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But why would I teach my children the Word of God if their fate is sealed before they hear one word? What a waste of time.

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God has not only ordained who will come to Him, but how as well. The bible says “faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God”. IT is through the word preached that the Lord has chosen as His sovereign means. You are not therefore called to be successful, but to be faithful…

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Yes, He will. That's why I choose to serve Him....and encourage others to do the same.

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So if you serve Him, you will be saved?

Not - the scripture you gave earlier in context tells us that we are enabled after we hear and are taught.

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Where?

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Well, do you want those verses, or for me to answer the verses you make a bunch of assumptions from…

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I have said nothing that you can point to that contradicts the scriptures. I have used NOTHING but the New Testament and have asked numerous times for your explanation of the scriptures I have given if not the meaning I have explained. Each scripture has meaning and you can't just write off an explanation to taking the entire "context" of the New Testament as an explanation. I am asking you to teach me the Truth. I am asking for an explanation of the scriptures God has given with questions about specific verses. Will you answer them or not?

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The Lord has ordained many second causes to effect His purposes, but those causes are all ultimately contingent upon the first cause…

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Not - the scripture you gave earlier in context tells us that we are enabled after we hear and are taught.

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It does not say after we hear. You added that. IT says that after we are taught… The father teaches us, making us willing to come…

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The bible says “faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God”.

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I don't disagree. But my kids are already doomed or saved. No amount of "hearing" will change the result. I have no responsibility in this matter.

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So if you serve Him, you will be saved?

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YES!

Colossians 3:23-25

23And whatever you do, do it heartily, as to the Lord and not to men, 24knowing that from the Lord you will receive the reward of the inheritance; for[a] you serve the Lord Christ. 25But he who does wrong will be repaid for what he has done, and there is no partiality.

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I don't disagree. But my kids are already doomed or saved. No amount of "hearing" will change the result. I have no responsibility in this matter..

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It is true that the scriptures teach that God is the ultimate sovereign over who is saved, and who perishes, but unless you desire to play God, then you need to just be a faithful servant as he commands…

CTHF, you take a dozen select Scriptures and yell, "see this proves my point." Anyone can do that as evidenced by those that post on this board. The New Testament tells of a sovereign merciful God that chose His elect before the very foundation of the world. If you want to take credit for choosing Him with your "free will" then you are indeed "free" to make that decision. Try as you may, it is not about you or me or anyone else in God's creation, it is only about God and His soeverign will for His children.

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YES!

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So you can earn your way to heaven?

Paul does not nullify in Colossians 3:23-25 what he teaches elsewhere in Romans 6:23, namely that salvation is a gift. The reward is from God, but it is not salvation that He speaks of here, it is heavenly rewards.

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but unless you desire to play God, then you need to just be a faithful servant as he commands…

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Why would it matter what He commands? I don't need to do anything since my fate is sealed.

For the fourth time I would like for you to explain the verses I cited at the beginning of the thread and show me how I have made false assumptions.

As far as the second statement in that post you are going to need to explain that a little more.

AO - Where in the world was I yelling about anything. I am teaching what I beleive and you refuse to refute it with anything that would resemble "Thus sayeth the Lord..." or "It is written...". Oh wait that would be taking a single scripture and teaching someone with that. Apparently we can't do that by your reasoning.

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Why would it matter what He commands? I don't need to do anything since my fate is sealed.

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But the bible never teaches fatalism when it teaches God’s sovereignty. It teaches a very balanced view.

Philippians 2:11-13 Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure

Both that you work it out… Notice it does not say work ON your salvation… But that it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure…

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If you want to take credit for choosing Him with your "free will" then you are indeed "free" to make that decision

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Ah, but CenTex chose based on hearing the Word. You were picked without hearing the Word. Man, you're special.

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Why would it matter what He commands? I don't need to do anything since my fate is sealed.

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AGAIN, if God through His grace and mercy changes your heart that you may know and love Him, YOU WILL DO YOUR BEST TO FOLLOW WHAT HE COMMANDS! Why can't you guys grasp that simple fact?

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But the bible never teaches fatalism when it teaches God’s sovereignty

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Agreed. Our free choice absolutely has an effect on our salvation.

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Oh wait that would be taking a single scripture and teaching someone with that. Apparently we can't do that by your reasoning.

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Sure you can if your "teaching" does not contradict the context of the New Testament! Why did you choose God when some of your friends and kin said no? Were you just smarter, belong to the right church, went to the right schools? Why did you say yes and your neighbor say no?

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So you can earn your way to heaven?

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You are not reading anything I am posting.

Try this and remeber these are the words from the New Testament NOT from my own mouth. Refute them if you can with something other than YOUR words. You won't even give me scripture just conjecture.

Tell me what this means:

Revelation 22:14-17

14Blessed are those who do His commandments, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter through the gates into the city. 15But outside are dogs and sorcerers and sexually immoral and murderers and idolaters, and whoever loves and practices a lie.

16"I, Jesus, have sent My angel to testify to you these things in the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, the Bright and Morning Star."

17And the Spirit and the bride say, "Come!" And let him who hears say, "Come!" And let him who thirsts come. Whoever desires, let him take the water of life freely.

I'll be happy to tell you what it means.

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AGAIN, if God through His grace and mercy changes your heart that you may know and love Him, YOU WILL DO YOUR BEST TO FOLLOW WHAT HE COMMANDS! Why can't you guys grasp that simple fact?

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OK, but this will either happen or it won't. I have no say in the matter. So really, I (or anyone) have got absolutely nothing to worry about. Whatever happens happens.

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For the fourth time I would like for you to explain the verses I cited at the beginning of the thread and show me how I have made false assumptions.

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Ok Here ya go...


By God's grace we are saved and that grace is his gift - Ephesians 2:8-10

Agreed…



Christ is the author of that salvation (because of his perfection) to all who obey him - Hebrews 5:9

It does not teach that the obedience is the cause of the salvation, but that those who are saved are obedient.


He authored his Word that is the power of God unto salvation - Roman 1:16

Ok..


In His Word he tells us that if we hear His Word we have eternal life - John 5:24

Again, it does not teach that our determining to hear is the cause of eternal life, but that if we hear… Who gives eyes to see, and ears to hear?


He also tells us that whoever believes his word shall be saved - John 3:14-15

OK, who makes one able to believe? You assume ability.


Later in that same chapter Christ says that those who believe will practice truth - vs 21

That is true…


We are told to repent - Luke 13:3,Acts 17:29-31

Yes, but He grants that we repent. Acts 11:18 When they heard these things they fell silent. And they glorified God, saying, "Then to the Gentiles also God has granted repentance that leads to life."




We are told to confess - Romans 10:8-9
In verse 10 belief and confession are tied together.

Yes, He has ordained to Justify us by faith… Confessing is part of faith..


We are commanded to be baptized - Mark 16:16, Acts 2:38

Yes, He has ordained this as a sign and a seal.

We are commanded to be continue in obedience - Acts 14:21-22

Yes, He who saves us rules over us as king…


James 2:14-26 ties our works to our faith.

Yes, a true faith bears a good fruit of works…

We are told to love God with all our heart, soul, and mind - Matthew 22:37

Yes, that is the fulfillment of the Law. I love His Law, because He has made me born again!

Christ also tells us that if we do love him we will keep his commandments - John 14:15, 15:9-17

True! And I do love Him, because He first Loved me, and caused me to be born again to a living Hope in Christ Jesus!


He explains what the depths of this obedience must be - Matthew 5:19

Yes, but it does not teach that salvation is ultimately by our own self determination.


Our labors must be proper and there will be those who THINK they are doing the Lord's work but are not (like Saul) - Matthew 7:21-23

Right, perhaps even you or me, huh?


We are each responsible for knowing God's word and what is expected of us and the Word of God can be wrongly divided - II Timothy 2:15

Yes, as you have done…

Tell me how I am contradicting the New Testament. I've told you how I feel you are contradicting the New Testament.

As far as your other question:

2 Thessalonians 2:9-10

9The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders, 10and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

God gives it. We chose to receive it or reject it. If this were not so then the deception spoken of would have no bearing on us.

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You are not reading anything I am posting.

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Wrong! I asked, "so if you serve Him, you will be saved?

You gave a one word answer, "YES!"

A one-word answer, "YES!" You couldn't have made it any clearer!

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Agreed. Our free choice absolutely has an effect on our salvation.

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It is true that we are active in our conversion (repentance and faith), and in our sanctification, but before any of that we are elected, regenerated, called, before repentance and faith (which are His gifts too) All of those things we are passive in… Again, it is our honor that we participate in those ways, and yes, a believer can choose to sin, and not obey, and therefore be disciplined by the Lord, but He will chasten us, and He promises to complete the work that He began in us..

techguy, if by and through the MERCY of the Father you are elected unto salvation, then YES our sovereign God will glorify you with eternal rest in Him. Where should we lean? On God's mercy or our free will? Again, why did you say YES to God while some of your family and friends said no?

A one word answer FOLLOWED by scripture to back that up.

See...you read and hear only what you want.

Where does the New Testament show that baptism is an outward sign?

Are we pre-ordained to salvation?

Once we are saved can we fall away again?

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See...you read and hear only what you want.

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Did you not post the answer "yes!" to the question? You didn't qualify it at all, you simply said "Yes!" That one-word answer summarizes your position, you think you can "serve" your way to heaven. That is a blatant contradiction of the New Testament.

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why did you say YES to God while some of your family and friends said no?

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Why do some people choose to cheat on their wives and some do not?

Why did they reject the truth? Because they don't have a love for the truth.

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It is true that we are active in our conversion (repentance...

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So by "active", you mean I can choose to repent?

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you think you can "serve" your way to heaven.

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And you think it "just happens", regardless of our own choices.

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Why do some people choose to cheat on their wives and some do not?

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This is the best you can come up with? So you equate decisions regarding marital infidelity with a decision to accept Jesus Christ as your savior? If the subject matter were not so serious that answer would be laughable!

In other words, you don't have a good answer.

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Where does the New Testament show that baptism is an outward sign?

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Romans 4:11And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness that he had by faith while he was still uncircumcised. So then, he is the father of all who believe but have not been circumcised, in order that righteousness might be credited to them.

Colossians 2:11-12 In him you were also circumcised, in the putting off of the sinful nature, not with a circumcision done by the hands of men but with the circumcision done by Christ, having been buried with him in baptism and raised with him through your faith in the power of God, who raised him from the dead.

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Are we pre-ordained to salvation?

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Eph 1:4For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love 5he predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will— 6to the praise of his glorious grace, which he has freely given us in the One he loves. 7In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, in accordance with the riches of God's grace…11In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will, 12in order that we, who were the first to hope in Christ, might be for the praise of his glory.

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Once we are saved can we fall away again?

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John 10:28I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand. 29My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand.

1Pet 1:5who through faith are shielded by God's power until the coming of the salvation that is ready to be revealed in the last time…. 9for you are receiving the goal of your faith, the salvation of your souls.

2Ti 2:18who have wandered away from the truth. They say that the resurrection has already taken place, and they destroy the faith of some. 19Nevertheless, God's solid foundation stands firm, sealed with this inscription: "The Lord knows those who are his," and, "Everyone who confesses the name of the Lord must turn away from wickedness."

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Did you not post the answer "yes!" to the question? You didn't qualify it at all, you simply said "Yes!" That one-word answer summarizes your position, you think you can "serve" your way to heaven. That is a blatant contradiction of the New Testament.

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Didn't qualify my statement? So I have to give the scripture FIRST to back what I say? If you stopped reading after "yes" you have no desire to see what I have to say. You have no desire to weigh what others say against your beliefs with an open and honest heart.