AgBQ-00 said:

---

If one of the first shots shattered his pelvis he is probably falling forward. A follow on shot can enter the back in a downward trajectory while there was no turning and running that occurred. It depends on where is entered and the angle it entered that I am hoping is to see demonstrated.

---

Yep, think about it if Rosenbaum was falling forward and Rittenhouse backing up simultaneously you can see how a shot might have hit his back. Did they say where in the back? I'd assume upper back/shoulder area perhaps??

aggiehawg said:

---

I still don't understand the narrative of Kyle being in front, face to face with Rosenbaum, two shots to Rosenbaum's legs, Rosenbaum is falling face first towards Rittenhouse yet there is a penetrating shot to Rosenbaum's back from the same distance? They are still face to face?

Confused by Binger's description of how that took place.

---

Rittenhouse had to be basically standing over Rosenbaum. Makes sense that they were in close proximity. Rittenhouse carrying weapon muzzle down. Rosenbaum advances for the weapon. Rittenhouse raises muzzle and squeezes off two rounds. Rittenhouse retreats as Rosenbaum falls face first. Rittenhouse fires another round into his back.

BTW they said Rosenbaum was shot 4 times causing 5 injuries. When was 4th shot?

That is what I want to see as well. That is my assumption just watching the videos.

AgBQ-00 said:

---

If one of the first shots shattered his pelvis he is probably falling forward. A follow on shot can enter the back in a downward trajectory while there was no turning and running that occurred. It depends on where is entered and the angle it entered that I am hoping is to see demonstrated.

---

That's not what I heard the DA say. First two shots hit Rosenbaum in the right groin, second shot grazed his left thigh? Isn't that what he said?

that's different then what the DA stated

DA stated Kyle didn't render aide, he shot and ran away

Having posted the video, I do not think that summary accurately portrays what happened

The prosecution's opening statement helps the defense. IMO (un-legal as it is....)

Quote:

---

Dr. Kelley indicated that Rosenbaum had a gunshot wound to the right groin which fractured his pelvis,

---

I was going off of the autopsy segment posted earlier.

Branca's take.

Quote:

---

Prosecutor Binger finishes opening, exactly the kind of ambiguous and irrelevant hand-waving one would expect in this kind of politically motived trial. Virtually no evidence inconsistent with lawful self-defense.

---

I imagine the shot in the back puncturing the lung and liver are the most critical/ fatal wounds. Other gunshots the Rosenbaum could have probably recovered from (groin/ hip, hand) unless there's an artery or similar Rittenhouse happened to hit.

aggiehawg said:

---

Branca's take.

Quote:

---

Prosecutor Binger finishes opening, exactly the kind of ambiguous and irrelevant hand-waving one would expect in this kind of politically motived trial. Virtually no evidence inconsistent with lawful self-defense.

---

---

I agree(not a lawyer). Rittenhouse killed and injured those people.

A couple white dots on an infared camera don't mean much

Agthatbuilds said:

---

aquarian said:

---

pacecar02 said:

---

said he didn't stop and attempt to render aide

---

He didn't. He viewed the body, called his buddy, and ran off.

---

In context of everything going on that evening, I'm not sure it would have been wise to sit around and let a crowd gather near him

---

Plus there had already been a gun fired before Kyle shot. So he knew someone close by was armed, even if he didn't know who it was.

Agthatbuilds said:

---

aquarian said:

---

pacecar02 said:

---

said he didn't stop and attempt to render aide

---

He didn't. He viewed the body, called his buddy, and ran off.

---

In context of everything going on that evening, I'm not sure it would have been wise to sit around and let a crowd gather near him

---

Reporting I heard just after it all happened was he called 911 they advised him they could not get to the site and told him to make it to their lines a few blocks away. After that he called a friend for help and let them know he was heading toward police. But that all could have been mis-reported at the time

Also, the prosecution said that the Rittenhouse was chasing Rosenbaum(?), but them Rosenbaum was chasing Rittenhouse at some point too? He said Rittenhouse raised his weapon and pointed at the guy, who then raised his hands in a "What are you going to do about it" sort of way, then Rittenhouse ran off and the guy followed.

I'm confused. If Rittenhouse basically gave the guy warning and then the guy continued to pursue, seems the guy was the one pushing the conflict. Not Rittenhouse. Guess we'll find out.

Also, t&p for my work load. These cases always distract me to the max

Agthatbuilds said:

---

aquarian said:

---

pacecar02 said:

---

said he didn't stop and attempt to render aide

---

He didn't. He viewed the body, called his buddy, and ran off.

---

In context of everything going on that evening, I'm not sure it would have been wise to sit around and let a crowd gather near him

---

Random question & hypothetical, someone does shoot someone in self defense, does the shooter have any responsibility to help the person they shot? I'm not saying perform surgery to take the bullet out and patch the wound, but at the minimum to call 911 reporting the self-defense incident (and letting emergency services do its service).

aggiehawg said:

---

Recap of yesterday courtesy of Branca:

Quote:

---

Highlights of today's voir dire include:

• The defense voir dire suggesting that Kyle Rittenhouse might testify at trial
• Judge Schroeder contextualizing juror security concerns by noting that even judges hardly ever get assassinated
• A juror excused because Second Amendment beliefs would not allow impartiality
• A juror excused because hatred of AR rifles would not allow impartiality
• A juror excused because she understood "Thou shalt not kill" to be literal
• Judge Schroeder instructing jurors on "semi-automatic" versus "machine gun"
• And much, much more! So let's dive right in!

---

Quote:

---

Trial Judge Bruce Schroeder has decided that he wants to end up with a seated jury of 20, to include 12 jurors who will deliberate a verdict, and 8 alternates. Which specific jurors are alternates will not be determined until just before deliberations.

Judge Schroeder has also allowed each side to have 7 peremptory strikes, for a total of 14 strikes.

So, the Judge is looking to put together a group of 34 "qualified" jurors from which 14 can be struck, leaving the goal of 20 jurors to be seated.

---

Quote:

---

OUTLINING THE CHARGES AND GENERAL NARRATIVE OF EVENTS
Judge Schroeder welcomed the prospective jurors, actually starting the day with an impromptu game of Jeopardy as everybody got settled.
He then named the defendant, Kyle Rittenhouse, and read out the charges against him, with a brief factual description of each, carefully noting that each was at present merely an allegation by the state. These charges consisted of the six criminal charges I overviewed and analyzed in yesterday's post "Rittenhouse Trial: What to Expect As Trial Starts Monday" with an additional seventh charge of violating curfewthis last charge, however, appears non-criminal in nature, as the state is required to prove it only be clear and convincing evidence. Each criminal charge must, of course, be proven beyond a reasonable doubt, or the jury is obliged to acquit on that charge.

---

Quote:

---

Kyle is being tried on a variety of charges, including the felonies of intentional homicide, reckless homicide, attempted intentional homicide, two counts of reckless endangerment, as well as a misdemeanor charge of weapons possession by a minor. (Update: There is also a civil charge of violation of curfew, but this is not a criminal charge and is punishable by only a ticket, so we won't spend much time on it here.)

---

Quote:

---

On the night of August 25, 2020, 17-year-old Kyle Rittenhouse traveled from his hometown of Antioch IL to the neighboring border town of Kenosha WI, where he had worked as a lifeguard and spent considerable time.
Kyle's stated purpose was to help protect property from the riots, looting, and arson that had besieged the city since the lawful shooting of Jacob Blake by police two days earlier. (Blake, a 29-year-old black man, non-compliant with lawful arrest, wielding a knife in his hand, and was climbing into a car full of children when police shot him.)
Kyle, trained in medical care, also intended to provide such care to anyone injured that he might come across. For that purpose, he carried with him a sizable first-aid kit. In recognition of the violence rampaging through the city, Kyle also armed himself with an AR-15 pattern rifle (open carry of firearms is lawful in Wisconsin).

---

Quote:

---

Count 1. First degree reckless homicide (Rosenbaum). At approximately 11:45pm amidst the chaos of August 25, 2020, Kyle would shoot and kill Joseph Rosenbaum, in claimed self-defense. This would result in the first degree reckless homicide charge against Kyle, Count 1 in the criminal complaint, under 940.02(1) First-degree reckless homicide.. If convicted of this charge Kyle is looking at up to 60 years in prison, plus an additional 5 years for having used a dangerous weapon.

Count 2. First degree reckless endangering (McGinnis). Near to this scene was a reporter, Richard McGinnis, who had moments before been interviewing Kyle. McGinnis would later tell police that he did not think that Kyle was handing his rifle safely. This would result in the first degree reckless endangering charge against Kyle, Count 2 of the criminal complaint, under 941.30(1). Recklessly endangering safety. If convicted on this charge Kyle is looking at up to 12 years in prison, plus an additional 5 years for having used a dangerous weapon.

After shooting Rosenbaum, Kyle began to run towards a line of police officers who had created a vehicle barricade a short distance down the street. During this flight to police Kyle was pursued by angry members of the mob, during which he would fall to the street. Once fallen, Kyle was subject to violent attack by several men.

Count 3. First degree intentional homicide (Huber). One of the men who attacked Kyle was Anthony M. Huber. While Kyle was struggling to get up from where he had fallen, Huber struck at Kyle's head and neck with a heavy skateboard. Kyle shot Huber, with fatal results. This would result in the first degree intentional homicide charge against Kyle, Count 3 of the criminal complaint, under 940.01(1)(a). First degree intentional homicide If convicted on this charge Kyle is looking at life imprisonmentand, once again, an additional 5 years for having used a dangerous weapon.

Count 4. Attempted first degree intentional homicide (Grosskreutz). Another of the men who attacked Kyle was Gaige Grosskreutz. While Kyle was fighting off the other attackers as he struggled to rise from the street, Grosskreutz approached Kyle initially with his hands up in a peaceful gesture, but then swiftly presented a pistol and rapidly closed on Kyle. Kyle shot Grosskreutz, striking him in the right bicep, causing serious not but fatal injury. This would result in the attempted first degree intentional homicide charge against Kyle, Count 4 of the criminal complaint, under 940.01(1)(a). First degree intentional homicide. If convicted on this charge Kyle is looking 60 years in prison, plus an additional 5 years for having used a dangerous weapon.

Count 5. First degree reckless endangerment (unknown male). Another of the men who attacked Kyle was an unidentified male who attempted a flying drop kick onto Kyle as he lay in the street. Kyle shot at this attacker, but missed. This would result in the first degree reckless endangerment charge against Kyle, Count 5 in the criminal complaint, under 941.30(1). Recklessly endangering safety. If convicted on this charge Kyle is looking at up to 12 years in prison, plus an additional 5 years for having used a dangerous weapon.

Count 6. Unlawful Weapon Possession by Minor. Finally, Kyle also would be charged with unlawful possession of a weapon by a minor, Count 6 in the criminal complaint, under 948.60(2)(a). Possession of a dangerous weapon by a person under 18. This is the sole misdemeanor charge specified in the criminal complaint, and if convicted on this charge Kyle is looking at up to 9 months in prison.

---

Link

---

I think the prosecutor forgot to add "deadly conduct toward people with German names".

Hawg, as someone who hasn't really followed much since the actual event.. what do your instincts tell you about how this all ends up?

I dont know. I think it would depend on the scene. I wouldn't stick around in Rittenhouses scenario

Quote:

---

Also, t&p for my work load.

---

Yes! Mr. Schwack needs me to go pick up something for him but I'm like.... uh....opening statements?!?!?!?

Agthatbuilds said:

---

Also, the prosecution said that the Rittenhouse was chasing Rosenbaum(?), but them Rosenbaum was chasing Rittenhouse at some point too? He said Rittenhouse raised his weapon and pointed at the guy, who then raised his hands in a "What are you going to do about it" sort of way, then Rittenhouse ran off and the guy followed.

I'm confused. If Rittenhouse basically gave the guy warning and then the guy continued to pursue, seems the guy was the one pushing the conflict. Not Rittenhouse. Guess we'll find out.

---

Glad I'm not the only one baffled here. To me the autopsy results don't jive with the DA's description.

UTExan said:

---

aggiehawg said:

---

Recap of yesterday courtesy of Branca:

Quote:

---

Highlights of today's voir dire include:

• The defense voir dire suggesting that Kyle Rittenhouse might testify at trial
• Judge Schroeder contextualizing juror security concerns by noting that even judges hardly ever get assassinated
• A juror excused because Second Amendment beliefs would not allow impartiality
• A juror excused because hatred of AR rifles would not allow impartiality
• A juror excused because she understood "Thou shalt not kill" to be literal
• Judge Schroeder instructing jurors on "semi-automatic" versus "machine gun"
• And much, much more! So let's dive right in!

---

Quote:

---

Trial Judge Bruce Schroeder has decided that he wants to end up with a seated jury of 20, to include 12 jurors who will deliberate a verdict, and 8 alternates. Which specific jurors are alternates will not be determined until just before deliberations.

Judge Schroeder has also allowed each side to have 7 peremptory strikes, for a total of 14 strikes.

So, the Judge is looking to put together a group of 34 "qualified" jurors from which 14 can be struck, leaving the goal of 20 jurors to be seated.

---

Quote:

---

OUTLINING THE CHARGES AND GENERAL NARRATIVE OF EVENTS
Judge Schroeder welcomed the prospective jurors, actually starting the day with an impromptu game of Jeopardy as everybody got settled.
He then named the defendant, Kyle Rittenhouse, and read out the charges against him, with a brief factual description of each, carefully noting that each was at present merely an allegation by the state. These charges consisted of the six criminal charges I overviewed and analyzed in yesterday's post "Rittenhouse Trial: What to Expect As Trial Starts Monday" with an additional seventh charge of violating curfewthis last charge, however, appears non-criminal in nature, as the state is required to prove it only be clear and convincing evidence. Each criminal charge must, of course, be proven beyond a reasonable doubt, or the jury is obliged to acquit on that charge.

---

Quote:

---

Kyle is being tried on a variety of charges, including the felonies of intentional homicide, reckless homicide, attempted intentional homicide, two counts of reckless endangerment, as well as a misdemeanor charge of weapons possession by a minor. (Update: There is also a civil charge of violation of curfew, but this is not a criminal charge and is punishable by only a ticket, so we won't spend much time on it here.)

---

Quote:

---

On the night of August 25, 2020, 17-year-old Kyle Rittenhouse traveled from his hometown of Antioch IL to the neighboring border town of Kenosha WI, where he had worked as a lifeguard and spent considerable time.
Kyle's stated purpose was to help protect property from the riots, looting, and arson that had besieged the city since the lawful shooting of Jacob Blake by police two days earlier. (Blake, a 29-year-old black man, non-compliant with lawful arrest, wielding a knife in his hand, and was climbing into a car full of children when police shot him.)
Kyle, trained in medical care, also intended to provide such care to anyone injured that he might come across. For that purpose, he carried with him a sizable first-aid kit. In recognition of the violence rampaging through the city, Kyle also armed himself with an AR-15 pattern rifle (open carry of firearms is lawful in Wisconsin).

---

Quote:

---

Count 1. First degree reckless homicide (Rosenbaum). At approximately 11:45pm amidst the chaos of August 25, 2020, Kyle would shoot and kill Joseph Rosenbaum, in claimed self-defense. This would result in the first degree reckless homicide charge against Kyle, Count 1 in the criminal complaint, under 940.02(1) First-degree reckless homicide.. If convicted of this charge Kyle is looking at up to 60 years in prison, plus an additional 5 years for having used a dangerous weapon.

Count 2. First degree reckless endangering (McGinnis). Near to this scene was a reporter, Richard McGinnis, who had moments before been interviewing Kyle. McGinnis would later tell police that he did not think that Kyle was handing his rifle safely. This would result in the first degree reckless endangering charge against Kyle, Count 2 of the criminal complaint, under 941.30(1). Recklessly endangering safety. If convicted on this charge Kyle is looking at up to 12 years in prison, plus an additional 5 years for having used a dangerous weapon.

After shooting Rosenbaum, Kyle began to run towards a line of police officers who had created a vehicle barricade a short distance down the street. During this flight to police Kyle was pursued by angry members of the mob, during which he would fall to the street. Once fallen, Kyle was subject to violent attack by several men.

Count 3. First degree intentional homicide (Huber). One of the men who attacked Kyle was Anthony M. Huber. While Kyle was struggling to get up from where he had fallen, Huber struck at Kyle's head and neck with a heavy skateboard. Kyle shot Huber, with fatal results. This would result in the first degree intentional homicide charge against Kyle, Count 3 of the criminal complaint, under 940.01(1)(a). First degree intentional homicide If convicted on this charge Kyle is looking at life imprisonmentand, once again, an additional 5 years for having used a dangerous weapon.

Count 4. Attempted first degree intentional homicide (Grosskreutz). Another of the men who attacked Kyle was Gaige Grosskreutz. While Kyle was fighting off the other attackers as he struggled to rise from the street, Grosskreutz approached Kyle initially with his hands up in a peaceful gesture, but then swiftly presented a pistol and rapidly closed on Kyle. Kyle shot Grosskreutz, striking him in the right bicep, causing serious not but fatal injury. This would result in the attempted first degree intentional homicide charge against Kyle, Count 4 of the criminal complaint, under 940.01(1)(a). First degree intentional homicide. If convicted on this charge Kyle is looking 60 years in prison, plus an additional 5 years for having used a dangerous weapon.

Count 5. First degree reckless endangerment (unknown male). Another of the men who attacked Kyle was an unidentified male who attempted a flying drop kick onto Kyle as he lay in the street. Kyle shot at this attacker, but missed. This would result in the first degree reckless endangerment charge against Kyle, Count 5 in the criminal complaint, under 941.30(1). Recklessly endangering safety. If convicted on this charge Kyle is looking at up to 12 years in prison, plus an additional 5 years for having used a dangerous weapon.

Count 6. Unlawful Weapon Possession by Minor. Finally, Kyle also would be charged with unlawful possession of a weapon by a minor, Count 6 in the criminal complaint, under 948.60(2)(a). Possession of a dangerous weapon by a person under 18. This is the sole misdemeanor charge specified in the criminal complaint, and if convicted on this charge Kyle is looking at up to 9 months in prison.

---

Link

---

I think the prosecutor forgot to add "deadly conduct toward people with German names".

---

Capital crime in the Lutheran strongholds of the Midwest.

The da's statement seems like a pretty easy opening to go after. Let's see how good Rittenhouse's lawyer is.

Good Poster said:

---

Hawg, as someone who hasn't really followed much since the actual event.. what do your instincts tell you about how this all ends up?

---

Have a better sense once I see the opening statements of the defense. They will apparently have videos and stills.

Thanks! I won't be able to watch along but I'll be reading the thread.

Can definitely see the family resemblance between the defendant and the woman sitting 4 rows back at 11 o'clock.

were no exhibits pre-admitted?

Agthatbuilds said:

---

Also, the prosecution said that the Rittenhouse was chasing Rosenbaum(?), but them Rosenbaum was chasing Rittenhouse at some point too? He said Rittenhouse raised his weapon and pointed at the guy, who then raised his hands in a "What are you going to do about it" sort of way, then Rittenhouse ran off and the guy followed.

I'm confused. If Rittenhouse basically gave the guy warning and then the guy continued to pursue, seems the guy was the one pushing the conflict. Not Rittenhouse. Guess we'll find out.

---

Prosecutor is either an idiot or only doing this as political theater, because even he knows that the second Rosenbaum began pursuing Rittenhouse he became the aggressor, regardless of anything that happened previously. You simply can't chase someone who is holding a gun and then claim you're somehow the victim.

Lmao. Don't bring up Rosenbaum having a restraining order by his girlfriend. There are lots of reasons wife beaters can't stay with their slam hogs.

Agthatbuilds said:

---

Also, the prosecution said that the Rittenhouse was chasing Rosenbaum(?), but them Rosenbaum was chasing Rittenhouse at some point too? He said Rittenhouse raised his weapon and pointed at the guy, who then raised his hands in a "What are you going to do about it" sort of way, then Rittenhouse ran off and the guy followed.

I'm confused. If Rittenhouse basically gave the guy warning and then the guy continued to pursue, seems the guy was the one pushing the conflict. Not Rittenhouse. Guess we'll find out.

---

I don't believe (could be wrong, its been a while) that we have any video or have seen any video of the altercation or events that led up to the video clip we see of Rosenbaum chasing Rittenhouse into the parking lot. Will probably have testimony on that from witnesses I guess.

Supposedly, I think Rittenhouse was trying to get Rosenbaum and some others from setting fire to a dumpster and maybe confronted them and that's what led to the chase across the parking lot. I know from earlier videos that Rosenbaum was already starting fights and bowing up to the guys that Rittenhouse was with so he was in a frame of mind for fighting and altercations. That should help Rittenhouse's defense.

Rosenbaum tried to commit suicide?

Wait a minute. The DA wants the girlfriend to testify that he saw her but could not stay, but does not want to address why he did not stay?

So we don't want the jury to know that he has no regard for the law and was possibly suicidal with no regard for his on life? Seems to be pretty huge parts of the defense

he just needed a kidney transplant