Well I was going to ignore the bait, but this piece of baseless, condescending character assassination was simply too much to ignore:
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Infection_Ag11 continues to post, defiantly, that HCQ and Ivermectin do not work.
Because the body of available evidence suggests they do not.
First, with respect to HCQ, no medication in the history of modern medicine was so extensively studied for a single indication in so short a period of time WITHOUT there being any clear benefit. In other words, it was given more chances than any medication reasonably should be to prove it's worth and still failed. Studies were done in early disease, late disease, as a means of prophylaxis, with zinc and/or azithromycin and everything in between. The claims that this drug was ignored by the medical establishment is a clear and unambiguous lie. It is a lie propagated, as you would say, for political purposes.
Here are some of the larger studies and meta-analysis on HCQ of varying types with varying endpoints, and articles discussing those findings:
https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/nejmoa2012410https://www.beckershospitalreview.com/pharmacy/largest-hydroxychloroquine-study-to-date-finds-no-benefit-for-covid-19.htmlhttps://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.04.16.20065920v1https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMoa2022926https://www.statnews.com/2020/06/05/hydroxychloroquine-had-no-benefit-for-hospitalized-covid-19-patients-possibly-closing-door-to-use-of-drug/https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-020-77748-xThe body of quality evidence OVERWHELMINGLY shows no benefit. I can't stress enough how conclusive the data is in this setting in the context of drug trials.
Now, with respect to ivermectin, there is a lower volume of data than for HCQ and most of what exists is low quality (under-powered, poorly determined end points, etc.). However, the body of what does exists suggests no benefit especially when only factoring in the higher quality evidence. Some smaller studies do suggest a small decrease is duration of some symptoms such as loss of taste and smell, but generally lack meaningful clinical endpoints to warrant use. The largest and best study to date of nearly 500 patients suggests no benefit.
https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/fullarticle/2777389Perhaps more damning than the studies however, and this is important, is the science behind the proposed mechanism. The premise of ivermectin benefit comes from some laboratory data suggesting in vitro inhibition and from mouse models where they gave mice hilariously obscene doses. The problem with this is the tissue and serum concentrations required to achieve this are a FULL ORDER F MAGNITUDE higher than those achievable in the human body even with massively supratherapeutic and toxic doses of the medication. In vivo, it is simply impossible to achieve this let alone safely.https://ebm.bmj.com/content/early/2021/05/26/bmjebm-2021-111678Quote:
Ivermectin may have saved millions of lives in India just this month.
There is no evidence to support this other than the circumstantial fact that in SOME provinces there was a LOOSE temporal correlation with a decline in cases. Many places didnt see this temporal association, in many places the decline in cases began BEFORE large scale use of ivermectin, and HCQ was already being widely used prior to May. Most doctors and heath authorities in India acknowledge there is no scientific reason for them to be doing this and that they are simply caving to public and government pressure. I understand many of you get your scientific opinions from Facebook articles, but these rarely hold up to even basic scrutiny.
Here's a quality (though admittedly long and dense) breakdown of the situation:
https://healthfeedback.org/claimreview/no-data-available-to-suggest-a-link-between-indias-reduction-of-covid-19-cases-and-the-use-of-ivermectin-jim-hoft-gateway-pundit/Quote:
My own father struggled to recover from Covid until he was given HCQ to facilitate the effectiveness of Zinc.
I'm very happy your father recovered, truly I am, but he was eventually going to recover regardless of whether or not he got HCQ. Moreover, it sounds like he received HCQ long after even the proposed time frame where those who wanted it to be effective claimed it would be.
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Their politics were placed before medicine, just like Fauci has now been proven to have done, as well as many pharmacists.
I voted for Donald Trump, twice, and have never voted for a democrat in any state or national election in my life. I'm just as disturbed by the Biden administration's policies as you are, and as a high earner I stand to lose a lot from democrats being elected to the executive and legislative branches. I have no political reason to want to make Trump or conservatives look bad because I am one. Moreover, it would be GREAT if these drugs worked. they are cheap and widely available. I'd give them if they worked. They just don't appear to.
Finally, the fatal flaw in this conspiracy theory is the one class of drug that has shown tremendous benefit for very ill COVID patients: Steroids. They are very cheap, widely available, Trump touted them and doctors were nervous about them in the beginning because of prior data in treating viral illnesses with them. Under your ideas about why things are used and why they arent, we should be shunning this as well. THE DIFFERENCE IS THE DATA SHOWS THEY WORK, OVERHWHELMINGLY SO.Quote:
I wonder how many patients asked about HCQ and Ivermectin and Infection_Ag11 panned it.
Maybe two dozen or so if I had to guess. I shared similar information with them and provided similar data to what I'm sharing now, including printing off studies for them and having prolonged discussions with them. All were very reasonable, understanding and accepting of this information. None of these patients died or had any severe manifestations of COVID to my recollection (not that that is a meaningful metric).
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God forbid they died because of your arrogance. Or is it ignorance? Maybe both.
If you're going to attack someone's morals, character, and motivation, try and not be so very wrong on literally every single point you attempt to make.
I apologize if some of this comes off as crass, but I won't sit here and be lectured about my care for or dedication to patients by someone who has spent the last 18 months *****ing from behind a computer. I've seen so many COVID19 patients during this time I long ago stopped keeping count, and have done my best for them with the best evidence available to the medical community.
At the end of the day, the only people in this thread who are desperately pushing medication advice on the basis of politics are those who want these drugs to work in spite of the evidence.
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