Thoughts of an Afghan vet

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cbr
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lead said:

Quote:

Broader implications.
If anyone who thinks this is just about Afghanistan, think again. NO NATION IN THE WORLD would consider allying with the United States now after we betrayed the Afghan people. So you can put the Philippines in the Chinese orbit already, ditto Indonesia. Putin can probably absorb more former Soviet states into his.


Surely you don't believe such an absolute statement.


No leadership is going to trust their lives to a us allegiance. Georgia, iraq, afghanistan, the khurds, vietnam and more all cement the fact that the us is under anti american control at worst, or at beat if someone starts acting in the us' best interests they get voted out after 4 years max.

The us is a proven worthless ally. We're worse than italy in ww2. We will get you in the ****, and then dump the rest on you when we bug out.





TheEternalPessimist
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aalan94 said:


I served in both Iraq (2007-8) and Afghanistan (2017-18). My position in the latter was as a strategic-level position, so I had a view of every aspect of the country, from the fight against narcotics to training of the Afghan National Army (ANA) to Taliban and ISIS-Khorasan tactics, techniques and procedures, to intelligence, surveillance and reconnaissance, basically everything.

Let me provide some context and thoughts about what I'm seeing today. First of all, as someone who gave a lot of my time, blood, sweat and tears to that country and its people, and served alongside a lot of other people like me, it sickens my stomach to see what we have done. I have never been more angry with my government in my life.

What it means:
The collapse of the Afghan government is a direct result of US policy. We betrayed them, and pulled the rug out from under them. We told them for years we had their back and we pulled out so fast they couldn't even shift their troops to cover their flanks.

The current president's action is the most incompetent military disaster in U.S. history since James Buchanan abandoned military supplies to the confederacy, thus ensuring the Civil War would break out several months later.

Trump vs. Biden
Trump, of course, made the decision, so he absolutely shares some of the blame. But there's a huge caveat to that. Trump set forth a conditions-based withdrawal with a timeline that could shift based on those conditions. After negotiations with the Taliban, who promised to stop attacking the Afghan government, we started to implement that. The Taliban began violating that agreement. When Biden took over, he did not embrace the Trump policy of conditions-testing, but kept to the timeline even advanced it blindly.

Biden spent the first days in office overturning every single policy of Trump EXCEPT THIS ONE. He had eight months to review the plans, change them, put in carrots and sticks, call the ****ing Pakistanis who fund the Taliban and hold their ****ing feet to the fire, all that ****, and he did nothing except speed up the timeline, and deceive the Afghans about the timetable so they got caught flat footed. He can't say that he inherited this and had no choice but to act like a robot and implement it when he literally undid every single other policy of Trump. Now, if he cares more about promoting transgender access to high school girl's showers than the lives of millions of people and saving the world from terrorism, THAT IS ON HIM.

Why the ANA collapsed.
A lot of pundits are saying that the Afghan military should have put up a fight. We pulled out from covering their backs so fast, they haven't even been able to train to fight without our intelligence or airpower. They literally picked up a phone one day and could get a bomb on the enemy and picked it up the next day and it rang and was never answered.
THAT is what a unilateral, non conditions-based withdrawal, advanced timeline looks like on the ground.

The Afghan fight is a tough one, and training an Afghan army that can successfully defend its country is not as easy as you think. First of all, you're dealing with a population that is 70 percent illiterate. How many Afghans can truly understand the GPS coordinates they call in for an airstrike if they don't even understand how the solar system works. Or that there IS a solar system. That's a bit of a trite answer but therein lies the truth.

My buddy who tried to teach them to shoot said they would miss and then say, "If Allah had wanted me to hit, I would have hit."

You couldn't REALLY train them until you could at least bring them into the 19th Century at least, if not the 20th or 21st. But you could train them enough to pick up a phone and say, "Commander, tell the American bird in the sky to drop a bomb on this or that hill."

And of course, the only reason they knew it was that hill or that road, or that village, is because we gave them the intelligence they needed. This is an intelligence architecture that is 100 years in the making, with traditions that go back to the Battle of Midway. You certainly couldn't just teach that to an illiterate peasant and let him take over that role.

But, you might say, the Taliban fights fine without technology and intel, etc. First of all, bull***** There is this little country with a green flag and a crescent on it that hates India that is providing them all the intelligence and logisitical support they need. Get over this myth that the Taliban is just a bunch of rednecks on motorcycles. At the end of the day, they're backed by a nuclear-weapon-owning country.

Secondly, there is a huge difference between offense and defense. If you defend a checkpoint, you have to be at the checkpoint. If you're attacking, you can pick any one of 10 checkpoints to hit. Also, if you're the Taliban, you can get the countryside to "support" you by all sorts of murder, intimidation, brutality, torture, etc. that the government cannot do. Keep in mind that the 1997-2003 Taliban burned the opium crops and cut the hands off opium farmers. They were defeated. The 2012-2021 Taliban allows, encourages, participates in and profits from opium production. That is also a HUGE reason why they are more able to move around the countryside. Having that mobility gives them great advantages over the ANA.

You sit in your comfy chair and say, well, if the Afghan Army were real men, they'd stand and fight. Bull***** When you have the power of American intel and American airstrikes, and you can wipe out any Taliban attack, you stand and fight. When that is pulled out from under you, not just over time, but in a heartbeat, you don't stand and fight.

When the Taliban calls on the radio, reads off your roster from a captured document and talks about how they're going to kill your son and rape your daughter in X village, you don't stand and fight. When they cut the road and the ANA doesn't have food or medivac, they can't stand and fight. Wars are won by logistics, not bullets.

The army can't stand in little Alamos all over the country. Without airstrikes, ambulances, or even resupply of food, that all breaks down. Ghani's government was weak and even if he wanted to stand, they simply didn't have the capacity to respond quickly enough to this.

It's really complex, and of course there's so much **** I know and can't tell you, but suffice it to say, with us having their backs, the ANA would do it. Without us, they couldn't.

Policy has consequences.
There are people who are my friends, who have been condemned, possibly to death, by Joe Biden and his reckless pullout of Afghanistan. Just to give you one example: Mohammed, a rug merchant who sold his wares on our base. I became good friends with him after I bought a rug or two. I only paid $20 for the first one, but that was enough to send his daughter to school for a year. I bought a few more. He used to light up when I walked in. "You are my special friend." Yeah, all the guys say that, but Mohammed was sincere. We talked about our families and after I told him I had a young son, he said, "a son is the greatest gift a man can ever have." He gave me an elaborate, hand-sewn Afghan tribal hat with geometric patterns, etc. for my son. I tried to pay him and he refused. I said, well, can I get your son a cowboy hat when I'm back in Texas? He said no, he couldn't wear it, the Taliban would kill him. So I gave him a package of pecans from our family farm instead. He could eat those in secret.

The media frames this as just a few translators or specialists. No, the Taliban historically could kill ANYBODY who worked with the United States in any capacity, whether they swept the floors of my barracks, cooked the meals I ate, worked on a US base as a barber or a rug merchant, it doesn't matter.

The Taliban have been taking their names down for years, and no doubt these people are all on lists already. Ignore the Taliban spokesmen who say that they will not conduct reprisals. His statements are as false as the Iraqi information minister. A wave of slaughter will engulf the nation. These good people, their families, and thousands of others across that nation, will be endangered.

"But we couldn't stay there forever"
For all of the isolationists, who were repeating the endless trope that Afghanistan was horribly bloody and expensive for America, and we couldn't sustain it forever...

We were successfully holding back the best-funded insurgency in the history of the world with 10,000 American and 10,000 NATO troops who weren't even doing actual fighting, they were just backing up the Afghans. 20,000 troops. That is it. That is 1/5 the seating capacity of Kyle Field.

In 2020, the US military lost a grand total of just 9 soldiers for the entire year, since our role was overwhelmingly support of the Afghan National Army. We lose more soldiers than that a month due to drunk driving. In terms of cost, it was less ($45 billion) than the budget of the US federal Department of Education, which doesn't have a single school or directly educate a single child.

$45 billion and 20,000 troops was a damn small price to pay to keep our boot on the neck of the snake. Keep in mind, that's FEWER than the 28,000 troops we keep in South Korea SEVENTY YEARS after that war ended.


Broader implications.
If anyone who thinks this is just about Afghanistan, think again. NO NATION IN THE WORLD would consider allying with the United States now after we betrayed the Afghan people. So you can put the Philippines in the Chinese orbit already, ditto Indonesia. Putin can probably absorb more former Soviet states into his.

Terrorism
THERE WILL BE ANOTHER 9/11.
Resign yourself to it. Afghanistan was home to 29 of the 32 Violent Extremist Organizations worldwide. There are thousands of Muslim refugees all throughout Europe, all of whom have families back in the old country who are subject to manipulation. Don't buy this "oh well, they're isolated" bull****, because as long as the Pakistani string pullers care, they will not be.

So just accept the fact that Americans will die as a result. And when it comes down to it, it will be a hell of a lot more than 9 per year.

I would not cry if the military overthrew our feckless, cowardly, overgrown, oppressive, illegitimate, rule of law ignoring government...... and started over with a NEW convention of states. The tree needs to be rattled..... badly.

I might get the ban hammer for this. So be it.
91AggieLawyer
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AG
This needs to be pinned to the top.
New Boot Goofin
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Thank you for your service and this analysis, aalan94. Eye opening.

Libs and CMs can all F off.
Aggieair
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I must wholeheartedly disagree with you on several points. My background: I was in Afghanistan in 2020 when the drawdown was actually happening up until the very end of the year, also working in a strategic level position.

1. The political spin. Look, I'm more inclined to support Trump than Biden in general, but trying to imply that things would have been different if Trump had been re-elected is demonstrating selective memory at best. The Taliban never met any of the conditions of the peace deal outside of a general reduction in violence against NATO forces, and even then, we still had about a dozen NATO soldiers wounded by Taliban attacks. We were still going to leave according to the timeline regardless. Furthermore, everyone on the right is conveniently forgetting the infamous Tweet from last fall where Trump claimed he was going to have us all home by Christmas. It seems that was mainly a desperate attempt to score votes right before the election, but caused a significant panic in Afghanistan as that kind of an abrupt withdrawal would have been 10x more catastrophic than what you are watching now. I can promise you the Resolute Support leadership was constantly pushing back on pressure from the Trump admin to expedite the withdrawal, almost to the point of blatant insubordination, and ultimately ended up settling on a compromise of 2,500 troops left in country by the inauguration. We watched the ANA and ANP hemorrhage checkpoints and stretches of highway throughout 2020, and still kept drawing down. The Biden admin actually delayed the Trump timeline from May 1st to September 11th, so making this a left vs right issue is disingenuous. The biggest difference I could see now is what apparently looks like a lack of OGA presence throughout the country, though I was never privy to DoS plans under either administration. Regardless, service members I worked with at every level and nationality all agreed that the Taliban was going to take over within weeks of us leaving.

2. The primary blame for all of this rests solely on the ANA and Afghan people. Claiming we "abandoned" them after spending 20 years trying to better their country is an absolute joke. And saying they didn't have time "to even cover their flanks" is over dramatic nonsense. Trump announced in late fall 2019 that he was seeking to negotiate a peace deal with the Taliban. Then In February 2020 it was announced that we would be withdrawing everyone IAW the peace deal by May 1st 2021. With Biden's extension, GIRoA had 18 months notice this was coming. We also terminated OEF in 2015 and shifted to ORS/OFS afterwards, so the ANA has been having to operate in a lead combat role for over 5 years now. Last year when we were determining which bases to shut down and in what order, ANDSF claimed they were ready and wanted a big airbase. So we decided to give them Kandahar. And when the deadline came for enclaving the US forces into a small compound on the airfield and handing the rest of the base over, guess what? They weren't ready. So that timeline got delayed by another few months.

3. The ANA's incompetence has to be their own responsibility at some point. We did practically everything we could for them. They constantly pestered CSTC-A for more and more money when the problem was almost always their own laziness and inefficiency. I listened to a 3 star talk about how an ANA commander kept asking him for more money for uniforms and boots, only for the general to have to physically take the ANA commander to a warehouse where there were dozens upon dozens of pallets of everything he was asking that had been sitting there for YEARS untouched and undistributed by the ANA.

4. You can keep saying "But Pakistan" when it comes to the Taliban, but it is an objective fact that the ANA was overwhelmingly better trained and equipped than the Taliban. The Pakistani Air Force isn't over there conducting air strikes for the Taliban. The Taliban had a combat strength of roughly 70,000. ANDSF had over 300,000 members, not including local and national police. Those people literally just melted away the past few weeks. Now most of them are probably running around in the mob on the tarmac at HKIA. US Army doctrine states that a defending force should be able to defend a fortified position against an attacking force up to 3 times greater. And here is the ANA, with over a 3 times force advantage, surrendering BAF just a few weeks after we handed it over. And we've still been conducting air strikes this entire time in support of them.

5. Is a terrorist attack more likely now? Yes. But endless COIN wars are becoming a greater threat to national security than the terrorist attacks they are supposed to prevent. Iraq and Afghanistan have greatly sidetracked us and let China and Russia close the gap. The current US military is inadequately prepared for a LSCO fight due to being bogged down in these two conflicts for 2 decades. China and Russia have greatly modernized and are no longer the China and Russia of the 90s. We have an exponentially growing national debt where annual spending on debt interest is eclipsing that of annual defense spending, and all the money we have been shoveling into the Afghan dumpster fire could have been better spent on modernization, readiness, and retention. We must adapt and prevent terrorist attacks by more precise means rather than occupying entire countries for decades.

6. The US cannot, and should not, be the world's police/babysitter. Trump was 100% right on that. That's not being an isolationist, that's being a realist. Your implied solution was that we should just stay in Afghanistan indefinitely and never leave. Yes we are still in Korea as you mentioned. We are also still in Germany, the UK, Italy, Japan, Iraq, Kuwait, and many other places that we have occupied and never left. Where does it end? At some point you're just replaying the downfall of the Roman Empire. The force has already been spread way too thin the past decades. I can't even count how many people I've served with that have over 10 deployments or have spent almost half their career deployed. We are already facing retention and recruiting problems where those that do stay in have to pick up the slack. Soldiers are tired of having to babysit another military that would rather sit around and smoke hash than do their jobs.
FTACo88-FDT24dad
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aggiedent said:

Of all the things in my post, you cherry pick that point? OK. You're right, not a lot of deaths. Which would be acceptable if we were actually achieving something important.

We were not. All those years there. All the influx of money, arms, and training; and the government and armed services folded like a cheap deck of cards.

The withdrawal was inept and Biden should have his feet to the fire for the mess he caused. That said, another 20 or even 50 years there would not have changed anything.


except perhaps preventing another 9/11 or worse.
titan
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S

You are a bit late. Its a fool that trusts us since Obama's betrayal of Libya. They even carried out and agreed to non-proliferation, only for Obama to prove in his `Arab Spring' they probably needed the weapon to stay secure.

And you could cite the Kurds too. But they probably had a better idea of the limits -- the arrangement had not made as many promises. The U.S.is a terrible ally to count on because the CinC is the President rather than a post that continues stable over a longer period and is not subject to the constant political turns of uninformed voters. So the policy can't be coherent either -- its always reactive in mode.
WhoopN06
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Pumpkinhead said:

Eliminatus said:

Great writeup. I can contest a few points but overall hard agree with the premise of it all.

Our government, the Biden administration, screwed the pooch on this so bad that it truly is hard for me to put into words. Glad you attempted to and did a good job.

I just hope that this disaster is finally something large enough that our media can't ignore. I know it's a trope by now, but the whole , " Can you imagine if this happened under Trump..." Has never been more true. Impeachment filings would have happened at least a week ago and it would be 24/7 excoriation with literal foaming at the mouth talking heads.

I can't remember the last time I have been so disgusted.
It won't be ignored right now, but does anybody really think most Americans will be paying much attention or care what is going on in Afganistan a year from now? Probably this message board will not have a single active thread on Afganistan in August 2022. Probably a lot earlier than that Afganistan will cease to be a topic getting much activity here.

Sept. 11 was 20 years ago. Bin Laden was killed 10 years ago. The majority of Americans had lost interest in what was going on over there. That is why you saw more and more voter apathy to have troops over there and there was increasing pressure to cut bait.

Domestic issues primarily drive politics and elections, barring exceptional circumstances.
I will be paying attention and i bet the the folks who served in AFG will be paying attention.
Womackster
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Aggieair said:

I must wholeheartedly disagree with you on several points. My background: I was in Afghanistan in 2020 when the drawdown was actually happening up until the very end of the year, also working in a strategic level position.

1. The political spin. Look, I'm more inclined to support Trump than Biden in general, but trying to imply that things would have been different if Trump had been re-elected is demonstrating selective memory at best. The Taliban never met any of the conditions of the peace deal outside of a general reduction in violence against NATO forces, and even then, we still had about a dozen NATO soldiers wounded by Taliban attacks. We were still going to leave according to the timeline regardless. Furthermore, everyone on the right is conveniently forgetting the infamous Tweet from last fall where Trump claimed he was going to have us all home by Christmas. It seems that was mainly a desperate attempt to score votes right before the election, but caused a significant panic in Afghanistan as that kind of an abrupt withdrawal would have been 10x more catastrophic than what you are watching now. I can promise you the Resolute Support leadership was constantly pushing back on pressure from the Trump admin to expedite the withdrawal, almost to the point of blatant insubordination, and ultimately ended up settling on a compromise of 2,500 troops left in country by the inauguration. We watched the ANA and ANP hemorrhage checkpoints and stretches of highway throughout 2020, and still kept drawing down. The Biden admin actually delayed the Trump timeline from May 1st to September 11th, so making this a left vs right issue is disingenuous. The biggest difference I could see now is what apparently looks like a lack of OGA presence throughout the country, though I was never privy to DoS plans under either administration. Regardless, service members I worked with at every level and nationality all agreed that the Taliban was going to take over within weeks of us leaving.

2. The primary blame for all of this rests solely on the ANA and Afghan people. Claiming we "abandoned" them after spending 20 years trying to better their country is an absolute joke. And saying they didn't have time "to even cover their flanks" is over dramatic nonsense. Trump announced in late fall 2019 that he was seeking to negotiate a peace deal with the Taliban. Then In February 2020 it was announced that we would be withdrawing everyone IAW the peace deal by May 1st 2021. With Biden's extension, GIRoA had 18 months notice this was coming. We also terminated OEF in 2015 and shifted to ORS/OFS afterwards, so the ANA has been having to operate in a lead combat role for over 5 years now. Last year when we were determining which bases to shut down and in what order, ANDSF claimed they were ready and wanted a big airbase. So we decided to give them Kandahar. And when the deadline came for enclaving the US forces into a small compound on the airfield and handing the rest of the base over, guess what? They weren't ready. So that timeline got delayed by another few months.

3. The ANA's incompetence has to be their own responsibility at some point. We did practically everything we could for them. They constantly pestered CSTC-A for more and more money when the problem was almost always their own laziness and inefficiency. I listened to a 3 star talk about how an ANA commander kept asking him for more money for uniforms and boots, only for the general to have to physically take the ANA commander to a warehouse where there were dozens upon dozens of pallets of everything he was asking that had been sitting there for YEARS untouched and undistributed by the ANA.

4. You can keep saying "But Pakistan" when it comes to the Taliban, but it is an objective fact that the ANA was overwhelmingly better trained and equipped than the Taliban. The Pakistani Air Force isn't over there conducting air strikes for the Taliban. The Taliban had a combat strength of roughly 70,000. ANDSF had over 300,000 members, not including local and national police. Those people literally just melted away the past few weeks. Now most of them are probably running around in the mob on the tarmac at HKIA. US Army doctrine states that a defending force should be able to defend a fortified position against an attacking force up to 3 times greater. And here is the ANA, with over a 3 times force advantage, surrendering BAF just a few weeks after we handed it over. And we've still been conducting air strikes this entire time in support of them.

5. Is a terrorist attack more likely now? Yes. But endless COIN wars are becoming a greater threat to national security than the terrorist attacks they are supposed to prevent. Iraq and Afghanistan have greatly sidetracked us and let China and Russia close the gap. The current US military is inadequately prepared for a LSCO fight due to being bogged down in these two conflicts for 2 decades. China and Russia have greatly modernized and are no longer the China and Russia of the 90s. We have an exponentially growing national debt where annual spending on debt interest is eclipsing that of annual defense spending, and all the money we have been shoveling into the Afghan dumpster fire could have been better spent on modernization, readiness, and retention. We must adapt and prevent terrorist attacks by more precise means rather than occupying entire countries for decades.

6. The US cannot, and should not, be the world's police/babysitter. Trump was 100% right on that. That's not being an isolationist, that's being a realist. Your implied solution was that we should just stay in Afghanistan indefinitely and never leave. Yes we are still in Korea as you mentioned. We are also still in Germany, the UK, Italy, Japan, Iraq, Kuwait, and many other places that we have occupied and never left. Where does it end? At some point you're just replaying the downfall of the Roman Empire. The force has already been spread way too thin the past decades. I can't even count how many people I've served with that have over 10 deployments or have spent almost half their career deployed. We are already facing retention and recruiting problems where those that do stay in have to pick up the slack. Soldiers are tired of having to babysit another military that would rather sit around and smoke hash than do their jobs.

Man, I was in Afghanistan as well (2004-2005). You and the OP are somehow both right.

We were never going to win there because we were never interested in defining what a win was.

And we couldn't manage better than getting absolutely routed as we left. Just embarrassing. Utterly embarrassing. The lives, equipment, and good faith lost here are immeasurable. Mark Milley should be stripped of rank and discharged. Biden should resign.
Womackster
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MSCAg said:

First I really do thank the OP for their service.

That said

We either should have taken over Afghanistan as a US territory, where we could implement our laws and invest in the country as we saw fit; or left the Afghanis to themselves. Our current policy was not sustainable and frankly as recent weeks have proven, fruitless.


Did Biden implement the pull out stupidly, yes. But good grief what have we been doing their for 20 years that the ANA got overrun in a month? I get the Taliban have support from Pakistan and probably Iran as well, but its not like Pakistani F-16s are providing air support. Fact of the matter is the ANA on paper should have been better equipped and at least as trained as the Taliban and the Taliban just rolled them over. Either the ANA didn't want to fight or was so inept they were of no consequence. That's not Biden or Trump's fault that's 20 years of wasting our soldier's blood, money, and time.

What you seem to be saying is the only way the ANA knew how to fight is not be learning how to shoot, but to flip on the radio and ask an American drone to do it for them. If that really was our military and training policy, it was doomed to fail.

I disagree with your belief another 9/11 is bound to happen. Terrorist had plenty of other places they can plan from (Pakistan, Iran, etc). Another 9/11 may happen, but that will be due to groups slipping through intelligence watches and/or security failures, not the Taliban coming back to power in Afghanistan.

I don't like the fact the Taliban is back in power, and I do feel bad for the Afghani people. But we can't keep fighting that battle for them and I will disagree with your more expert knowledge, but I think a lack of will to fight is a big part of it.

That's just radioactive level naivety. If you try a new pickup line and land a super model, do you stop using that pickup line?
Madagascar
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I appreciate the OP's viewpoint but agree much more with your counterpoints. When people refuse to learn how to shoot, it is their fault when they lose control of their country. With defeatest attitudes like that, there was always going to be a power vacuum where someone like the Taliban would come back in and take over. Implying that we need to stay there because they are too stupid to take care of themselves is exemplary of the very elitist thinking that I despise in the democrat party.

Thank you both for your service. We would not be able to talk about it here without your efforts.
MapGuy
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Quote:

Man, I was in Afghanistan as well (2004-2005). You and the OP are somehow both right.
Where were you based out of back then? I was there from 03/04 -03/05 with the 25th out of Hawaii. I kind of floated around the country between Bagram, Salerno, Kabul, & the Bamyan region.
Eliminatus
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MapGuy said:

Quote:

Man, I was in Afghanistan as well (2004-2005). You and the OP are somehow both right.
Where were you based out of back then? I was there from 03/04 -03/05 with the 25th out of Hawaii. I kind of floated around the country between Bagram, Salerno, Kabul, & the Bamyan region.


That's actually a very valid point. Five presidents and admins have had their hands on this fight. It's folly to think all of us had the same experience. We should establish a baseline maybe for those who've been there?

I was there as a trigger puller all of 2008 in Helmand and Farah. Situation was FUBAR from the get go and was the same when I left. Policy was train first, COIN second which very quickly became pure COIN after our afghans counterparts **** the bed so many times.
Womackster
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MapGuy said:

Quote:

Man, I was in Afghanistan as well (2004-2005). You and the OP are somehow both right.
Where were you based out of back then? I was there from 03/04 -03/05 with the 25th out of Hawaii. I kind of floated around the country between Bagram, Salerno, Kabul, & the Bamyan region.

I was 25th too. Oruzgan Province.
Howdy Dammit
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I wish I was intelligent enough to contribute to the conversation
dmart90
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Womackster said:




We were never going to win there because we were never interested in defining what a win was.


This is a very interesting point and one that raises several questions.

1. Afghanistan, as we know it today, is a western construct. Should it still exist as constructed?
2. Let's say the answer to 1 is yes. Instead us defining "what a win was"; did anyone ever think to ask that question of the Afghan people or government?
3. Did the soldiers in the ANA even want to serve? Did they know what the objective was? Were they bought in? If not, that surely contributed to them folding, right?
aggiedent
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Thinking that staying in Afghanistan could prevent another 9/11 is exactly the type of failed foreign policy thinking that needs to be tossed in the trash.

How many countries are training terrorists? We going to occupy them all? How many American lives will that cost?

And in 50 years we would have the same problems. And another generation of statesman would be suggesting we do the exact same thing for another 50 years. And on and on.

Gigemags382
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What's the TexAgs blue star single-post record?
P.H. Dexippus
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Gigemags382 said:

What's the TexAgs blue star single-post record?

A Johnny Football post a few years ago. Don't recall the count.
titan
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S

Quote:


Man, I was in Afghanistan as well (2004-2005). You and the OP are somehow both right.

We were never going to win there because we were never interested in defining what a win was.

And we couldn't manage better than getting absolutely routed as we left. Just embarrassing. Utterly embarrassing. The lives, equipment, and good faith lost here are immeasurable. Mark Milley should be stripped of rank and discharged. Biden should resign.

Yes. It was an unwinnable thing since no definition of a `win' had been made, and then committed to. But what was absolutely possible for a great power, let alone one that calls itself a `super power'- was a belligerent withdrawal - the kind where the enemy goes out of their way to let you leave and not provoke further. It was possible to make this in a more orderly fashion, with threats to escalate as need be if the retirement was interfered with. We didn't even make such statement-threats.

Milley clearly too preoccupied with gender and CRT race baiting games and fantasy upside down ideas wondering why the right is opposing Marxism to have the big picture clear.
Tanya 93
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Gigemags382 said:

What's the TexAgs blue star single-post record?
wasn't it Nazis as an answer to the best thing ever killed

something like that
Gordo14
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Agree with OP. This is going to be a disaster - even moreso than it already is. It accomplishes nothing, but to provide a solution to the ignorant ("20 year war") talking points without regard to the actual realities of the situation.

As to who deserves blame, both Trump and Biden deserve a lot of blame. Trump negotiated with these ****ing terrorists putting us on this stupid path and Biden misnanaged the last few months on a level that is just disgusting. The result is we turned our sunk cost in Afghanistan into a ****ing waste. The 2020 status quo was so much better than this.

At this point we better get every Afghan who we can that worked for the US government out of that hellhole so we don't simply abandon those that risked their lives for us. Then I just hope and pray that we don't have to relearn why we entered Afghanistan in the first place (never forget). Because if we have to go back in, it'll make whats happening now look benign.
Womackster
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titan said:


Quote:


Man, I was in Afghanistan as well (2004-2005). You and the OP are somehow both right.

We were never going to win there because we were never interested in defining what a win was.

And we couldn't manage better than getting absolutely routed as we left. Just embarrassing. Utterly embarrassing. The lives, equipment, and good faith lost here are immeasurable. Mark Milley should be stripped of rank and discharged. Biden should resign.

Yes. It was an unwinnable thing since no definition of a `win' had been made, and then committed to. But what was absolutely possible for a great power, let alone one that calls itself a `super power'- was a belligerent withdrawal - the kind where the enemy goes out of their way to let you leave and not provoke further. It was possible to make this in a more orderly fashion, with threats to escalate as need be if the retirement was interfered with. We didn't even make such statement-threats.

Milley clearly too preoccupied with gender and CRT race baiting games and fantasy upside down ideas wondering why the right is opposing Marxism to have the big picture clear.

Completely agree
infinity ag
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PearlJammin said:

bmks270 said:

After 20 years, why didn't we kill off all of the Taliban?


Taliban = Pakistan

We don't have the balls to mess with Pakistan.

Forget the lame excuse of "they have nukes". That is nonsense. The real reason is Pakistan is state that is on hire and we can get them to do our dirty work. But then they also play a double game on us and we are too weak and stupid and politically correct to call them out and bomb them because we don't want to be shamed as anti-Islam. So it's better to sell our morals and bomb other countries instead.
Flying Crowbar
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Tanya 93 said:

Gigemags382 said:

What's the TexAgs blue star single-post record?
wasn't it Nazis as an answer to the best thing ever killed

something like that
https://texags.com/forums/34/topics/1841575/replies/26882339

I think this is the winner.
Daddy-O5
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I think Johnny's post on premium was several thousand. Not 100% sure on that though.
P.H. Dexippus
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I'm fairly confident that the thread started by Johnny exceeded that fantastic post. Does anyone recall his username? Sorry for the derail.
Daddy-O5
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JFF

https://texags.com/forums/25/topics/2930406/replies/51142250

It's at nearly 4000.
Kong77
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As long as we continue to support Pakistan in any way and don't hold them accountable, Central Asia and the world will always be threatened. The US (under both Democrat and Republican administrations) has supported that terrorist regime and in some cases against a Democratic India in the 70's-2000's.

The recently established Quad Alliance in the Indo-Pacific is a step in the right direction, but long way to go for correcting decades of missteps in the our Asia policies.
GoodBullShark
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Thank you for your service. God Bless. Elections have consequences. In this case it is many lives lost. Be it American or not.
Flying Crowbar
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Mea culpa. I'm a lolpoor, so I didn't know about the Premium post.
Tanya 93
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J_Daddy05 said:

JFF

https://texags.com/forums/25/topics/2930406/replies/51142250

It's at nearly 4000.
Thank you
akm91
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J_Daddy05 said:

JFF

https://texags.com/forums/25/topics/2930406/replies/51142250

It's at nearly 4000.
Yeah, but was it a one word answer?
"And liberals, being liberals, will double down on failure." - dedgod
Womackster
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dmart90 said:

Womackster said:




We were never going to win there because we were never interested in defining what a win was.


This is a very interesting point and one that raises several questions.

1. Afghanistan, as we know it today, is a western construct. Should it still exist as constructed?
2. Let's say the answer to 1 is yes. Instead us defining "what a win was"; did anyone ever think to ask that question of the Afghan people or government?
3. Did the soldiers in the ANA even want to serve? Did they know what the objective was? Were they bought in? If not, that surely contributed to them folding, right?

I think you misunderstand what I think a win is. What I think a win is has nothing to do with Afghanistan or t he Afghani people. It has to do with eradicating the Taliban and knee-capping ideological Islamo-tyranny in the region. And that probably means finding one or more tough, feared, and ambitious tribal leaders to hand over the reigns to with a promise to replace them if they colored outside the lines. Instead we embarked on some sort of representative government vision quest that only a few Afghanis had the desire and mental capacity to buy into, only to abandon them 20 years later to the whims of a sadistic and vindictive regime far worse than the meanest, greediest chief.

We needed this:


Did this instead:
We fixed the keg
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Tanya 93 said:

Gigemags382 said:

What's the TexAgs blue star single-post record?
wasn't it Nazis as an answer to the best thing ever killed

something like that
https://texags.com/forums/34/topics/1841575/replies/26882339
 
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