Lubbock Shooting

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aggiehawg
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Quote:

You can interpret what he said after the shooting to mean whatever you want, all he has to do is go into court and swear you and down that he feared for his life and why.
That's not as cut and dried as you may think it is. In fact, were Carruth my client, I wouldn't let him get within a mile of taking the stand. Not with those contemporaneous statements on video. You would be impeaching your own client and creating a question of his credibility.

Would be bad trial strategy, IMO. If he doesn't take the stand, defense also stands a better chance of keeping prior acts, including prior interactions between the three of them out of evidence upon motions in limine during pretrial proceedings.

Trials are all about strategy. How to get the good facts in your case into evidence and how to keep the bad facts that hurt your theory of the case out of evidence so that the jury never sees nor hears it.

For that reason, putting Carruth on the stand at trial (assuming he is indicted) is a very risky move.
Win Smith
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Agthatbuilds said:

sicandtiredTXN said:

BMX Bandit said:

Did Chad say he was going to shoot him?
Technically he said

"I'll blow your f****** head off"


The full exchange was;

Kyle: You need to leave right now

Chad then tries to grab at the rifle and one shot is fired into the wood porch

Kyle repeated : You need to effing leave now dammit

Chad: You don't have the f****** nerve to use it motherf*****r I'm going to take it from you and 'blow your f****** head off

Chad graps the barrel of the rifle with his right hand and grabs the shirt of Kyle with his left. He pivots swinging Kyle in a full circle slinging him off the porch, in that struggle process two more rounds go off striking no one

Kyle i flung about 12 ft +/- and regains his balance

Chad still on the front porch lifts his left leg about 6-10 inches like he was beginning to take a step and Kyle aims and shoots him once in the head and heck area and chad is spun to the left and lands face down not moving presumably dead


Not accurate. The dead guy does not try to grab the rifle at this point. He brushes it away.

It shouldn't matter that Chad may have been brushing the rifle away, instead of grabbing it, given what he had already said and that he was angry and in Kyle's face. What matters is, did Kyle reasonably believe that deadly force was immediately necessary? Not what you think or I think Chad was doing. If Kyle thought Chad was reaching for the rifle, which is a reasonable assumption given the circumstances, then it seems likely that he reasonably believed he needed to use deadly force to protect himself.
On another note, I only referenced Rittenhouse's right to have a gun to point out that Lubbock Kyle also had a right (and even a responsibility) to have a gun in this situation in response to the erroneous statements some have made here saying bringing the gun out was somehow an illegal threat.
neAGle96
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aggiehawg said:

txagB2 said:

And another thing the defense is self defense, you just admitted that Read is bigger and stronger. You've admitted he grabbed the rifle. We suspect, barring a court order, he was trespassing. So this guy threatens to take a gun a guys private property and blow his head off, is significantly larger, and then physically assaults him and you want me to believe he didn't fear for his life? Get out of here.
Did you hear what Carruth said to Read's current wife in the seconds after he had killed her husband?

Fear for his life nor anyone else's was never mentioned by Carruth. That's called a "bad fact" if the goal is to establish a perfect self defense defense. His words create another question of fact for a jury to decide.




In addition to what Kyle said and didn't say, his calm matter of fact tone didn't align with one who believed they just escaped imminent death or serious harm.

His tone was more animated when he came out of the house with the gun.
DannyDuberstein
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Exactly. The Dikembe Mutombo finger wag after he shot was almost as dumb as what he said
txagB2
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I don't disagree that it was stupid. BUT, I've never shot a man on my porch and don't know what is going through his head.

Again, you have to convince the jury beyond a reasonable doubt he didn't fear for his life. For me, a finger wag doesn't do that. It's peculiar behavior, but shooting a man on your porch is a peculiar situation.
unmade bed
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sicandtiredTXN said:

BMX Bandit said:

Did Chad say he was going to shoot him?
Technically he said

"I'll blow your f****** head off"


The full exchange was;

Kyle: You need to leave right now

Chad then tries to grab at the rifle and one shot is fired into the wood porch

Kyle repeated : You need to effing leave now dammit

Chad: You don't have the f****** nerve to use it motherf*****r I'm going to take it from you and 'blow your f****** head off

Chad graps the barrel of the rifle with his right hand and grabs the shirt of Kyle with his left. He pivots swinging Kyle in a full circle slinging him off the porch, in that struggle process two more rounds go off striking no one

Kyle i flung about 12 ft +/- and regains his balance

Chad still on the front porch lifts his left leg about 6-10 inches like he was beginning to take a step and Kyle aims and shoots him once in the head and heck area and chad is spun to the left and lands face down not moving presumably dead


This is not an accurate transcript, at all. There is hardly any back and forth between the two men once the shot is fired into the ground. It sounds like Chad says "you really think I'm scared of you b***h" or something like that.

Chad actually tells Kyle he better use the gun and and that he is going to take it from him right as the two men get face to face (before any shot is fired). It is far from clear what Chad says after he says he is going to take the gun. (Unless you have the unedited video, but I doubt that considering you have the timing of when things were said wrong).
Who?mikejones!
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But he didn't feel he was in immediate danger because he shot into the dirt and not at the person.

neAGle96
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I think others were stating Kyle discharging the warning shot was an illegal threat of serious bodily harm to Chad, not the mere presence of the gun (which Kyle had a legal right to retrieve).

Branca mentioned the imminent threat window opened and closed. While Kyle may have had the imminent threat window opened when Chad grabbed the gun, it likely closed after the sling and they were separated by 12-15ft. At that time, Chad was standing still, hands by his side and Kyle was facing him from 12-15' away. At this moment the imminent threat window is likely closed, yet Kyle takes a step back, raises the rifle, aims, and fires.
aggiehawg
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aggiehawg said:

Quote:

Hawg, seriously… how can you say definitively he was just using the rifle to fling him off the porch and wasn't seriously trying to take it? It's speculation, you could just as easily speculate he was trying to take it and failed or slipped and the shooter was able to maintain control. The constant here is that Read said, "You better use it MF or I will take it from you and blow your….presumably head off but it was garbled." And as you stated grabbed the rifle. He said he was going to take it and use it, and then grabbed the rifle, but we are to believe he wasn't trying to take it? He said what he was going to do.
Observational skills. Read, bigger much stronger guy than Carruth. If Read was after the gun, he would have hung on and a real struggle over the gun would have ensued, with both them having their hands on the weapon. If Read had a bad grip, he would have tried to get a better one, if taking the gun away was his true intent at that moment.

That didn't happen, ergo Read apparently released his grip on the weapon once Carruth was stumbling away backwards.

A jury could disagree with that take, obviously but that's what I see in the video. Especially the slowed down gif of the video from inside the house, I posted earlier. In slo-mo, it becomes much clearer, to me at least.
Let's come back to this point for a second.

Carruth's attorney was the one who put out a statement characterizing Read's flinging Carruth away as Carruth was a "Scarecrow" Now while true that attorney statements are not evidence, the chances that that phrase comes into evidence because someone else repeats (hint: Christina Read, the ex) is more likely. Clients tend to pick up on buzzwords they hear or read their attorney says. Witnesses can aswell.

The implication being that if Chad Read really intended to take that gun away from Carruth, he could have easily done so since Carruth is as weak as straw filled farming trick to keep birds away from a crop.

Of course, the opposite could be argued as well. That Carruth really is a soy boy weakling and was always afraid of Read. But would Carruth not bristle at that? Sitting at defense table in full view of the jury? He comes off as an excitable type, to me. Not sure he could sit there and hear his own lawyer portray him as the guy always getting sand kicked in his face in a old Charles Atlas ad.

Reason number one that defense attorneys should keep their mouths shut other than saying their client is innocent and look forward to being vindicated, period. Never ever tell the prosecution their theory of the defense. One never knows what can come back to bite you in the butt.
Ukraine Gas Expert
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One thing that bugs me is if the shooter was so scared for himself and the girl, why did he leave her alone to go grab the gun? Chad had ample time to do something if he wanted.

Then when the shooter returns, why not grab the girl and retreat to safety inside? I'd never leave someone outside alone if I felt they were in true danger. I would have told her to get inside and wait. Chad didn't have a gun, or weapon. It wasn't like he was pointing a weapon at her and shooter had to go get something to defend her.

As much as I'd like to pretend I'd want to be a hero, best course of action, and legal in my perspective, is to get her and myself inside. If Chad pursues, well then all bets are off. Shooter didn't. He left the girl by herself and never made a real attempt to protect her, get in between, other than getting the gun and making a bad situation worse.
DannyDuberstein
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Exactly. His actions before and after scream trespass vs fear
Dirty_Mike&the_boys
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Agthatbuilds said:

sicandtiredTXN said:

BMX Bandit said:

Did Chad say he was going to shoot him?
Technically he said

"I'll blow your f****** head off"


The full exchange was;

Kyle: You need to leave right now

Chad then tries to grab at the rifle and one shot is fired into the wood porch

Kyle repeated : You need to effing leave now dammit

Chad: You don't have the f****** nerve to use it motherf*****r I'm going to take it from you and 'blow your f****** head off

Chad graps the barrel of the rifle with his right hand and grabs the shirt of Kyle with his left. He pivots swinging Kyle in a full circle slinging him off the porch, in that struggle process two more rounds go off striking no one

Kyle i flung about 12 ft +/- and regains his balance

Chad still on the front porch lifts his left leg about 6-10 inches like he was beginning to take a step and Kyle aims and shoots him once in the head and heck area and chad is spun to the left and lands face down not moving presumably dead


Not accurate. The dead guy does not try to grab the rifle at this point. He brushes it away.
I beg to differ but whatever

It look to me he made a swipe at it attempting to grab it and Kyle pulled it down and away, and that when he shot the wood porch
“ How you fellas doin? We about to have us a little screw party in this red Prius over here if you wanna join us.”
DannyDuberstein
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I don't see how anyone could think that first move was a grab. But whatever. I want a jury to decide it
neAGle96
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DannyDuberstein said:

Exactly. The Dikembe Mutombo finger wag after he shot was almost as dumb as what he said


Did he really do a Dikembe finger wag, and if so, at who?

I didn't notice that.
Dirty_Mike&the_boys
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neAGle96 said:

Quote:


Chad still on the front porch lifts his left leg about 6-10 inches like he was beginning to take a step and Kyle aims and shoots him once in the head and heck area and chad is spun to the left and lands face down not moving presumably dead


I didn't see that. After the slinging of Kyle, Chad is clearly off the porch. He remains standing straight up, hands by his side, when Kyle takes a step back, shoulders his rifle, aims, and fires.

watch his left leg just before he shoots

“ How you fellas doin? We about to have us a little screw party in this red Prius over here if you wanna join us.”
DannyDuberstein
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neAGle96 said:

DannyDuberstein said:

Exactly. The Dikembe Mutombo finger wag after he shot was almost as dumb as what he said


Did he really do a Dikembe finger wag, and if so, at who?

I didn't notice that.


He does it immediately after the shooting, directed at the dad new wife when he's saying he told them to leave. Then he switches from a finger to a full hand wave
neAGle96
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txagB2 said:

I don't disagree that it was stupid. BUT, I've never shot a man on my porch and don't know what is going through his head.

Again, you have to convince the jury beyond a reasonable doubt he didn't fear for his life. For me, a finger wag doesn't do that. It's peculiar behavior, but shooting a man on your porch is a peculiar situation.


Agree, it will depend on what the jury perceives, if it ever goes to court.

Not to be a smart @$$, but Kyle didn't shoot Chad on his porch. Chad is standing just in front of the porch when he is shot. He falls and the momentum carries his torso up onto the edge of the porch. He ends up with his waste down just off the porch
neAGle96
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His left leg does slightly raise… it may be before the hit or it could be from the momentum of the shot. Idk

His hands do remain at his side, if he was charging or about to charge his arms would swing into motion.

Watch the arm movements of a sprinter when they take off.. or try to sprint from a standstill naturally and then with your arms remaining at your side. It isn't very effective to run w your arms in a stationary position at your side
Ukraine Gas Expert
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Yeah I didn't get much from the video. The shooter also doesn't strike me as someone proficient enough to recognize the slight leg move. He made up his mind as soon as Chad swung him he was going to kill him.
Marcus Brutus
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sicandtiredTXN said:

neAGle96 said:

Quote:


Chad still on the front porch lifts his left leg about 6-10 inches like he was beginning to take a step and Kyle aims and shoots him once in the head and heck area and chad is spun to the left and lands face down not moving presumably dead


I didn't see that. After the slinging of Kyle, Chad is clearly off the porch. He remains standing straight up, hands by his side, when Kyle takes a step back, shoulders his rifle, aims, and fires.

watch his left leg just before he shoots






Yeah, he's going after him. That's obvious.
Marlin39m
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Not that it matters, because the shot was already in process, but that is his forward leg. If anything, he was about to step back. You don't start forward with your leading foot. But it is inconsequential, anyway.
aggiehawg
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CCP Joe Veggie said:

sicandtiredTXN said:

neAGle96 said:

Quote:


Chad still on the front porch lifts his left leg about 6-10 inches like he was beginning to take a step and Kyle aims and shoots him once in the head and heck area and chad is spun to the left and lands face down not moving presumably dead


I didn't see that. After the slinging of Kyle, Chad is clearly off the porch. He remains standing straight up, hands by his side, when Kyle takes a step back, shoulders his rifle, aims, and fires.

watch his left leg just before he shoots






Yeah, he's going after him. That's obvious.
Watch the perspective of Read and the white truck in the background. The only movement that is seen is the result of the first shot hitting him.

Will need to read the autopsy to confirm but Read has already been hit when he appears to move forward, again, vis a vis the truck in the background.
Marcus Brutus
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It's not like one foot was significantly in front of the other. In that case, you lead with either leg.

Its consequential because it goes to the state of mind of Chad, which was to take the gun and use it.
92AG10
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sicandtiredTXN said:

neAGle96 said:

Quote:


Chad still on the front porch lifts his left leg about 6-10 inches like he was beginning to take a step and Kyle aims and shoots him once in the head and heck area and chad is spun to the left and lands face down not moving presumably dead


I didn't see that. After the slinging of Kyle, Chad is clearly off the porch. He remains standing straight up, hands by his side, when Kyle takes a step back, shoulders his rifle, aims, and fires.

watch his left leg just before he shoots




Have you seen the autopsy? Can you confirm that he was/wasn't struck in the foot or leg by the previous shot?

Of course you can't
Marlin39m
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No, it goes to what the jurors think is reasonable given the circumstances. Whatever he might have in his mind has to be viewed as reasonable and not irrational by them. There is a difference.
Ol Rock
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If I'm on the jury, that's Murder.

Say what you will and show me the stand your ground law ten more times, but he wanted to shoot that man. The victim has every right to be upset at the situation. He acted aggressively when threated with the gun, but showed restraint. The shooter walked back into his house where he was perfectly safe and came back with his gun instead of calling the cops. Damning evidence, the woman doesn't look too worried when she's all alone with her ex.

Had police arrived I submit that no tickets or arrests would have been made.

The state is going to be mad that another tramp won't get alimony and child support.

We all see different things, but if I was on that jury... that was murder.

A similar case, IMHO, was the Florida man who got pushed at the convenience store and shot and killed the man in retaliation. He went to jail, as should this stooge.

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/florida-man-who-shot-unarmed-man-parking-space-dispute-sentenced-n1064626
Dirty_Mike&the_boys
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92AG10 said:

sicandtiredTXN said:

neAGle96 said:

Quote:


Chad still on the front porch lifts his left leg about 6-10 inches like he was beginning to take a step and Kyle aims and shoots him once in the head and heck area and chad is spun to the left and lands face down not moving presumably dead


I didn't see that. After the slinging of Kyle, Chad is clearly off the porch. He remains standing straight up, hands by his side, when Kyle takes a step back, shoulders his rifle, aims, and fires.

watch his left leg just before he shoots




Have you seen the autopsy? Can you confirm that he was/wasn't struck in the foot or leg by the previous shot?

Of course you can't
No I haven't seen the autopsy just going by what was reported

However look how he grabs the rifle, he's choked up on it so far the muzzle i past him





Guess eventually we will find out



“ How you fellas doin? We about to have us a little screw party in this red Prius over here if you wanna join us.”
Marcus Brutus
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Marlin39m said:

No, it goes to what the jurors think is reasonable given the circumstances. Whatever he might have in his mind has to be viewed as reasonable and not irrational by them. There is a difference.


Of course. And its certainly reasonable and rational to believe that Chad intended to take the gun and use it since he threatened to do just that, followed up by grabbing the gun, followed by what could be interpreted as his initial advancement towards Kyle in the yard.
IDaggie06
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Kyle's opportunity for self defense was immediately when Chad attempted to grab the gun from him. Instead Kyle chose to fire a warning shot. The opportunity for self defense was not open when he was yards away from Chad and Chad was not acting like a threat to him.
AgAE
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IDaggie06 said:

Kyle's opportunity for self defense was immediately when Chad attempted to grab the gun from him. Instead Kyle chose to fire a warning shot. The opportunity for self defense was not open when he was yards away from Chad and Chad was not acting like a threat to him.

His opportunity was when Read first stepped on the porch and immediately after the verbal threat and before getting into the chest bumping contest. His window closed as soon as he pulled the trigger on the warning shot.
Marcus Brutus
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AgAE said:

IDaggie06 said:

Kyle's opportunity for self defense was immediately when Chad attempted to grab the gun from him. Instead Kyle chose to fire a warning shot. The opportunity for self defense was not open when he was yards away from Chad and Chad was not acting like a threat to him.

His opportunity was when Read first stepped on the porch and immediately after the verbal threat and before getting into the chest bumping contest. His window closed as soon as he pulled the trigger on the warning shot.


Being resistant to using deadly force doesn't close the window on using it.
aggiehawg
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AgAE said:

IDaggie06 said:

Kyle's opportunity for self defense was immediately when Chad attempted to grab the gun from him. Instead Kyle chose to fire a warning shot. The opportunity for self defense was not open when he was yards away from Chad and Chad was not acting like a threat to him.

His opportunity was when Read first stepped on the porch and immediately after the verbal threat and before getting into the chest bumping contest. His window closed as soon as he pulled the trigger on the warning shot.
You are an engineer, correct? Lawyers don't like engineers on juries (not me when I had a good case) usually because analytics don't work well with juries, in general.

I think you might have just become Exhibit A in that debate.
AgAE
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aggiehawg said:

AgAE said:

IDaggie06 said:

Kyle's opportunity for self defense was immediately when Chad attempted to grab the gun from him. Instead Kyle chose to fire a warning shot. The opportunity for self defense was not open when he was yards away from Chad and Chad was not acting like a threat to him.

His opportunity was when Read first stepped on the porch and immediately after the verbal threat and before getting into the chest bumping contest. His window closed as soon as he pulled the trigger on the warning shot.
You are an engineer, correct? Lawyers don't like engineers on juries (not me when I had a good case) usually because analytics don't work well with juries, in general.

I think you might have just become Exhibit A in that debate.

Not an engineer. Just being logical.
aggiehawg
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CCP Joe Veggie said:

AgAE said:

IDaggie06 said:

Kyle's opportunity for self defense was immediately when Chad attempted to grab the gun from him. Instead Kyle chose to fire a warning shot. The opportunity for self defense was not open when he was yards away from Chad and Chad was not acting like a threat to him.

His opportunity was when Read first stepped on the porch and immediately after the verbal threat and before getting into the chest bumping contest. His window closed as soon as he pulled the trigger on the warning shot.


Being resistant to using deadly force doesn't close the window on using it.
Uhmm, yes it can, when subsequent actions negate it.

We just went through this with Rittenhouse and Arbery trials.
aggiehawg
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AgAE said:

aggiehawg said:

AgAE said:

IDaggie06 said:

Kyle's opportunity for self defense was immediately when Chad attempted to grab the gun from him. Instead Kyle chose to fire a warning shot. The opportunity for self defense was not open when he was yards away from Chad and Chad was not acting like a threat to him.

His opportunity was when Read first stepped on the porch and immediately after the verbal threat and before getting into the chest bumping contest. His window closed as soon as he pulled the trigger on the warning shot.
You are an engineer, correct? Lawyers don't like engineers on juries (not me when I had a good case) usually because analytics don't work well with juries, in general.

I think you might have just become Exhibit A in that debate.

Not an engineer. Just being logical.
My apologies. Saw the AE and thought engineer. I stand corrected.
 
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