why is that not the optimal option if fighting has to be done?Salute The Marines said:aalan94 said:Let's visit again when the dirty nuke goes off in Dallas.Quote:It absolutely is too much. And we should leave Korea too.Quote:
$45 billion and 20,000 troops was a damn small price to pay to keep our boot on the neck of the snake. Keep in mind, that's FEWER than the 28,000 troops we keep in South Korea SEVENTY YEARS after that war ended.
Ah yes, the "let's fight them there so we don't have to here defense".
As long as it is ME who VOLUNTEERED to go while you're sitting on your ****ing couch safe knowing that we have no draft in America, what's your problem with that?Quote:
Ah yes, the "let's fight them there so we don't have to here defense".
aggiedent said:
2. Why did anyone believe we could ever train the Afghanistan armed forces to fight on their own when the Afghan leadership has been so week and serviceman aren't even getting paid regularly. You can't prop up weak and ineffectual governments to stand on their own. Nobody ever seems to learn historical lessons.
It won't be ignored right now, but does anybody really think most Americans will be paying much attention or care what is going on in Afganistan a year from now? Probably this message board will not have a single active thread on Afganistan in August 2022. Probably a lot earlier than that Afganistan will cease to be a topic getting much activity here.Eliminatus said:
Great writeup. I can contest a few points but overall hard agree with the premise of it all.
Our government, the Biden administration, screwed the pooch on this so bad that it truly is hard for me to put into words. Glad you attempted to and did a good job.
I just hope that this disaster is finally something large enough that our media can't ignore. I know it's a trope by now, but the whole , " Can you imagine if this happened under Trump..." Has never been more true. Impeachment filings would have happened at least a week ago and it would be 24/7 excoriation with literal foaming at the mouth talking heads.
I can't remember the last time I have been so disgusted.
chickencoupe16 said:aggiedent said:
2. Why did anyone believe we could ever train the Afghanistan armed forces to fight on their own when the Afghan leadership has been so week and serviceman aren't even getting paid regularly. You can't prop up weak and ineffectual governments to stand on their own. Nobody ever seems to learn historical lessons.
You can, though. South Korea is a shining example. If the US doesn't step in North Korean troops roll up the South just as quickly as this, especially if you consider it relative to the speed advantages that modern tech gives the Taliban.
Today, South Korea has a thriving economy, highly western society, and according to a Marine friend, their troops were best he worked with. As Aalan said, the Afghans needed time and support. We can argue if they deserved it or if it would have been as net positive for us, but let's not pretend that leaving like we are and not giving the ANA a heads up was destined for anything but failure.
will25u said:
I don't mean to sound rude when I say this, just that I want to get my on the ground views of the ANA.
Let me preface this by saying... I have deployed to the ME 5 times, twice to Afghanistan, and twice to Iraq.
I have a completely different view of the ANA and their willingness to do much of anything. But my last deployment to Afghanistan was in 2013. So things could have changed in the 8 years since, but I don't know that I think much has changed seeing as how the Taliban completely ran over the ANA.
In my last two deployments, I was with an Engineer Battalion and we did route clearance. Now I didn't go on many of the route clearance missions as I was not an Engineer, but I was in the TOC(Tactical Operations Center) all of the time.
First of all, Green on Blue attacks were a real thing back in 2013. So not all ANA are aligned with the US. Most I would say were genuinely *trying*, but even after years of training, and modern equipment, quite a bit of ANA were flakey at best.
If one of our RC Missions were to get blown up, they would immediately call for the QRF(Quick Reaction Force). Quite a few times, the ANA would show up and just sit there supposedly helping with a cordon, but they would be woefully inept, or mostly sitting behind the convoy on the road just waiting.
Sometimes we would have ANA RC missions, they would get blown up, and wait for the US QRF to get there to provide security.
I don't have the best view of the ANA from seeing them in real time. Maybe things changed, but I have my doubts. To me, they were not some fighting force that could think/do for themselves. They mostly always relied on the US for input before doing anything.
But could they defend their country in the event of a Chinese supported invasion from North Korea without considerable support from the U.S.? Could the Germans against Russia?chickencoupe16 said:aggiedent said:
2. Why did anyone believe we could ever train the Afghanistan armed forces to fight on their own when the Afghan leadership has been so week and serviceman aren't even getting paid regularly. You can't prop up weak and ineffectual governments to stand on their own. Nobody ever seems to learn historical lessons.
You can, though. South Korea is a shining example. If the US doesn't step in North Korean troops roll up the South just as quickly as this, especially if you consider it relative to the speed advantages that modern tech gives the Taliban.
Today, South Korea has a thriving economy, highly western society, and according to a Marine friend, their troops were best he worked with. As Aalan said, the Afghans needed time and support. We can argue if they deserved it or if it would have been as net positive for us, but let's not pretend that leaving like we are and not giving the ANA a heads up was destined for anything but failure.
bmks270 said:
After 20 years, why didn't we kill off all of the Taliban?
Eliminatus said:chickencoupe16 said:aggiedent said:
2. Why did anyone believe we could ever train the Afghanistan armed forces to fight on their own when the Afghan leadership has been so week and serviceman aren't even getting paid regularly. You can't prop up weak and ineffectual governments to stand on their own. Nobody ever seems to learn historical lessons.
You can, though. South Korea is a shining example. If the US doesn't step in North Korean troops roll up the South just as quickly as this, especially if you consider it relative to the speed advantages that modern tech gives the Taliban.
Today, South Korea has a thriving economy, highly western society, and according to a Marine friend, their troops were best he worked with. As Aalan said, the Afghans needed time and support. We can argue if they deserved it or if it would have been as net positive for us, but let's not pretend that leaving like we are and not giving the ANA a heads up was destined for anything but failure.
It's culture. It's not apples to apples. You have a hard working, industrious, and proud people to work with. Then you have the Afghans. They f'ing suck as a people that we want to have western ideals and capabilities.
Could we defend our nation in similar circumstances? It is starting to look like not. Perhaps we do need to hang together or will we hang separately.aggiehawg said:But could they defend their country in the event of a Chinese supported invasion from North Korea without considerable support from the U.S.? Could the Germans against Russia?chickencoupe16 said:aggiedent said:
2. Why did anyone believe we could ever train the Afghanistan armed forces to fight on their own when the Afghan leadership has been so week and serviceman aren't even getting paid regularly. You can't prop up weak and ineffectual governments to stand on their own. Nobody ever seems to learn historical lessons.
You can, though. South Korea is a shining example. If the US doesn't step in North Korean troops roll up the South just as quickly as this, especially if you consider it relative to the speed advantages that modern tech gives the Taliban.
Today, South Korea has a thriving economy, highly western society, and according to a Marine friend, their troops were best he worked with. As Aalan said, the Afghans needed time and support. We can argue if they deserved it or if it would have been as net positive for us, but let's not pretend that leaving like we are and not giving the ANA a heads up was destined for anything but failure.
I don't think so.
Eliminatus said:bmks270 said:
After 20 years, why didn't we kill off all of the Taliban?
We weren't allowed to. That is end all, be all from where I sit these days. It would have taken levels of warfare that America can't do to do get rid of them as a viable force and even then, that is still pretty debatable. We haven't killed cockroaches either.
I am one of those Vets that feels that the Afghans that risked their lives helping us should be removed from Afghanistan for their safety and I know others have agreed, but I don't recall anyone calling for them to be allowed in with minimal clearance. My suggestion was a third party country while they are vetted or in the states in a controlled community with constant over watch while the background checks are fully investigated.Quote:
I have now directly responded to three other vets making the point to bring all terps to the US ASAP with minimal clearance.
That's a good point.Demosthenes81 said:Could we defend our nation in similar circumstances? It is starting to look like not. Perhaps we do need to hang together or will we hang separately.aggiehawg said:But could they defend their country in the event of a Chinese supported invasion from North Korea without considerable support from the U.S.? Could the Germans against Russia?chickencoupe16 said:aggiedent said:
2. Why did anyone believe we could ever train the Afghanistan armed forces to fight on their own when the Afghan leadership has been so week and serviceman aren't even getting paid regularly. You can't prop up weak and ineffectual governments to stand on their own. Nobody ever seems to learn historical lessons.
You can, though. South Korea is a shining example. If the US doesn't step in North Korean troops roll up the South just as quickly as this, especially if you consider it relative to the speed advantages that modern tech gives the Taliban.
Today, South Korea has a thriving economy, highly western society, and according to a Marine friend, their troops were best he worked with. As Aalan said, the Afghans needed time and support. We can argue if they deserved it or if it would have been as net positive for us, but let's not pretend that leaving like we are and not giving the ANA a heads up was destined for anything but failure.
I don't think so.
bmks270 said:Eliminatus said:bmks270 said:
After 20 years, why didn't we kill off all of the Taliban?
We weren't allowed to. That is end all, be all from where I sit these days. It would have taken levels of warfare that America can't do to do get rid of them as a viable force and even then, that is still pretty debatable. We haven't killed cockroaches either.
What do you mean "not allowed to."
From a ground invasion? Yes we could defend ourselves because of air superiority. But that's right now.Demosthenes81 said:Could we defend our nation in similar circumstances? It is starting to look like not. Perhaps we do need to hang together or will we hang separately.aggiehawg said:But could they defend their country in the event of a Chinese supported invasion from North Korea without considerable support from the U.S.? Could the Germans against Russia?chickencoupe16 said:aggiedent said:
2. Why did anyone believe we could ever train the Afghanistan armed forces to fight on their own when the Afghan leadership has been so week and serviceman aren't even getting paid regularly. You can't prop up weak and ineffectual governments to stand on their own. Nobody ever seems to learn historical lessons.
You can, though. South Korea is a shining example. If the US doesn't step in North Korean troops roll up the South just as quickly as this, especially if you consider it relative to the speed advantages that modern tech gives the Taliban.
Today, South Korea has a thriving economy, highly western society, and according to a Marine friend, their troops were best he worked with. As Aalan said, the Afghans needed time and support. We can argue if they deserved it or if it would have been as net positive for us, but let's not pretend that leaving like we are and not giving the ANA a heads up was destined for anything but failure.
I don't think so.
MapGuy said:I am one of those Vets that feels that the Afghans that risked their lives helping us should be removed from Afghanistan for their safety and I know others have agreed, but I don't recall anyone calling for them to be allowed in with minimal clearance. My suggestion was a third party country while they are vetted or in the states in a controlled community with constant over watch while the background checks are fully investigated.Quote:
I have now directly responded to three other vets making the point to bring all terps to the US ASAP with minimal clearance.
Completely agree and I'd say we err on the side of caution if their background is devoid of documentation and they can't be vetted, they don't get in.CDUB98 said:
Kind of hard to vette people without any documentation.
Eliminatus said:bmks270 said:
After 20 years, why didn't we kill off all of the Taliban?
We weren't allowed to. That is end all, be all from where I sit these days. It would have taken levels of warfare that America can't do to do get rid of them as a viable force and even then, that is still pretty debatable. We haven't killed cockroaches either.
MapGuy said:I am one of those Vets that feels that the Afghans that risked their lives helping us should be removed from Afghanistan for their safety and I know others have agreed, but I don't recall anyone calling for them to be allowed in with minimal clearance. My suggestion was a third party country while they are vetted or in the states in a controlled community with constant over watch while the background checks are fully investigated.Quote:
I have now directly responded to three other vets making the point to bring all terps to the US ASAP with minimal clearance.
bmks270 said:
After 20 years, why didn't we kill off all of the Taliban?
Burdizzo said:Eliminatus said:bmks270 said:
After 20 years, why didn't we kill off all of the Taliban?
We weren't allowed to. That is end all, be all from where I sit these days. It would have taken levels of warfare that America can't do to do get rid of them as a viable force and even then, that is still pretty debatable. We haven't killed cockroaches either.
Taliban sounds like Fire Ants. Exterminating them is impossible so you figure out how to manage them and have to do regular maintenance to keep them out of your lawn.
