Voted for Jo Jorgensen and every other libertarian I could

8,824 Views | 160 Replies | Last: 27 days ago by dBoy99
Viper16
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BigRobSA said:

Viper16 said:

eric76 said:

Viper16 said:

eric76 said:

Gigem314 said:

eric76 said:

Gigem314 said:

Jorgensen voters were never going to vote for Trump anyway. So anything that takes away from Biden is a positive.
I told my sister that I was cancelling out her vote for Trump by voting for Jorgensen.

She didn't seem to mind.
Probably because she figured you'd never vote Trump but is glad Biden gets one less vote.

I have family that did the same. They didn't vote for Trump in 2016 either.

But I've gone from 3rd party to Trump. And hear from more that have done the same than sticking with 3rd party.
Biden never would have had a chance of getting my vote, Libertarians or not. I would have found someone else or just skipped the Presidential election on the ballot entirely.
Just curious........

What are you looking for in a candidate?

What is your position on border security, the economy, the current type of energy production, income tax structure to include state and local taxes, job production, foreign policy, 1st amendment protection, 2nd amendment protection, sedition committed by the highest levels of the FBI, CIA and the former Executive branch, basic rule of law........just for starters.

I truly would like to know why individuals vote Libertarian.

JMHO....no Diss intended
I want someone who has either solid classical liberal or solid conservative principles and who acts according to those principles.

Biden's principles appear to be rather minimal and are neither classical liberal nor conservative principles. Although Biden seems to be closer to the center in many ways, I don't believe that he is strong enough to hold his position against those much further to the left.

Trump not only has no principles, but he seems to take intentional ignorance of principles as a virtue.

By the way, the current issue of National Review has this at https://www.nationalreview.com/magazine/2020/11/02/trump-no/

Quote:

All presidents have lapses in judgment, honesty, and self-control; many of them have even been wanting, at least sometimes, in decency and public-spiritedness. Trump is alarmingly deficient in all of these qualities at once, and their lack has marked every day of his presidency.

You don't have to believe any anonymous sources in the news to see it. You need only watch the president and listen to him. On any given day, he will be calling a former member of his administration a "moron," or taking shots at one of its current members. Or live-tweeting his feelings about the cable-news shows he is watching. Or casually endorsing some nutty and slanderous theory, as when he suggested that top military leaders "want to do nothing but fight wars" to profit defense companies. Or confusing allies and opponents alike with some half-baked idea.

Also, in the summary of the article as to voting for a third party candidate:
Quote:

The voter who decides that neither Biden nor Trump deserves his support will be accused of irresponsibility, of escapism, of indulging a sense of moral purity, of wasting a vote. There is, on this view, an obligation to pick among the top two candidates. It is worth resisting this supposed imperative. If a vote that does not determine the outcome of an election is wasted, then every vote is wasted and wasted all the more if it is cast for someone the voter does not want to be president. The Biden supporters and the Trump supporters who tell you "it's a binary choice" want you to vote as though the election result were wholly in your hands. And if that scenario were not contrived enough, they implicitly add that at the same time you don't have the power to elevate a write-in candidate. You must imagine both that your power is counterfactually absolute and that you cannot choose options that are plainly before you (writing someone in, voting third party, etc.).

... The truth is that neither of these candidates is worthy of the public's trust. So don't vote for either one of them, and don't let anyone tell you that you have to.


"I want someone who has either solid classical liberal or solid conservative principles."

Interesting comment......Those 2 principles are generally in complete opposition to each other. So, if you have 2 candidates that meet your criteria in a general election, you vote for ....??????


"What is your position on border security, the economy, the current type of energy production, income tax structure to include state and local taxes, job production, foreign policy, 1st amendment protection, 2nd amendment protection, sedition committed by the highest levels of the FBI, CIA and the former Executive branch, basic rule of law........just for starters."

Still curious about these positions and how they fit into your criteria of a Presidential Candidate as mentioned above.


Again, just asking.......I really don't care if you vote or sit out. Your choice for sure.

No disrespect intended.










"Classical liberal" is not in opposition to conservatism. They're ideological siblings.

I agree they are ideological siblings. Classically, they are not in total opposition to each other.

Classical Liberalism and Classical Conservatism exists in the minds of philosophers.

I should have said modern liberalism and modern conservatism as practiced by the two major parties today are in opposition to each other.

If Eric is looking for a candidate that meets those classic solid liberal principles or solid conservative principles, he will be looking a long time. I don't know any candidate in the last 5 Presidential Elections that has met those criteria, much less the basic criteria set forth by both democrat and republican voters and their party platforms.

So, I was attempting to understand what specific criteria he looks for in a modern Presidential Candidate knowing, as we all do, that those candidates usually don't meet our individual checklist of desires and needs.

If the 3rd party candidate meets his desired principles, then great.

I just don't think the Libertarian Party will ever present an attractive platform or have a chance in the General election.

We are ruled by a two party system whether we like it or not and voting for someone in the current major two party system is our only way of getting our voice heard.



Liberals huddle in cities like rats huddle in sewers!
FalconAg06
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Classical liberalism and actual conservatism are absolutely ideological opposites. They overlap on very little, believe it or not classical liberalism overlaps a great deal with actual liberalism.

Conservatism is ordered to the family, to a morally objective compass, and to order and natural hierarchy.

Liberalism is ordered to the individual, to freedom bereft of morality, and to relativism. Classical liberalism just added some caveats regarding cases in which individual liberty could be abridged.

Our country started as politically liberal but individually conservative. They were right that a conservative society didn't need the heavy hand of government to thrive. Unfortunately over the years we taught ourselves that America was just an idea, and that freedom made us good, not that we were able to handle freedom because we were good, and here we are.



TheMasterplan
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eric76 said:

Conservative Ag said:

eric76 said:

Viper16 said:

eric76 said:

Gigem314 said:

eric76 said:

Gigem314 said:

Jorgensen voters were never going to vote for Trump anyway. So anything that takes away from Biden is a positive.
I told my sister that I was cancelling out her vote for Trump by voting for Jorgensen.

She didn't seem to mind.
Probably because she figured you'd never vote Trump but is glad Biden gets one less vote.

I have family that did the same. They didn't vote for Trump in 2016 either.

But I've gone from 3rd party to Trump. And hear from more that have done the same than sticking with 3rd party.
Biden never would have had a chance of getting my vote, Libertarians or not. I would have found someone else or just skipped the Presidential election on the ballot entirely.
Just curious........

What are you looking for in a candidate?

What is your position on border security, the economy, the current type of energy production, income tax structure to include state and local taxes, job production, foreign policy, 1st amendment protection, 2nd amendment protection, sedition committed by the highest levels of the FBI, CIA and the former Executive branch, basic rule of law........just for starters.

I truly would like to know why individuals vote Libertarian.

JMHO....no Diss intended
I want someone who has either solid classical liberal or solid conservative principles and who acts according to those principles.

Biden's principles appear to be rather minimal and are neither classical liberal nor conservative principles. Although Biden seems to be closer to the center in many ways, I don't believe that he is strong enough to hold his position against those much further to the left.

Trump not only has no principles, but he seems to take intentional ignorance of principles as a virtue.

By the way, the current issue of National Review has this at https://www.nationalreview.com/magazine/2020/11/02/trump-no/

Quote:

All presidents have lapses in judgment, honesty, and self-control; many of them have even been wanting, at least sometimes, in decency and public-spiritedness. Trump is alarmingly deficient in all of these qualities at once, and their lack has marked every day of his presidency.

You don't have to believe any anonymous sources in the news to see it. You need only watch the president and listen to him. On any given day, he will be calling a former member of his administration a "moron," or taking shots at one of its current members. Or live-tweeting his feelings about the cable-news shows he is watching. Or casually endorsing some nutty and slanderous theory, as when he suggested that top military leaders "want to do nothing but fight wars" to profit defense companies. Or confusing allies and opponents alike with some half-baked idea.

Also, in the summary of the article as to voting for a third party candidate:
Quote:

The voter who decides that neither Biden nor Trump deserves his support will be accused of irresponsibility, of escapism, of indulging a sense of moral purity, of wasting a vote. There is, on this view, an obligation to pick among the top two candidates. It is worth resisting this supposed imperative. If a vote that does not determine the outcome of an election is wasted, then every vote is wasted and wasted all the more if it is cast for someone the voter does not want to be president. The Biden supporters and the Trump supporters who tell you "it's a binary choice" want you to vote as though the election result were wholly in your hands. And if that scenario were not contrived enough, they implicitly add that at the same time you don't have the power to elevate a write-in candidate. You must imagine both that your power is counterfactually absolute and that you cannot choose options that are plainly before you (writing someone in, voting third party, etc.).

... The truth is that neither of these candidates is worthy of the public's trust. So don't vote for either one of them, and don't let anyone tell you that you have to.


You are incredibly exhausting.
I honestly answered an honest question. If you find a discussion incredibly exhausting, then it says a hell of a lot about you than about me.
You like to go on about George Bush being a great leader. Did you vote for him and what about him indicated he was a classical liberal?
eric76
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TheMasterplan said:

eric76 said:

Conservative Ag said:

eric76 said:

Viper16 said:

eric76 said:

Gigem314 said:

eric76 said:

Gigem314 said:

Jorgensen voters were never going to vote for Trump anyway. So anything that takes away from Biden is a positive.
I told my sister that I was cancelling out her vote for Trump by voting for Jorgensen.

She didn't seem to mind.
Probably because she figured you'd never vote Trump but is glad Biden gets one less vote.

I have family that did the same. They didn't vote for Trump in 2016 either.

But I've gone from 3rd party to Trump. And hear from more that have done the same than sticking with 3rd party.
Biden never would have had a chance of getting my vote, Libertarians or not. I would have found someone else or just skipped the Presidential election on the ballot entirely.
Just curious........

What are you looking for in a candidate?

What is your position on border security, the economy, the current type of energy production, income tax structure to include state and local taxes, job production, foreign policy, 1st amendment protection, 2nd amendment protection, sedition committed by the highest levels of the FBI, CIA and the former Executive branch, basic rule of law........just for starters.

I truly would like to know why individuals vote Libertarian.

JMHO....no Diss intended
I want someone who has either solid classical liberal or solid conservative principles and who acts according to those principles.

Biden's principles appear to be rather minimal and are neither classical liberal nor conservative principles. Although Biden seems to be closer to the center in many ways, I don't believe that he is strong enough to hold his position against those much further to the left.

Trump not only has no principles, but he seems to take intentional ignorance of principles as a virtue.

By the way, the current issue of National Review has this at https://www.nationalreview.com/magazine/2020/11/02/trump-no/

Quote:

All presidents have lapses in judgment, honesty, and self-control; many of them have even been wanting, at least sometimes, in decency and public-spiritedness. Trump is alarmingly deficient in all of these qualities at once, and their lack has marked every day of his presidency.

You don't have to believe any anonymous sources in the news to see it. You need only watch the president and listen to him. On any given day, he will be calling a former member of his administration a "moron," or taking shots at one of its current members. Or live-tweeting his feelings about the cable-news shows he is watching. Or casually endorsing some nutty and slanderous theory, as when he suggested that top military leaders "want to do nothing but fight wars" to profit defense companies. Or confusing allies and opponents alike with some half-baked idea.

Also, in the summary of the article as to voting for a third party candidate:
Quote:

The voter who decides that neither Biden nor Trump deserves his support will be accused of irresponsibility, of escapism, of indulging a sense of moral purity, of wasting a vote. There is, on this view, an obligation to pick among the top two candidates. It is worth resisting this supposed imperative. If a vote that does not determine the outcome of an election is wasted, then every vote is wasted and wasted all the more if it is cast for someone the voter does not want to be president. The Biden supporters and the Trump supporters who tell you "it's a binary choice" want you to vote as though the election result were wholly in your hands. And if that scenario were not contrived enough, they implicitly add that at the same time you don't have the power to elevate a write-in candidate. You must imagine both that your power is counterfactually absolute and that you cannot choose options that are plainly before you (writing someone in, voting third party, etc.).

... The truth is that neither of these candidates is worthy of the public's trust. So don't vote for either one of them, and don't let anyone tell you that you have to.


You are incredibly exhausting.
I honestly answered an honest question. If you find a discussion incredibly exhausting, then it says a hell of a lot about you than about me.
You like to go on about George Bush being a great leader. Did you vote for him and what about him indicated he was a classical liberal?
Bush showed that he had solid leadership abilities in response to 9/11. There was no hesitation or wavering or wishes that it didn't happen and he sure didn't go around whining about it happening to him. Instead, he led the nation to do what he thought needed to be done.

Recognition of his leadership and other abilities (you can't deny that he had a very good work ethic) does not mean that I have ever considered him to be a classical liberal.

As President, he did some things that I thought were good and some that I thought weren't so good. I think that most of his second term was as a lame duck. His nomination of Harriet Myers for the Supreme Court was crazy.
titan
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S
FalconAg06 said:

Classical liberalism and actual conservatism are absolutely ideological opposites. They overlap on very little, believe it or not classical liberalism overlaps a great deal with actual liberalism.

Conservatism is ordered to the family, to a morally objective compass, and to order and natural hierarchy.

Liberalism is ordered to the individual, to freedom bereft of morality, and to relativism. Classical liberalism just added some caveats regarding cases in which individual liberty could be abridged.

Our country started as politically liberal but individually conservative. They were right that a conservative society didn't need the heavy hand of government to thrive. Unfortunately over the years we taught ourselves that America was just an idea, and that freedom made us good, not that we were able to handle freedom because we were good, and here we are.




Interesting. That could be true. There is a parallel that comes to mind that -- I am not sure what the American equivalent in the 19th C would be ---- but by the italics, do you mean conservative should be understood something like Bismarck's "Kurche, Kinder, and Kultur"? The simple term WASP is not it---but I think there is something to what you are saying as a way of looking at the emphasis.



FrioAg 00:
Leftist Democrats "have completely overplayed the Racism accusation. Honestly my first reaction when I hear it today is to assume bad intentions by the accuser, not the accused."
FalconAg06
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titan said:

FalconAg06 said:

Classical liberalism and actual conservatism are absolutely ideological opposites. They overlap on very little, believe it or not classical liberalism overlaps a great deal with actual liberalism.

Conservatism is ordered to the family, to a morally objective compass, and to order and natural hierarchy.

Liberalism is ordered to the individual, to freedom bereft of morality, and to relativism. Classical liberalism just added some caveats regarding cases in which individual liberty could be abridged.

Our country started as politically liberal but individually conservative. They were right that a conservative society didn't need the heavy hand of government to thrive. Unfortunately over the years we taught ourselves that America was just an idea, and that freedom made us good, not that we were able to handle freedom because we were good, and here we are.




Interesting. That could be true. There is a parallel that comes to mind that -- I am not sure what the American equivalent in the 19th C would be ---- but by the italics, do you mean conservative should be understood something like Bismarck's "Kurche, Kinder, and Kultur"? The simple term WASP is not it---but I think there is something to what you are saying as a way of looking at the emphasis.






Absolutely, the closest American analog (very imperfect) would be Teddy Roosevelt or Andrew Jackson. Maybe a Williams Jennings Bryan or a Huey Long although these would be further to the left. For a farther right version look at Msgr Charles Coughlin.

Strongweasel97
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AG
This is a representative republic. You vote for the most viable candidate who you think can best represent you at the national level.

If you vote for a non-contender, you have essentially thrown your representation away.

Take comfort in the fact that you voted for your "best" candidate. Make sure you call Jo in a few years to see what she can do about taxes, the economy, 2nd amendment rights, etc.
TheMasterplan
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Did you vote for him?

Yes this is a gotcha question.
dBoy99
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Nation-Ag09 said:

Wasted votes are fun
Terrible take. There is nothing wrong with someone casting their vote for the candidate they best feels represents their positions. This take is why we have so many RINOs. A vote is something of great significance. Don't just give it away. A candidate needs to earn your vote.


nevermind....
dBoy99
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Tanya 93 said:

FCBlitz said:

If we learned anything from 2020 a real, purposely third party will never be allowed to exist. There will be token libertarians but never any, in enough numbers to be influential.

Voting for a libertarian for president in 2020 indicates a person is either mentally ill or just does not understand the political climate that exists. Voting libertarian means you are ok for sleepy joe to be a figure head type president and the real folks who will be shaping and influencing policy will be hidden in the shadows.

Please don't vote libertarian for president. Knock yourself out for all other races......please vote Trump for 2020.
No

Someone should vote for who they think is best
Not vote for someone because the other major candidate sucks.

If the Republican isn't worth voting for, maybe the Republicans need better candidates.
It breaks my heart to admit that I agree with Tanya on something - but she is right on this one.


nevermind....
FalconAg06
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Extremely childlike and masturbatory in the extreme. Firing your ammunition in the air and trading in your vote for a 3rd party candidate for a smug sense of self satisfaction and the dopamine rush you get from being an online contrarian.
edtombell
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AG
Great I'm glad you voted l hope you don't take that right for granted the rest of us have to vote for President Trump to preserve it.
dBoy99
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Why is it bad to vote your conscience and make a candidate earn your vote?

How is it masturbatory and childish for someone to decide that neither Biden or Trump have earned their vote?

If people valued the privilege of voting we would probably have better candidates.


nevermind....
FalconAg06
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dBoy99 said:

Why is it bad to vote your conscience and make a candidate earn your vote?

How is it masturbatory and childish for someone to decide that neither Biden or Trump have earned their vote?

If people valued the privilege of voting we would probably have better candidates.


Its self pleasing with zero effect, its the definition of masturbatory. Its a tantrum, and it's a tantrum that isn't even internally consistent.

"I'm not going to compromise my vote for a candidate that doesn't represent my views"

-"Oh, so Jorgensen perfectly represents your views?"

"Well no, but she's closer than Trump"

-"then why didn't you write in someone who perfectly represents your views?"

"Because they had no chance of winning"
ChemEAg08
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So do libertarians believe they should just do what the government says just so they can vote?

RDV-1992 said:

I wore my mask when I voted. I don't see what the big deal is. Just wear it & vote.


Doesn't seem very libertarian to me...
RDV-1992
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ChemEAg08 said:

So do libertarians believe they should just do what the government says just so they can vote?

RDV-1992 said:

I wore my mask when I voted. I don't see what the big deal is. Just wear it & vote.


Doesn't seem very libertarian to me...
Ah, well I'm also a libertarian who chooses to wear clothes in public. Not all of us do that, so... maybe I'm atypical?
ChemEAg08
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RDV-1992 said:

ChemEAg08 said:

So do libertarians believe they should just do what the government says just so they can vote?

RDV-1992 said:

I wore my mask when I voted. I don't see what the big deal is. Just wear it & vote.


Doesn't seem very libertarian to me...
Ah, well I'm also a libertarian who chooses to wear clothes in public. Not all of us do that, so... maybe I'm atypical?


Ha yes, the "don't be naked in public" argument. Fairly certain most libertarians would agree they should wear clothes in public. I'd be interested to see the percentage that think they should wear a mask because the government told them.
aTmAg
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AG
For every primary, I vote the most libertarian GOP candidate running. I never vote LP, since that is throwing my vote in the trash.

For the past several general elections, I have written in a non-pacifist libertarian for Prez. This time around, polls (incorrectly, I think) indicate Texas may be close, so I voted for Trump. The last thing I want to do help get Biden elected.
RDV-1992
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Hmm. I really don't care how many support mask wearing. I find that it makes doing the things that I need to do easier, and so I do it.
titan
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S
dBoy99 said:

Nation-Ag09 said:

Wasted votes are fun
Terrible take. There is nothing wrong with someone casting their vote for the candidate they best feels represents their positions. This take is why we have so many RINOs. A vote is something of great significance. Don't just give it away. A candidate needs to earn your vote.
This is true to a point.

As said above, if one has a position on socialism vs capitalism, they have to choose between Biden or Trump. Its on the ballot, its on the block. Most of the time a sea change is not on the ballot, only a political one.

If they don't have a hard and fast position on that, they are free to prioritize other factors. But that's on the ballot this time. Biden's take -which won't be the one that governs -- is only the mildest of the socialism; but its pro govt directing economy and anti capitalism also.
FrioAg 00:
Leftist Democrats "have completely overplayed the Racism accusation. Honestly my first reaction when I hear it today is to assume bad intentions by the accuser, not the accused."
dBoy99
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AG
Well, I missed that. That person was just virtue signaling. If you can rationally justify your vote then vote your conscience. If you're an idiot you don't deserve to vote any way.


nevermind....
 
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