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Are you speaking of works here? Paul is sure not!

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Not works of the old law. You are correct. He addressing issues with the old law that the church in Galatia was having problems with. See because under the New Law there is no command to be circumcised which was one of the largest issues facing the Galatians. Many, including Peter, were teaching that Gentiles who became Christians should be circumcised. This was NOT one of the commands given to them.

Now, I'll clarify the last statement you quoteed from me. Our faith in Christ is why we decide to be obedient to Him.

Are you going to address where Christ talks about works and how Paul contradicts that by your teachings?

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Are you going to address where Christ talks about works and how Paul contradicts that by your teachings?

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What in the world are you talking about? We are saved by works? Sure, that will be "rewards," but that has nothing to do with salvation. Paul does not contradict Christ, Paul contradicts salvation by works and that is consistent with the context of the entire New Testament!

EDIT: I almost forgot.

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Our faith in Christ is why we decide to be obedient to Him.

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I couldn't agree more!


[This message has been edited by Alpha and Omega (edited 5/25/2005 12:53p).]

What was Peter's answer on the day of pentecost to waht the Jews asked him? They said what must we do?

May I ask what was Peter's response? Hint Hint -- it's in Acts 2:38.

Ain't it ironic 77 that many of the folks that baptize their babies use those same Scriptures to validate their position?

No it's not ironic. They believe you must be bapitzed -- it's the who part they don't understand.

Repent and be Baptized was the answer Peter gave them. First off an infant can't repent, and he also has nothing to repent of.

I ask again is there a case in the New Testament where someone who didn't believe was baptized?

quote:

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What in the world are you talking about? We are saved by works? Sure, that will be "rewards," but that has nothing to do with salvation. Paul does not contradict Christ, Paul contradicts salvation by works and that is consistent with the context of the entire New Testament!

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You're kidding, right? Being judge by our works has nothing to do with our salvation?

And works will be "rewards"? Umm, ok.

Your concepts are hardly consistant with the entire New Tetstament. They are not even consistant with the whole of Galatians and I have pointed that out already. You chose to ignore that and you take away from the importance of faith AND works.

James 2:14-26 "14What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him? 15If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, 16and one of you says to them, "Depart in peace, be warmed and filled," but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit? 17Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.

18But someone will say, "You have faith, and I have works." Show me your faith without your works, and I will show you my faith by my works. 19You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe--and tremble! 20But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead? 21Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? 22Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect? 23And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, "Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness." And he was called the friend of God. 24You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.

25Likewise, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out another way?

26For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also. "

CTHF, as I stated before, you believe as you see fit. If you want to add works to your salvation, that is up to you. Paul made it clear in Galatians that your theology is a different gospel. It is evident that you are sold on that different gospel, so any further conversation with you regarding your decision will be nothing more than an exercise in utter futility. 12 pages of posts is more than enough!

I'll see fit because that's what the word of God says in James 2. If what's in the word of God (James 2) does not fit what you believe maybe you need to examine yourself.

[This message has been edited by 77 (edited 5/25/2005 5:31p).]

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If you want to add works to your salvation, that is up to you.

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Baptism is the work of the Lord, he washes sins away.

Believe is the work we have to do.

John 6:29
Jesus answered, "The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent."


You just turn to your wrong ideas about what others believe and try to make them stick to others. No one I have ever met in the church of Christ has the view that works alone get you anywhere. You are just mud slinging it seems to me.

Faith and works are "joined", baptism and salvation are "joined", the water and blood and spirit are "joined" in scripture. You want to explain things away to your own notion.

If you'd make a point that is less than random the discussion might progress. Your teachings go against what Christ and the Apostles taught. You miss the point of the letter to the Galatians.

I do agree that getting you to discuss this matter has been quite futile. You won't answer questions.

All,
Justification before God is a mystery. You will spend the rest of your lives debating freewill vs. predestination. Either can be supported by scripture. My opinion is that they are both true. I know that offends our logical mindset. The gospel isn't a formula - it's power from God to form and maintain a spiritual relationship with Him.

We choose Him, He chooses us, He knows beforehand what our choice will be, does His pre-knowledge of our choice force us to choose accordingly? - The kingdom of God is shrouded in mystery (and apparent contradiction).

There are Godly people full of the Holy Spirit on both sides of the debate. If that is true (and it is) there must be truth on both sides of the theological spectrum. Preach the love and grace of Jesus and let God be concerned about the choice question.

GA92, I agree that there is a paradox. I am chosen to have a free will that responded to God. I believe that God did not simply foreknow, that He predestined. I also believe that I freely responded to the call/conviction of the Holy Spirit and was born again.

However, this argument centers around the idea of the place of water baptism. Many believe that it is a part of the initial saving experience, and without it you are hell bound. Many, as in me, believe that it is a command that should be obeyed(as all commands from God), that represents what has already happened in the born again experience. \

So I do agree that they(the salvation-baptizers)follow the Holy Spirit; they can not reply in kind. For, to them, since I was not water baptized believing that it is part of the salvation experience, then I am not born again, and therefore, cannot have the Spitit of God in my heart or life.

It's a bit hard to get together when one group believes that you are not in the group.

[This message has been edited by The Lone Stranger (edited 5/26/2005 7:04a).]

I can see how if you believe in unconditional particular election that it wouldn't matter whether you chose your baptism or if your parents did it for you. This is where believing one thing (right or wrong) leads to other beliefs (right or wrong) down the road.



[This message has been edited by ttechguy (edited 5/27/2005 3:36p).]