Thoughts of an Afghan vet

29,274 Views | 196 Replies | Last: 2 yr ago by CREAg87
agracer
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AG
The biggest problem, as has been pointed out, was what defines victory?

Democracy in the ME? Well you can't just hand that to people who've never in their history had that kind of freedom, walk away and expect them to manage it understand it let alone fight to keep it. Most of the ME is stuck in the 1200's.

It's like the poor winning the lottery. They're all broke in a few years for the same reason they were poor to begin with.
W
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"In 2020, the US military lost a grand total of just 9 soldiers for the entire year, since our role was overwhelmingly support of the Afghan National Army."

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so what number of KIA becomes a problem or concern? 19 or 29 or 39 ?

it's a slippery slope
Bird Poo
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Thank you. The OPs suggestion didn't sit well with me. I completely agree with everything you said.
bkag9824
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Pakistan's role in this situation should not be undersold. Their wildest dreams have just come true. The Taliban were able to literally reconstitute themselves and survive based on the material support provided by Pakistan.

Jokes on us since all the disparate radical groups are their pawns and strategic security assets.

Pray tell how many high level AQ/Talib/muj leaders were killed or died in Paki? You gonna tell me they didn't know where Mullah Omar was all those years? How about bin Laden? Zawihiri to this day?

The Pakis officially own Afghanistan again. As one twitter post claimed, they got a massively sweet deal from us. We pay them in untold aid each year to help the dynamics inside their own country. Instead they use those same funds to destabilize/control Afghanistan to the point we can never, ever, ever "succeed", regardless of tribal dynamics within the Afghan borders. We spend even more billions on nation building, technology, etc. inside Afghanistan. Then the Paki puppets resume control of Afghanistan once our patience and will to fight has evaporated.

Simply brilliant on their behalf.

And **** every single one of them.
lead
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What about Saudi's influence in Afghanistan? How does that play into this?
chickencoupe16
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lead said:

What about Saudi's influence in Afghanistan? How does that play into this?


I read this as Sumlin's influence...
CDUB98
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Sumlin's lost control of Afghanistan.
TxTarpon
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Want to visit Mecca?
Guess where it is.
----------------------------------
Texans make the best songwriters because they are the best liars.-Rodney Crowell

We will never give up our guns Steve, we don't care if there is a mass shooting every day of the week.
-BarronVonAwesome

A man with experience is not at the mercy of another man with an opinion.
Edwards69
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wbt5845 said:

My nephew did three tours - one Iraq, two Afghanistan - and his thoughts pretty much jive with yours.

And there will be another 9/11 - might not be for 20-30 years, but there will be. And no liberal will blame Joe Biden for it.
Au Contraire.......... At the very least you are suffering from a huge dose of "normalcy bias" (look it up)! What he means by a "9/11" is an outright invasion of our country in the very near future....months, not years.....to include ramped up cyber warfare, logistical warfare, biological warfare, terrorist warfare, and probably an EMP or two and a "Red Dawn" type of outright invasion. For those with their head out of their ass, you can see it has already started.
And one parting thought.......Biden pulled off this **** because the Chicoms told him to. They have been directly puppetering the Dems for years and this is just one more puppet move. The Russian and Chinese have not abandoned their Afghan embassies and they are working around the clock to partner with the Pakistanis and totally take over the country, inject their "Belt and Road" Policy to give them a direct overland highway to Europe.
Are you getting ****ING picture.
Ag In Ok
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AG
I'm sure chamberlain would have had an equally weak plan had he been in charge during the battle of Dunkirk.
Edwards69
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Edwards69
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Edwards69 said:

Aggieair said:

I must wholeheartedly disagree with you on several points. My background: I was in Afghanistan in 2020 when the drawdown was actually happening up until the very end of the year, also working in a strategic level position.

1. The political spin. Look, I'm more inclined to support Trump than Biden in general, but trying to imply that things would have been different if Trump had been re-elected is demonstrating selective memory at best. The Taliban never met any of the conditions of the peace deal outside of a general reduction in violence against NATO forces, and even then, we still had about a dozen NATO soldiers wounded by Taliban attacks. We were still going to leave according to the timeline regardless. Furthermore, everyone on the right is conveniently forgetting the infamous Tweet from last fall where Trump claimed he was going to have us all home by Christmas. It seems that was mainly a desperate attempt to score votes right before the election, but caused a significant panic in Afghanistan as that kind of an abrupt withdrawal would have been 10x more catastrophic than what you are watching now. I can promise you the Resolute Support leadership was constantly pushing back on pressure from the Trump admin to expedite the withdrawal, almost to the point of blatant insubordination, and ultimately ended up settling on a compromise of 2,500 troops left in country by the inauguration. We watched the ANA and ANP hemorrhage checkpoints and stretches of highway throughout 2020, and still kept drawing down. The Biden admin actually delayed the Trump timeline from May 1st to September 11th, so making this a left vs right issue is disingenuous. The biggest difference I could see now is what apparently looks like a lack of OGA presence throughout the country, though I was never privy to DoS plans under either administration. Regardless, service members I worked with at every level and nationality all agreed that the Taliban was going to take over within weeks of us leaving.

2. The primary blame for all of this rests solely on the ANA and Afghan people. Claiming we "abandoned" them after spending 20 years trying to better their country is an absolute joke. And saying they didn't have time "to even cover their flanks" is over dramatic nonsense. Trump announced in late fall 2019 that he was seeking to negotiate a peace deal with the Taliban. Then In February 2020 it was announced that we would be withdrawing everyone IAW the peace deal by May 1st 2021. With Biden's extension, GIRoA had 18 months notice this was coming. We also terminated OEF in 2015 and shifted to ORS/OFS afterwards, so the ANA has been having to operate in a lead combat role for over 5 years now. Last year when we were determining which bases to shut down and in what order, ANDSF claimed they were ready and wanted a big airbase. So we decided to give them Kandahar. And when the deadline came for enclaving the US forces into a small compound on the airfield and handing the rest of the base over, guess what? They weren't ready. So that timeline got delayed by another few months.

3. The ANA's incompetence has to be their own responsibility at some point. We did practically everything we could for them. They constantly pestered CSTC-A for more and more money when the problem was almost always their own laziness and inefficiency. I listened to a 3 star talk about how an ANA commander kept asking him for more money for uniforms and boots, only for the general to have to physically take the ANA commander to a warehouse where there were dozens upon dozens of pallets of everything he was asking that had been sitting there for YEARS untouched and undistributed by the ANA.

4. You can keep saying "But Pakistan" when it comes to the Taliban, but it is an objective fact that the ANA was overwhelmingly better trained and equipped than the Taliban. The Pakistani Air Force isn't over there conducting air strikes for the Taliban. The Taliban had a combat strength of roughly 70,000. ANDSF had over 300,000 members, not including local and national police. Those people literally just melted away the past few weeks. Now most of them are probably running around in the mob on the tarmac at HKIA. US Army doctrine states that a defending force should be able to defend a fortified position against an attacking force up to 3 times greater. And here is the ANA, with over a 3 times force advantage, surrendering BAF just a few weeks after we handed it over. And we've still been conducting air strikes this entire time in support of them.

5. Is a terrorist attack more likely now? Yes. But endless COIN wars are becoming a greater threat to national security than the terrorist attacks they are supposed to prevent. Iraq and Afghanistan have greatly sidetracked us and let China and Russia close the gap. The current US military is inadequately prepared for a LSCO fight due to being bogged down in these two conflicts for 2 decades. China and Russia have greatly modernized and are no longer the China and Russia of the 90s. We have an exponentially growing national debt where annual spending on debt interest is eclipsing that of annual defense spending, and all the money we have been shoveling into the Afghan dumpster fire could have been better spent on modernization, readiness, and retention. We must adapt and prevent terrorist attacks by more precise means rather than occupying entire countries for decades.

6. The US cannot, and should not, be the world's police/babysitter. Trump was 100% right on that. That's not being an isolationist, that's being a realist. Your implied solution was that we should just stay in Afghanistan indefinitely and never leave. Yes we are still in Korea as you mentioned. We are also still in Germany, the UK, Italy, Japan, Iraq, Kuwait, and many other places that we have occupied and never left. Where does it end? At some point you're just replaying the downfall of the Roman Empire. The force has already been spread way too thin the past decades. I can't even count how many people I've served with that have over 10 deployments or have spent almost half their career deployed. We are already facing retention and recruiting problems where those that do stay in have to pick up the slack. Soldiers are tired of having to babysit another military that would rather sit around and smoke hash than do their jobs.

You ask...."How does this end". It ends by us closing our borders...DUH,,,,it ends by establishing a fool-proof, 100% missle defense system over and around our sealed border, it ends by becoming economically self-sufficient, it ends by establishing a monetary system based on gold, it ends by destroying the FED and the entire central banking system, it ends by firing all the current politicians and starting decentralized and independent states that work together for a common defense and peaceful coexistence, and it can start anew by living by the Declaration of Independence and The Constitution as written. All that would be a good start!!
Ex-liberalag12
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aalan94 said:


I served in both Iraq (2007-8) and Afghanistan (2017-18). My position in the latter was as a strategic-level position, so I had a view of every aspect of the country, from the fight against narcotics to training of the Afghan National Army (ANA) to Taliban and ISIS-Khorasan tactics, techniques and procedures, to intelligence, surveillance and reconnaissance, basically everything.

Let me provide some context and thoughts about what I'm seeing today. First of all, as someone who gave a lot of my time, blood, sweat and tears to that country and its people, and served alongside a lot of other people like me, it sickens my stomach to see what we have done. I have never been more angry with my government in my life.

What it means:
The collapse of the Afghan government is a direct result of US policy. We betrayed them, and pulled the rug out from under them. We told them for years we had their back and we pulled out so fast they couldn't even shift their troops to cover their flanks.

The current president's action is the most incompetent military disaster in U.S. history since James Buchanan abandoned military supplies to the confederacy, thus ensuring the Civil War would break out several months later.

Trump vs. Biden
Trump, of course, made the decision, so he absolutely shares some of the blame. But there's a huge caveat to that. Trump set forth a conditions-based withdrawal with a timeline that could shift based on those conditions. After negotiations with the Taliban, who promised to stop attacking the Afghan government, we started to implement that. The Taliban began violating that agreement. When Biden took over, he did not embrace the Trump policy of conditions-testing, but kept to the timeline even advanced it blindly.

Biden spent the first days in office overturning every single policy of Trump EXCEPT THIS ONE. He had eight months to review the plans, change them, put in carrots and sticks, call the ****ing Pakistanis who fund the Taliban and hold their ****ing feet to the fire, all that ****, and he did nothing except speed up the timeline, and deceive the Afghans about the timetable so they got caught flat footed. He can't say that he inherited this and had no choice but to act like a robot and implement it when he literally undid every single other policy of Trump. Now, if he cares more about promoting transgender access to high school girl's showers than the lives of millions of people and saving the world from terrorism, THAT IS ON HIM.

Why the ANA collapsed.
A lot of pundits are saying that the Afghan military should have put up a fight. We pulled out from covering their backs so fast, they haven't even been able to train to fight without our intelligence or airpower. They literally picked up a phone one day and could get a bomb on the enemy and picked it up the next day and it rang and was never answered.
THAT is what a unilateral, non conditions-based withdrawal, advanced timeline looks like on the ground.

The Afghan fight is a tough one, and training an Afghan army that can successfully defend its country is not as easy as you think. First of all, you're dealing with a population that is 70 percent illiterate. How many Afghans can truly understand the GPS coordinates they call in for an airstrike if they don't even understand how the solar system works. Or that there IS a solar system. That's a bit of a trite answer but therein lies the truth.

My buddy who tried to teach them to shoot said they would miss and then say, "If Allah had wanted me to hit, I would have hit."

You couldn't REALLY train them until you could at least bring them into the 19th Century at least, if not the 20th or 21st. But you could train them enough to pick up a phone and say, "Commander, tell the American bird in the sky to drop a bomb on this or that hill."

And of course, the only reason they knew it was that hill or that road, or that village, is because we gave them the intelligence they needed. This is an intelligence architecture that is 100 years in the making, with traditions that go back to the Battle of Midway. You certainly couldn't just teach that to an illiterate peasant and let him take over that role.

But, you might say, the Taliban fights fine without technology and intel, etc. First of all, bull***** There is this little country with a green flag and a crescent on it that hates India that is providing them all the intelligence and logisitical support they need. Get over this myth that the Taliban is just a bunch of rednecks on motorcycles. At the end of the day, they're backed by a nuclear-weapon-owning country.

Secondly, there is a huge difference between offense and defense. If you defend a checkpoint, you have to be at the checkpoint. If you're attacking, you can pick any one of 10 checkpoints to hit. Also, if you're the Taliban, you can get the countryside to "support" you by all sorts of murder, intimidation, brutality, torture, etc. that the government cannot do. Keep in mind that the 1997-2003 Taliban burned the opium crops and cut the hands off opium farmers. They were defeated. The 2012-2021 Taliban allows, encourages, participates in and profits from opium production. That is also a HUGE reason why they are more able to move around the countryside. Having that mobility gives them great advantages over the ANA.

You sit in your comfy chair and say, well, if the Afghan Army were real men, they'd stand and fight. Bull***** When you have the power of American intel and American airstrikes, and you can wipe out any Taliban attack, you stand and fight. When that is pulled out from under you, not just over time, but in a heartbeat, you don't stand and fight.

When the Taliban calls on the radio, reads off your roster from a captured document and talks about how they're going to kill your son and rape your daughter in X village, you don't stand and fight. When they cut the road and the ANA doesn't have food or medivac, they can't stand and fight. Wars are won by logistics, not bullets.

The army can't stand in little Alamos all over the country. Without airstrikes, ambulances, or even resupply of food, that all breaks down. Ghani's government was weak and even if he wanted to stand, they simply didn't have the capacity to respond quickly enough to this.

It's really complex, and of course there's so much **** I know and can't tell you, but suffice it to say, with us having their backs, the ANA would do it. Without us, they couldn't.

Policy has consequences.
There are people who are my friends, who have been condemned, possibly to death, by Joe Biden and his reckless pullout of Afghanistan. Just to give you one example: Mohammed, a rug merchant who sold his wares on our base. I became good friends with him after I bought a rug or two. I only paid $20 for the first one, but that was enough to send his daughter to school for a year. I bought a few more. He used to light up when I walked in. "You are my special friend." Yeah, all the guys say that, but Mohammed was sincere. We talked about our families and after I told him I had a young son, he said, "a son is the greatest gift a man can ever have." He gave me an elaborate, hand-sewn Afghan tribal hat with geometric patterns, etc. for my son. I tried to pay him and he refused. I said, well, can I get your son a cowboy hat when I'm back in Texas? He said no, he couldn't wear it, the Taliban would kill him. So I gave him a package of pecans from our family farm instead. He could eat those in secret.

The media frames this as just a few translators or specialists. No, the Taliban historically could kill ANYBODY who worked with the United States in any capacity, whether they swept the floors of my barracks, cooked the meals I ate, worked on a US base as a barber or a rug merchant, it doesn't matter.

The Taliban have been taking their names down for years, and no doubt these people are all on lists already. Ignore the Taliban spokesmen who say that they will not conduct reprisals. His statements are as false as the Iraqi information minister. A wave of slaughter will engulf the nation. These good people, their families, and thousands of others across that nation, will be endangered.

"But we couldn't stay there forever"
For all of the isolationists, who were repeating the endless trope that Afghanistan was horribly bloody and expensive for America, and we couldn't sustain it forever...

We were successfully holding back the best-funded insurgency in the history of the world with 10,000 American and 10,000 NATO troops who weren't even doing actual fighting, they were just backing up the Afghans. 20,000 troops. That is it. That is 1/5 the seating capacity of Kyle Field.

In 2020, the US military lost a grand total of just 9 soldiers for the entire year, since our role was overwhelmingly support of the Afghan National Army. We lose more soldiers than that a month due to drunk driving. In terms of cost, it was less ($45 billion) than the budget of the US federal Department of Education, which doesn't have a single school or directly educate a single child.

$45 billion and 20,000 troops was a damn small price to pay to keep our boot on the neck of the snake. Keep in mind, that's FEWER than the 28,000 troops we keep in South Korea SEVENTY YEARS after that war ended.


Broader implications.
If anyone who thinks this is just about Afghanistan, think again. NO NATION IN THE WORLD would consider allying with the United States now after we betrayed the Afghan people. So you can put the Philippines in the Chinese orbit already, ditto Indonesia. Putin can probably absorb more former Soviet states into his.

Terrorism
THERE WILL BE ANOTHER 9/11.
Resign yourself to it. Afghanistan was home to 29 of the 32 Violent Extremist Organizations worldwide. There are thousands of Muslim refugees all throughout Europe, all of whom have families back in the old country who are subject to manipulation. Don't buy this "oh well, they're isolated" bull****, because as long as the Pakistani string pullers care, they will not be.

So just accept the fact that Americans will die as a result. And when it comes down to it, it will be a hell of a lot more than 9 per year.



Good points. I agree how the withdrawal happened is completely on Biden and he should be held responsible, which is happening. I am curious to get your thoughts on do you feel we should never leave Afghanistan? Or what is the best course in your opinion long-term. I actually agree with Trump setting a withdrawal date.

Thanks for your service...
chickencoupe16
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AG
Is it really necessary to quote the OP?
CanyonAg77
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chickencoupe16 said:

Is it really necessary to quote the OP?
No kidding
deadelephant98
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I don't know how to blue star a post on TexAgs more than once.

I have so much respect for you sir and thank you for posting.
jsb529
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Thank you for taking the time to write, but most of all - thank you for your service.
austagg99
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Gut wrenching to read. Thanks for the post OP. Makes me want to throw up to think that Bin Laden may have ultimately been right when he said we were a paper tiger. Thanks for your service and all those who stood up to them.
Stupid@17
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Im quite concerned at the estimates of over 1k american citizens, possibly more than 5k still there.

Getting them out will get dicey.
titan
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S
Stupid@17 said:

Im quite concerned at the estimates of over 1k american citizens, possibly more than 5k still there.

Getting them out will get dicey.
There is no excuse for that from a real `great power' let alone a "super-power".

Fire anyone who even thinks of social topics in the Pentagon, let alone Marxist CRT like Milley, and put a fire-breather in charge.

Then give a point blank ultimatum. Every American will be allowed to leave freely and in orderly manner or the war will resume, using weapons and means not previously tapped as need be.
Ulysses90
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AG
W said:

"In 2020, the US military lost a grand total of just 9 soldiers for the entire year, since our role was overwhelmingly support of the Afghan National Army."

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so what number of KIA becomes a problem or concern? 19 or 29 or 39 ?

it's a slippery slope



There's a fair parallel to be drawn with the risk for cops who get killed in the line of duty. I offer that the US militany mission was effectively a police force sent to the other side of the world to prevent terrorists from having a base of operations to launch attacks on the US. The years of heavier bloodshed had dropped to 9 by 2020.

Is 9 deaths per year for that mission worth it? That's a matter of opinion but after 20 years in Afghanistan the total number of deaths of military personnel was comparable to the number of civilians killed on 9/11. How much sooner will the next 9/11 happen because of the collapse of Afghanistan?

Nine deaths in Afghaniatan in 2020 is tragic but consider that on July 30, 2020 eight Marines and a Navy Corpsman drowned during a training exercise because every echelon of leadership in their chain of command from the rank of Corporal to LtGen failed in both procedures and judgment that amounts to a mind boggling level of incompetence. As many servicemen died due to leadership failure in a single day as died in Afghanistan that same year. Yet, a consciousness decision was made to let Afghanistan collapse while in the case of the drownings nobody was even charged at court martial for dereliction of duty.
titan
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S

There is a better argument than trying to say if 9 is worth it.

It is a volunteer force, the framework of mission and purpose are known. If you don't believe in it, don't join it. None of the 9 were forced to take that risk as far as known.

Once that is granted, then it simply becomes a matter of it is not really much the business-- especially of the disconnected press -- what they are doing to further some of those security aims. Again, IF they believe in the mission. So its actually more important to make sure you don't have political generals like Milley potentially wasting their service or going down directions of no relevance at all to serve a party.

Most military if you talk to them very much dislike having to do what Patton called "paying for the same thing twice" -- they would prefer to be allowed to perform their mission.

Another thing is all this arbitrary time limit stuff. Again, its a volunteer service. What does it matter to one not involved if something is being done now that was being done 17 years ago? Its arguably not a great deal of their business. Let those who know the situation there and are willing to deal with it have the first say. They certainly did not here.
titan
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S
W said:

"In 2020, the US military lost a grand total of just 9 soldiers for the entire year, since our role was overwhelmingly support of the Afghan National Army."

-----
so what number of KIA becomes a problem or concern? 19 or 29 or 39 ?

it's a slippery slope

Its not a slippery slope if it is not a conscript army. And let them make the call, not an uninvolved entity.
rab79
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AG
another perspective from a veteran....

https://www.americanpartisan.org/2021/08/the-pashtun-a-commentary-by-nc-scout/

His conclusion.
Quote:

When I am asked what I feel regarding Afghanistan, as is often the case in recent weeks having fought there, given its current state and the many friends I've lost over the years, I can only state quite flatly; I am proud to have graduated from the greatest combat training course on earth. And now what of those same failures who've declared war on you and I.
NO AMNESTY!

in order for democrats, liberals, progressives et al to continue their illogical belief systems they have to pretend not to know a lot of things; by pretending "not to know" there is no guilt, no actual connection to conscience. Denial of truth allows easier trespass.
rab79
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Stupid@17 said:

Im quite concerned at the estimates of over 1k american citizens, possibly more than 5k still there.

Getting them out will get dicey.
saw one estimate of 10k+ still there.
NO AMNESTY!

in order for democrats, liberals, progressives et al to continue their illogical belief systems they have to pretend not to know a lot of things; by pretending "not to know" there is no guilt, no actual connection to conscience. Denial of truth allows easier trespass.
titan
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S

That's certainly correct about the present policy makers.
rab79
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titan said:

Stupid@17 said:

Im quite concerned at the estimates of over 1k american citizens, possibly more than 5k still there.

Getting them out will get dicey.
There is no excuse for that from a real `great power' let alone a "super-power".

Fire anyone who even thinks of social topics in the Pentagon, let alone Marxist CRT like Milley, and put a fire-breather in charge.

Then give a point blank ultimatum. Every American will be allowed to leave freely and in orderly manner or the war will resume, using weapons and means not previously tapped as need be.
And do you really think that is possible under this administration?
NO AMNESTY!

in order for democrats, liberals, progressives et al to continue their illogical belief systems they have to pretend not to know a lot of things; by pretending "not to know" there is no guilt, no actual connection to conscience. Denial of truth allows easier trespass.
titan
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S
rab79 said:

titan said:

Stupid@17 said:

Im quite concerned at the estimates of over 1k american citizens, possibly more than 5k still there.

Getting them out will get dicey.
There is no excuse for that from a real `great power' let alone a "super-power".

Fire anyone who even thinks of social topics in the Pentagon, let alone Marxist CRT like Milley, and put a fire-breather in charge.

Then give a point blank ultimatum. Every American will be allowed to leave freely and in orderly manner or the war will resume, using weapons and means not previously tapped as need be.
And do you really think that is possible under this administration?
No, but this is the kind of national rage that can sometimes make it possible. If it goes correct. What we may see, and should push for, is a complete expunging of sjw and crt oriented thought of any kind from the Pentagon as the price of this debacle.
Stat Monitor Repairman
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I think everyone involved over the years is feeling something.

VA sent out an email to folks. They must have seen an uptick.

This is gonna hit a lot of people hard, and probably have at least some affect on anyone who was involved.

If you got some people that you haven't heard from in a while, probably a good idea to get in contact.
ObiMatt87
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No matter where your views sit on the opinion scale, this is a sad time for the Afghan people, and I don't believe anyone can honestly say this is going to be a change for the better.

From my perspective, the OP's comments do a good job of capturing many of the salient points noted by those of us who actually served boots on the ground in that part of the world. I fully understand and respect the differing views of this very complex situation and all of the contributing factors that have brought us to this point. There definitely is not a one-size-fits-all solution here.

For perspective, I served two tours in Iraq (2003, Tallil Air Base, at the outset of Gulf War II, 2009-10 as an Air Advisor to the Iraqi AF/A7 and Iraqi Air Force Academy Commandant in Baghdad for a 365), and one in Afghanistan (2011-2012, Camp Eggers, Kabul, Afghan Senior Leader Protection initiative, working to mitigate assassinations while advising the MOI Counter-terrorism director and Afghan National Police Academy commander).

There are common threads to both conflicts and the nations in question, along with vast differences. The Iraqi people, as a whole, are significantly more educated, previously had a large standing military presence (including a fairly robust air force) that included some modern hardware along with a lot of older equipment , and had a decent infrastructure. It also had oil for income. The country operated under a dictatorship, to be sure, but as a whole functioned.

Afghanistan, on the other hand, is much less educated as a whole, had minimal military capability and the training to go with it, and the infrastructure outside of Kabul was decades behind on the whole. It has huge natural resources, but the infrastructure to get to it all and move it does not exist and is highly vulnerable to attack by any and and all. There is no steady source of income, other than perhaps drugs. You also still see oxen-pulled carts with solid wooden wheels rolling down the streets of Kabul as a normal conveyance...

Regardless of the starting points, my time with the people of both nations drove home these points for me:

- The US, and a select handful of other nations, truly tried hard to help each nation. Cultural differences to problem-solving definitely made the work challenging, but literally hundreds of thousands of men and women have worked extremely hard the last 20 years to make things better. It is very sad to see much, if not all of that work thrown away or destroyed.

- This area of the world has been fighting literally since the dawn of man. Until all the regional nations can somehow work out their differences and establish lasting peace, it is unlikely that any outside influence will make a lasting difference.

- There are so many competing nations and strategies at work in the region it makes your head explode. US, China, Russia, Iran, Pakistan, India, Turkey, Saudi Arabia, Europe--you name it. Proxy wars and long-term moves on the geopolitical chess board often have left much damage in their wake despite often well-meaning beginnings. Others have solely focused on draining the other guy's national treasure and keeping his attention split while making major moves elsewhere. Looking at you, China and Russia...

- The younger generations are excited for the future and wanted to embrace ideas and technology that can bring their countries into the present, but are routinely held back by the cultural (and tribal) norms of age/legacy over drive/ability/performance. I think the most concrete example I saw of this was the internal Iraqi government fight over who would be in the first cadre of pilots to travel to the United States to learn how to fly their newly-ordered F-16s. It takes years to train a pilot to more than basic capability and the younger pilots who were learning to fly at pilot training in the US had excellent English skills, were eager to learn, embraced and adapted to modern technology, and picked up on concepts significantly faster than the legacy, Soviet-trained pilots from the Saddam era when they flew aircraft several generations older. At first there was a complete unwillingness to send any young pilots, but eventually, with a lot of US coaxing, the first group was a mix of young and old. It was very entertaining, but also incredibly frustrating as the months drug on without a decision...

- Corruption is a cultural norm. To get anything done of significance it was always, "You scratch my back, I'll scratch yours." That was incredibly frustrating on so many levels, but it is a reality for the majority of the developing world. Without law and order and some code of ethics to establish as a baseline and work from it will continue to be this way and whomever is in power at the moment will always be squirreling away funds in foreign banks and buying houses in other nations to go to when it all comes down around them. Change takes sincere leadership, a vision for the nation, and the support for that leadership by the people. Tough to find anyone like that, right, Ghani?

- We operate by the rule of law. They don't. When the bad guys don't follow rules and it's an anything goes affair, the good guys are at a disadvantage right out the gate. Afghanistan is the Wild Wild West outside of Kabul. Yes, there have been occasional slip-ups with terrible consequences in past conflicts, but as a whole the US operates within rules and that should not change. The Taliban and their ilk do not. It will be interesting to see how China operates when it gets its shot...

- The majority of the people are decent and just want safety and stability for their families. As we are seeing played out live once again, it is the masses who pay the price in such conflicts. I particularly feel for the women and children. There is a whole generation of women who grew up in Afghanistan out from under the Taliban after the invasion. It is going to be terrible for them. There is no doubt that some of those trapped in Afghanistan and who actually survive the Taliban takeover will be converted to the cause and taught to hate the infidels who until recently were trying to help their country stand on its own two feet.

- There is no simple solution. We all have our opinions on different aspects of how Afghanistan and other conflicts have been handled, but the truth is the answers are extremely complex and intertwined. This is exactly why places such as Afghanistan have seen the Mongols, Sikhs, British, Soviets, US/NATO, and others come and go. All they have to do is just wait us out...

What a mess.
stoneyjr78
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AG
Mohammed, the rug seller, the OP's friend, must either be scared to death and hoping everyone forgets he sold rugs to US personnel or perhaps he already sold all the personal information on US personnel and others he gleaned from his friendly conversations about family during rug sales, especially since the OP described how Taliban uses family information to coerce cooperation. If it's the former and if the Taliban and extremist groups really do check social media for information as the military warns us all about then he now has a big Taliban target on his back for not only having worked with US personnel but also having valuable information the Taliban can use to threaten or coerce US personnel. OPSEC. Operational security.
hut-ho78
pagerman @ work
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AG
Quote:

NO NATION IN THE WORLD would consider allying with the United States now after we betrayed the Afghan people. So you can put the Philippines in the Chinese orbit already, ditto Indonesia. Putin can probably absorb more former Soviet states into his.
While I agree with pretty much everything else in your excellent post, this I can't get on board with.

There are a litany of time that the US has left its alleged "strong allies" hanging in the breeze, this is just one more example. Yet countries and people have and will continue to ally with the US and for several good reasons:

1. We are willing to throw around money (and saw the number $78 trillion yesterday in terms of what we spent in Afghanistan in the last 20 years) like a drunken sailor and we will do it for literally decades. People like to tell themselves that they look and plan for the long term but when Uncle Sugar shows up with a literal pile of cash and is willing to start throwing it around, it's pretty difficult for most people to worry about tomorrow, tomorrow.

2. We may be untrustworthy partners, but we are way more trustworthy than the alternatives. Our betrayals are more like (but certainly not exclusively) the bumbling idiot kind where as China and Russia have planned on betrayal before they start. It's a feature not a bug of how they operate. Does anyone really think that the plan at any point for getting out of Afghanistan was what is happening now? It took a bumbling idiot, mentally incapacitated old fool and his feckless fellow travelers to effect this goat rope and they managed to pull it off in less than 8 months!
“Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy. It's inherent virtue is the equal sharing of miseries." - Winston Churchill
jimscott85
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AG
I've never served, so I can't speak in detail to the extent of the OP and others. But this situation frightens the hell out of me.

  • While the Taliban population has been ravaged over the last 4 years, it's still several times larger than it was during the lead up to 9/11.
  • With China and Russia in the mix, though they would of course never admit it, their support system is significantly greater than it ever was before.
  • Whether we pulled the rug or the Afghan forces were simply unwilling to fight, the lack of resistance gives the Taliban a comfortable position to expand, train and plan. Moreover, the apparent corruption within the ranks of Afghan personnel paints a grim picture for any change in the near future.

3,000 lives were lost on 9/11 along with the countless injured. We've lost an estimated 2,500 additional troops in Afghanistan since (I think). I'd never suggest that x lives lost is worth y lives saved. I could never be in that position. But you can be absolutely CERTAIN of this, if these monsters could repeat 9/11, the would do it at the cost of multiples of their own "forces." THAT is the frightening part. While we grieve over the losses, they will celebrate theirs so long as there is "death to America."
richardag
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jimscott85 said:

I've never served, so I can't speak in detail to the extent of the OP and others. But this situation frightens the hell out of me.

  • While the Taliban population has been ravaged over the last 4 years, it's still several times larger than it was during the lead up to 9/11.
  • With China and Russia in the mix, though they would of course never admit it, their support system is significantly greater than it ever was before.
  • Whether we pulled the rug or the Afghan forces were simply unwilling to fight, the lack of resistance gives the Taliban a comfortable position to expand, train and plan. Moreover, the apparent corruption within the ranks of Afghan personnel paints a grim picture for any change in the near future.

3,000 lives were lost on 9/11 along with the countless injured. We've lost an estimated 2,500 additional troops in Afghanistan since (I think). I'd never suggest that x lives lost is worth y lives saved. I could never be in that position. But you can be absolutely CERTAIN of this, if these monsters could repeat 9/11, the would do it at the cost of multiples of their own "forces." THAT is the frightening part. While we grieve over the losses, they will celebrate theirs so long as there is "death to America."
"While we grieve over the losses, they will celebrate theirs so long as there is "death to America."

"Death to America" is the singular constant heard from all Islamic fundamentalists; ISIS, Taliban, Al Qaeda, etc. the Democratic Party leadership, leftist progressives, legacy media and many Republicans just can't let this sink in.

When dealing with these groups we should always know their ultimate goal.
Among the latter, under pretence of governing they have divided their nations into two classes, wolves and sheep.”
Thomas Jefferson, Letter to Edward Carrington, January 16, 1787
Savrola
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Quote:

While the Taliban population has been ravaged over the last 4 years, it's still several times larger than it was during the lead up to 9/11.

Keep in mind that the Taliban before 9/11 never controlled all of Afghanistan. They were fighting their own never-ending civil war with the Northern Alliance.

The Taliban today now owns ALL of the country. So the next Osama doesn't have to spend half his time trying to assassinate their rival, he can focus on exporting terror.
 
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