, a district court judge, was asking the court to exclude her ex-husband from their 9th Street home.
Quote:

She stated in the affidavit that she hadn't spoken to Kyle about the shooting but said she was "very concerned about his mental state."

Lubbock County District Attorney Sunshine Stanek filed a motion with the AG's office recusing her office from the case, stating the "suspect is related to a Lubbock County elected official, who is also a potential witness."
Now another part that is less than clear.

Quote:

Through an attorney, Jennifer Read filed a petition alleging that Christina Read has endangered the well-being of two children by allowing them to be in the presence of Kyle Carruth.

"The children are aware that Kyle Carruth shot and killed their father in front of their mother, step-brother, and myself," Read's affidavit states. "Christina's decision to allow either of these children to be in Kyle Carruth's presence has caused, and continues to cause, significant impairment of their emotional well-being. The oldest child has expressed to me that he blames his mother for the shooting, and that he will run away from home if he sees Kyle there again."
Is the "home" referred to there the same "home" where Read was shot and killed? Or is there another home?

Link

Confused.
eric76
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aggiehawg said:

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When Texas Says It's Not Self-Defense

There are some situations in which the use of force is never justified in a court of law. When someone is only verbally provoked no sign of a weapon, no physical contact or threat of physical contact the use of force is always considered assault.

Also, when the actor brandishes (or even simply possesses) any kind of weapon while discussing differences between him- or herself and the other party, it is never justified as self-defense.
Quote:

Essentially, Texas Penal Code describes the use of equal (up to and including deadly) force as legal when you reasonably believe someone is attempting to use force in order to unlawfully enter your "habitation."

However, there is a highly limited definition of what qualifies as a person's habitation. It is the "structure or vehicle adapted for the overnight accommodation of persons; and includes each separately secured or occupied portion of the structure or vehicle; and each structure appurtenant to or connected with the structure or vehicle."

For example, Texas would not consider a detached garage a part of your "castle," but if someone unlawfully and forcefully enters your attached front porch, you are well within your rights to "stand your ground."

Quote:

Here are the three primary conditions in which Texas allows you to use force against another person:
[ol]
  • Someone was unlawfully and forcefully entering or attempting to enter your home, vehicle, or place of business or employment
  • Someone was unlawfully and forcefully removing or attempting to remove you from your home, vehicle, or place of business or employment
  • Someone was committing or attempting to commit aggravated kidnapping, murder, sexual assault, aggravated sexual assault, robbery, or aggravated robbery
  • [/ol]


    Those three provisions will factor into this case, IMO. I can see a grand jury indicting or no billing under one of those three. Was Carruth "brandishing" the gun? Well he fired it at Read's feet and lower legs. Does the grand jury find that compelling?

    Or is Read's using the gun to slingshot Carruth away from him and in the process "unlawfully and forcefully" removed Carruth from his front porch is more compelling to them?

    And was Read's stepping onto the porch when Carruth came out with gun an "unlawful and forceful entry"? Does that become the focus?


    From the video, it didn't look to me like he was making any attempt to enter the house. He didn't even approach over to where he was killed until the shooter brought out the firearm and engaged him. I didn't hear him tell the shooter or anyone else to get out of his way and let him in.
    neAGle96
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    Gator92 said:

    One could ask that since Chad was bigger than Kyle, why did Chad seem to merely throw Kyle aside and not take the gun from him?

    Did Chad fear possessing the gun b/c he was a felon? Couldn't Chad have disarmed and detained Kyle and thrown the gun in the front yard?

    Chad's actions suggest he was attempting to enter the residence.


    Chad became extremely agitated when Kyle returned with the gun. He threatened Kyle, they approached, the shot towards Chad's feet went off, and Chad grabbed the rifle and flung Chad off the porch. IMO, at that moment it looks like Chad calmed down and tried to deescalate, but by that point his fate was sealed.

    If Chad wanted to continue the confrontation, he would have followed Chad off the porch when he flung him and pounced on Chad. Instead, he flung Chad off the porch, stood up and put his hands by his side.
    Marcus Brutus
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    Evidently you are allowed to be on a person's property and physically disarm them if you are there to pick up your kid but they tell you to leave, per some of the posts in here.
    Gator92
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    DannyDuberstein said:

    Enter the residence? I don't see that at all.
    Plenty of motive to look for his son.

    From the video you could argue Chad simply throws Kyle aside instead of holding on and forcing a struggle for the gun. Chad ends up face down.

    Martin Cash
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    BlueTaze said:

    What circumstances or evidence justify Chad saying he is going to take the gun, then physically grabbing it and trying to pull it away from Kyle?

    I suppose Chad's son could be inside hog tied or something. But so far there doesn't appear to be anything to the very high bar set for trying to take someone's gun away....especially at their habitation after they repeatedly told you the kid isn't there and to leave.

    I get the parental emotions here, but this is about as clear cut a case of unnecessary escalation and justified self defense as you will ever see.

    The problem everyone has here is Kyle introducing a gun into a domestic dispute that could easily be handled without the gun. And because of that, they want to throw out Kyle's right to self defense. That's disturbing to me. Just like all those who wanted to convict Rittenhouse because he shouldn't have been running around on streets with a long rifle.
    This was nothing like Rittenhouse. He took a rifle into a riot with armed criminals. Not at all the same as here. Having a discussion about child visitation doesn't warrant getting a gun in any universe.
    The heart of the wise inclines to the right, but the heart of the fool to the left. Ecclesiastes 10:2
    Ol_Ag_02
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    I don't feel sorry for anyone in this situation except the kids, maybe the judge.
    eric76
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    If someone aggressively pulls a firearm on you, I think that one temptation is likely to be to try to take the firearm away before he shoots you with it.

    It is quite a jump to conclude that you are trying to take it away to use on them. Sure, in some cases that would be true, but not in a great many of them. For example, when the police disarm you, they aren't taking your firearm away so that they can use it to shoot you -- they are taking it away so you won't shoot them.

    There was a case north of Houston a few yeas ago in which a neighborhood hothead, bully, and kook, Raul Rodriguez, stood in the street in front of a neighbor's house a couple doors down from his house and was both armed and filming the encounter. The party at the neighbor's house was a birthday party for the neighbor's kid that had carried on into the evening with several friends still there talking, listening to music, and having a drink.

    In the video, Raul Rodriguez went on and on about how he feared for his life and would have to protect himself from the neighbors. Later, someone concerned about his carrying the firearm made an effort (possibly a playful effort) to disarm him. When he tried, Rodriguez shot and killed the neighbor who was throwing the party for his kid. There is nothing in the Rodriguez case to make me think that the person who tried to disarm him had any intention of doing so to use it on Rodriguez.

    In the Rittenhouse case, I have no doubt that the crazy idiot chasing Rittenhouse would have shot people with Rittenhouse's firearm if he had managed to get it away. From the video in this case, it didn't strike me as if the victim was trying to take the firearm away from the shooter so that he could use it to kill the shooter or anyone else.
    cevans_40
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    Agthatbuilds said:

    SpreadsheetAg said:

    Not so sure; if you're in your home and a trespasser is on your property- why couldn't you get your gun?


    I think you can.

    But, in the context of the situation, he didn't need to. It elevated the engagement from argument to life or death. If he could go inside, he could have locked the door and called the police. The situation would have ended right there or, if the Dad persisted, then perhaps it would have been a little more clearly defined situation.

    That's the problem I have with assigning self defense to this case. It didn't need to get that far and the shooter helped caused an escalation.

    I understand the technicalities of the law might let him skate. I just have a tough time agreeing he didn't take actions which led to him killing the other guy

    By evidence of this thread, this isn't a clear cut case, either way. I think convincing a jury either way will be difficult.

    This is so scary that people feel this way. The government will be rounding up all the scary guns soon enough at this rate.
    aggiehawg
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    Quote:

    The problem everyone has here is Kyle introducing a gun into a domestic dispute that could easily be handled without the gun. And because of that, they want to throw out Kyle's right to self defense. That's disturbing to me. Just like all those who wanted to convict Rittenhouse because he shouldn't have been running around on streets with a long rifle.
    No, the question here is did Carruth unnecessarily escalate or provoke the situation to such a degree that his self defense defense is diminished under the law and if so, how diminished? That is more of a fact question.

    Was Carruth brandishing the gun? Fact question for the jury.

    Was Read's physical contact, chest bump, of sufficient force to cause Carruth to fear for his life or imminent bodily harm? Fact question.

    Were Read's words in conjunction with that contact sufficient to cause Carruth to fear for his life or imminent bodily harm? Fact question.

    Were Carruth's words and manner during the confrontation consistent with someone in reasonable fear for his life and imminent serious bodily harm? Fact question.

    And here is where it gets very gnarly, Carruth firing the gun towards Read's feet at very close range and with Read's ex standing in the line of fire behind Read? Say the confrontation had stopped there and no other shots were fired that day. Would Carutth's actions in firing the gun constitute reckless endangerment in the discharge of a weapon? That would have been a charging decision by the prosecutor but also something the family court judge would take into consideration in a future court hearing and such would be expected to be bad for Christina Read.

    So does Read now have the right to self defense after he's just been shot at by Carruth? IOW, has Carruth lost his claim of self defense by firing the gun in the direction of Read's body? Fact question

    If the answer to that is yes, Read now has the right to defend himself from an attack with deadly force, did his swinging Carruth away, using the gun but then releasing the gun a reasonable use of force to that deadly force attack of Carruth's Fact question.

    If the answer to that question is yes, then Carruth does not have a perfect self defense defense to thereafter fire the gun and killing Read.

    That's how complicated this case is. It goes frame by frame of who is the aggressor, who uses force, how much force, and was such use reasonable? It can be seen in a jury's eyes that it goes back and forth between the two. That will be the argument, anyway.

    FTR: I am not taking a position one way or another, just pointing out the fact questions in this very tough case.
    Martin Cash
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    cevans_40 said:

    Agthatbuilds said:

    SpreadsheetAg said:

    Not so sure; if you're in your home and a trespasser is on your property- why couldn't you get your gun?


    I think you can.

    But, in the context of the situation, he didn't need to. It elevated the engagement from argument to life or death. If he could go inside, he could have locked the door and called the police. The situation would have ended right there or, if the Dad persisted, then perhaps it would have been a little more clearly defined situation.

    That's the problem I have with assigning self defense to this case. It didn't need to get that far and the shooter helped caused an escalation.

    I understand the technicalities of the law might let him skate. I just have a tough time agreeing he didn't take actions which led to him killing the other guy

    By evidence of this thread, this isn't a clear cut case, either way. I think convincing a jury either way will be difficult.

    This is so scary that people feel this way. The government will be rounding up all the scary guns soon enough at this rate.
    What's so scary? Just because you CAN do something, doesn't mean you SHOULD.
    The heart of the wise inclines to the right, but the heart of the fool to the left. Ecclesiastes 10:2
    Who?mikejones!
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    Stfu dude.

    I'm as pro 2nd amendment as anyone else on f16.

    I also don't believe in murder, which is how I feel about this particular case, at this moment, from the videos I've watched.

    Further, if you think this incident is good for gun rights, you should reevaluate your motivations.
    eric76
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    cevans_40 said:

    Agthatbuilds said:

    SpreadsheetAg said:

    Not so sure; if you're in your home and a trespasser is on your property- why couldn't you get your gun?


    I think you can.

    But, in the context of the situation, he didn't need to. It elevated the engagement from argument to life or death. If he could go inside, he could have locked the door and called the police. The situation would have ended right there or, if the Dad persisted, then perhaps it would have been a little more clearly defined situation.

    That's the problem I have with assigning self defense to this case. It didn't need to get that far and the shooter helped caused an escalation.

    I understand the technicalities of the law might let him skate. I just have a tough time agreeing he didn't take actions which led to him killing the other guy

    By evidence of this thread, this isn't a clear cut case, either way. I think convincing a jury either way will be difficult.

    This is so scary that people feel this way. The government will be rounding up all the scary guns soon enough at this rate.
    Every time that some kook uses a firearm to kill someone, it is one more step toward confiscation of weapons.
    cevans_40
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    Agthatbuilds said:

    Stfu dude.

    I'm as pro 2nd amendment as anyone else on f16.

    I also don't believe in murder, which is how I feel about this particular case, at this moment, from the videos I've watched.

    Further, if you think this incident is good for gun rights, you should reevaluate your motivations.

    I don't think it's good for gun rights at all and I have never stated such. But if you feel that the simple act of acquiring a firearm by a property owner is an unlawful escalation of an altercation with a trespasser, that's frightening.

    And now you can STFU.
    Marcus Brutus
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    Agthatbuilds said:

    Stfu dude.

    I'm as pro 2nd amendment as anyone else on f16.

    I also don't believe in murder, which is how I feel about this particular case, at this moment, from the videos I've watched.


    You said he didn't need to, as if that has anything to do with whether he's guilty of murder. He did it and it was perfectly legal to do so. Period. When that act, a legal act with a gun, comes into play as far as determining guilt or innocence, we are headed down a very dangerous path.
    Gator92
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    neAGle96 said:

    Gator92 said:

    One could ask that since Chad was bigger than Kyle, why did Chad seem to merely throw Kyle aside and not take the gun from him?

    Did Chad fear possessing the gun b/c he was a felon? Couldn't Chad have disarmed and detained Kyle and thrown the gun in the front yard?

    Chad's actions suggest he was attempting to enter the residence.


    Chad became extremely agitated when Kyle returned with the gun. He threatened Kyle, they approached, the shot towards Chad's feet went off, and Chad grabbed the rifle and flung Chad off the porch. IMO, at that moment it looks like Chad calmed down and tried to deescalate, but by that point his fate was sealed.

    If Chad wanted to continue the confrontation, he would have followed Chad off the porch when he flung him and pounced on Chad. Instead, he flung Chad off the porch, stood up and put his hands by his side.
    Also plausible that Chad meant to retreat after tossing Kyle aside and his only pathway was toward the house.

    The fact that Chad ended up face down like so many things in this case, cuts both ways.

    If only Chad's wife had recorded in landscape.

    Thing is, Chad ain't around to tell us what he was thinking. Kyle is, but doesn't have to.


    DannyDuberstein
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    Kyle was dumb enough to tell us that ending the trespass is what was on his mind
    Who?mikejones!
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    You denying that it could be escalation, especially in context of the situation, is naive.


    cevans_40
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    Agthatbuilds said:

    You denying that it could be escalation, especially in context of the situation, is naive.




    What the law on escalation? I am unclear.
    aggiehawg
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    DannyDuberstein said:

    Kyle was dumb enough to tell us that ending the trespass is what was on his mind
    That was..uhmm..."unhelpful" for his defense.
    cevans_40
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    aggiehawg said:

    DannyDuberstein said:

    Kyle was dumb enough to tell us that ending the trespass is what was on his mind
    That was..uhmm..."unhelpful" for his defense.

    Yeah. If he shot him solely to remove him from his property, that's not good.
    Martin Cash
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    cevans_40 said:



    . But if you feel that the simple act of acquiring a firearm by a property owner is an unlawful escalation of an altercation with a trespasser, that's frightening.

    And now you can STFU.
    How can any intelligent person say it's NOT an escalation? Of course it is.
    The heart of the wise inclines to the right, but the heart of the fool to the left. Ecclesiastes 10:2
    DannyDuberstein
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    It was certainly an escalation in principle, even if the law protects the unnecessary idiocy this decision involved. Safely retreating to arm himself but then returning, then telling us his motive which is something you cannot use deadly force for are all very problematic though.

    Could very well make the case that he went to arm himself to end a trespass and then did so. And thanks Kyle for telling us as much. And this so called trespass was instigated by people withholding a kid that should have been turned over per a custody agreement and the dad actually had the right to be there. Adds up to a very unflattering look to paint for the right jury
    aggiehawg
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    Martin Cash said:

    cevans_40 said:



    . But if you feel that the simple act of acquiring a firearm by a property owner is an unlawful escalation of an altercation with a trespasser, that's frightening.

    And now you can STFU.
    How can any intelligent person say it's NOT an escalation? Of course it is.
    Any gun use in a domestic dispute is not taken lightly by the law. Not in Texas.
    cevans_40
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    Martin Cash said:

    cevans_40 said:



    . But if you feel that the simple act of acquiring a firearm by a property owner is an unlawful escalation of an altercation with a trespasser, that's frightening.

    And now you can STFU.
    How can any intelligent person say it's NOT an escalation? Of course it is.

    You left out a key word. Reread and try again.
    DannyDuberstein
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    The problem with the "trespasser" angle is that I don't think a jury is going to be sympathetic to the fact this so called trespass was actually set up by this couple not delivering a kid to his dad in accordance with a custody agreement. It was a situation created entirely by their own doing
    cevans_40
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    DannyDuberstein said:

    The problem with the "trespasser" angle is that I don't think a jury is going to be sympathetic to the fact this so called trespass was actually set up by this couple not delivering a kid to his dad in accordance with a custody agreement

    I am not sure about all that. I was under the impression that the kid was supposed to be somewhere else and the bio dad came looking at this house because he thought he might be there. If this was where they were supposed to do the kid exchange, that is different.
    DannyDuberstein
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    Regardless, mom and Kyle didn't deliver the kid which sets this whole thing off. And there was nothing in that video indicating the handoff was to be elsewhere
    cevans_40
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    DannyDuberstein said:

    Regardless, mom and Kyle didn't deliver the kid which sets this whole thing off. And there was nothing in that video indicating the handoff was to be elsewhere

    I thought he was arguing with mom early on about not meeting at 3:15. Agree that mom is as much to blame as anyone.
    We fixed the keg
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    Quote:

    Every time that some kook uses a firearm to kill someone, it is one more step toward confiscation of weapons.
    Holy crap, I am going to have my wife check my vitals because I finally agree with Eric on something.

    I am very pro second amendment and I also believe the right way forward is to follow the letter of the law. The outcome shouldn't come down to 'feels' or caving to media pressure, narratives, or projection.

    With that said, the more instances where use of deadly force are questionable with regards to 'stand your ground' and 'self defense' the closer we get to a tipping point and a majority start to go after 2nd amendment rights.
    TRM
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    cevans_40 said:

    DannyDuberstein said:

    The problem with the "trespasser" angle is that I don't think a jury is going to be sympathetic to the fact this so called trespass was actually set up by this couple not delivering a kid to his dad in accordance with a custody agreement

    I am not sure about all that. I was under the impression that the kid was supposed to be somewhere else and the bio dad came looking at this house because he thought he might be there. If this was where they were supposed to do the kid exchange, that is different.
    Supposedly, the ex told the deceased she would be at work at 3:15. I guess he thought the kid would be with her.
     
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