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Get well soon. I'm out until tomorrow.

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Thanks,

Good night!

Your fate is never sealed until the very end, when you die. Matthew 10:22 speaks about enduring to the end. You are free to either accept God's grace for your salvation, or to toss it aside (John 12:48), like Saul did in the OT, and Judas did in the NT. God will read your heart at the time of your death. If you've lived a Godly life, and tried your best to follow God's teachings, then you get on the up elevator. If you've done the opposite, you get the trap door down...Simple as that.

Texasag73

texasag73

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Your fate is never sealed until the very end, when you die.

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You need to start reading some Augustine…

http://www.ewtn.com/library/PATRISTC/PNI5-12.htm

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God will read your heart at the time of your death. If you've lived a Godly life, and tried your best to follow God's teachings, then you get on the up elevator. If you've done the opposite, you get the trap door down...Simple as that.

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This sounds like salvation by works!

There is no good work that a man does that God is not ultimatly responsable for.



[This message has been edited by Notafraid (edited 5/17/2005 8:46a).]

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If you've lived a Godly life, and tried your best to follow God's teachings, then you get on the up elevator. If you've done the opposite, you get the trap door down...Simple as that.

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Is this not the very definition of salvation by works?

Does God know before you're born which elevator you will get on?

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Does God know before you're born which elevator you will get on?

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Sure, He's seen what choice you will make. But that doesn't mean He chose (for better or worse) for you.

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There is no good work that a man does that God is not responsable for.

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Ironically, it's you guys who don't give God enough credit. He is good enough that we can love and obey Him without being forced into it.

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Sure, He's seen what choice you will make. But that doesn't mean He chose (for better or worse) for you.

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But the Bible teaches that He has mercy on some, and not others… Did we choose God, or did he choose us?

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Ironically, it's you guys who don't give God enough credit. He is good enough that we can love and obey Him without being forced into it.

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God does not force us to do anything. He makes us a new creation! The natural man is spiritually dead, and finds the things of God foolishness (1cor 2:14), but the regenerated heart is a heart that loves God. It is a totally new creature with a new set of attractants and repellents. It is then that we have eyes to see, and ears to hear, and a heart to freely love God.

CTHF, if you say that baptism is part of the salvation process, then you have contradicted both New Testament and the Old Testament. While the New Testament brings our Savior front and center in God's plan of salvation, the Old Testament tells us of God's impending MERCY and when one makes baptism equal to the shed blood of Christ you have diluted that Mercy and the shed blood of our Savior. So, do you believe that baptism is part of the salvation process?

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But the Bible teaches that He has mercy on some, and not others

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Of course. He has mercy on those who choose Him.

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God does not force us to do anything. He makes us a new creation! The natural man is spiritually dead, and finds the things of God foolishness (1cor 2:14), but the regenerated heart is a heart that loves God. It is a totally new creature with a new set of attractants and repellents. It is then that we have eyes to see, and ears to hear, and a heart to freely love God.

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While that's a lovely prequalifier about God not forcing us to do anything, you continue to say that man cannot choose God. We're either forced or we're not. There's no two ways about it.


[This message has been edited by ttechguy (edited 5/17/2005 8:56a).]

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There's no two ways about it.

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There is another way that you seem to ignore! It's the Mercy of the Father and that is the Good News of the Gospel.

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CTHF, if you say that baptism is part of the salvation process, then you have contradicted both New Testament and the Old Testament.

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A&O, Actually the Baptism of the Holy Spirit (regeneration) is a part of our salvation. Keep in mind that Augustine has the sign and the reality in mind when he writes the word baptism.

Frustrating...

4 pages of 3 guys saying the same thing over and over again and Alpha & Omega riding NotAfraids coat tail.

Reading this "debate" I have actually grown to appreciate the frustration of some of the "atheist" members of the board when it comes to NotAfraid. Most of his posts are well thought out and supportable, but every now and then he throws out something like "we can only desire what we desire" and you are left scratching your head.

While this is a great discussion and I have generally enjoyed reading the two different takes on scripture, I think it is important that we accept that there may be truths on each side of the debate. Its clear NotAfriad is adamant about his position and does an admirable job of supporting it as does CTHF. The debate quickly loses value when sarcasm is used and jabs are taken at the opposing side.

nice work NA and CTHF...

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Of course. He has mercy on those who choose Him..

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But He is the one who chooses us! If it were us choosing Him (like you being better than your neighbor), we would have something to boast about! When are you going to submit to what the Word of God says?!

1Cor 1:26For consider your calling, brethren, that there were not many wise according to the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble; 27but God has chosen the foolish things of the world to shame the wise, and God has chosen the weak things of the world to shame the things which are strong, 28and the base things of the world and the despised God has chosen, the things that are not, so that He may nullify the things that are, 29so that no man may boast before God. 30But by His doing you are in Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God, and righteousness and sanctification, and redemption, 31so that, just as it is written, "LET HIM WHO BOASTS, BOAST IN THE LORD."

NotAfraid, yep, Baptism of the Holy Spirit and water baptism are 2 different things, and I see where you are coming from. It appears you now have the makings of a fan club with Tonka76 posting his compliments, so I have to ask you. Do you mind if I continue to ride your coattails?

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But He is the one who chooses us! If it were us choosing Him (like you being better than your neighbor), we would have something to boast about!

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I see it exactly the opposite. My neighbor is just as good as me. In fact, he has the same chance at salvation as I do. Jesus died for my sins AND my neighbors. Not so in your world. You get preferential treatment over your neighbor, who is not afforded the same opportunity.

generally speaking I am pretty guarded when it comes to NA's posts as I usually find them in the form of some type of attack. I just appreciate the way he has handled this discussion. If that makes me a member of the fan club then so be it. Dont expect me to pay dues.

Tonka76

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I have actually grown to appreciate the frustration of some of the "atheist" members of the board when it comes to NotAfraid. Most of his posts are well thought out and supportable, but every now and then he throws out something like "we can only desire what we desire" and you are left scratching your head...

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Sorry that I am not smart enough to please you. That’s really not my goal though. My only point there was that people only do what they desire to do. The scriptures teach that natural man does not desire God. You can not change what attracts you and what repels you.


Here is part of a good article by RL Dabney discussing some of that...

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But men cheat themselves with the notion that what they call free-will may choose to respond to valid outward inducements placed before it, so that gospel truth and rational free-will cooperating with it may originate the great change instead of sovereign, efficacious divine grace. Now, any plain mind, if it will think, can see that this is delusive. Is any kind of an object actual inducement to any sort of agent? No, indeed. Is fresh grass an inducement to a tiger? Is bloody flesh an inducement to a lamb to eat? Is a nauseous drug an inducement to a child's palate; or ripe sweet fruit? Useless loss an inducement to the merchant; or useful gain? Are contempt and reproach inducements to aspiring youth; or honor and fame ? Manifestly some kinds of objects only are inducements to given sorts of agents; and the opposite objects are repellants. Such is the answer of common sense. Now, what has decided which class of objects shall attract, and which shall repel? Obviously it is the agents' own original, subjective dispositions which have determined this. It is the lamb's nature which has determined that the fresh grass, and not the bloody flesh, shall be the attraction to it. It is human nature in the soul which has determined that useful gain, and not useless loss, shall be inducement to the merchant. Now, then, to influence a man by inducement you must select an object which his own natural disposition has made attractive to him; by pressing the opposite objects on him you only repel him; and the presentation of the objects can never reverse the man's natural disposition, because this has determined in advance which objects will be attractions and which repellants. Effects cannot reverse the very causes on which they themselves depend. The complexion of the child cannot Re-determine the complexion of the father. Now, facts and Scripture teach us (see 2d. Section) that man's original disposition is as freely, as entirely, against God's will and godliness and in favor of self-will and sin. Therefore, godliness can never be of itself inducement, but only repulsion, to the unregenerate soul. Men cheat themselves; they think they are induced by the selfish advantages of an imaginary heaven, an imaginary selfish escape from hell. But this is not regeneration; it is but the sorrows of the world that worketh death, and the hope of the hypocrite that perisheth.

The different effects of the same preached gospel at the same time and place prove that regeneration is from sovereign grace: "Some believed the things which mere spoken, and some believed not." (Acts xviii. 24). This is because, "As many as were ordained to eternal life believed." (Acts xiii. 48). Often those remain unchanged whose social virtues, good habits, and amiability should seem to offer least obstruction to the gospel; while some old, profane, sensual, and hardened sinners become truly converted, whose wickedness and long confirmed habits of sinning must have presented the greatest obstruction to gospel truth. Like causes should produce like effects. Had outward gospel inducements been the real causes, these results of preaching would be impossible. The facts show that the gospel inducements were only instruments, and that in the real conversion the agency was almighty grace.

The erroneous theory of conversion is again powerfully refuted by those cases, often seen, in which gospel truth has remained powerless over certain men for ten, twenty, or fifty years, and at last has seemed to prevail for their genuine conversion. The gospel, urged by the tender lips of a mother, proved too weak to overcome the self-will of the boy's heart. Fifty years afterwards that same gospel seemed to convert a hardened old man! There are two well-known laws of the human soul which show this to be impossible. One is, that facts and inducements often, but fruitlessly, presented to the soul, become weak and trite from vain repetition. The other is, that men's active appetences grow stronger continually by their own indulgence. Here, then, is the case: The gospel when presented to the sensitive boy must have had much more force than it could have to the old man after it had grown stale to him by fifty years of vain repetition. The old man's love of sin must have grown greatly stronger than the boy's by fifty years of constant indulgence. Now how comes it, that a given moral influence which was too weak to overcome the boy's sinfulness has overcome the old man's carnality when the influences had become so much weaker and the resistance to it so much stronger. This is impossible. It was the finger of God, and not the mere moral influence, which wrought the mighty change. Let us suppose that fifty years ago the reader had seen me visit his rural sanctuary, when the grand oaks which now shade it were but lithe saplings. He saw me make an effort to tear one of them with my hands from its seat; but it proved too strong for me. Fifty years after, he and I meet at the same sacred spot, and he sees me repeat my attempt upon the same tree, now grown to be a monarch of the grove. He will incline to laugh me to scorn: "He attempted that same tree fifty years ago, when he was in his youthful prime and it was but a sapling, but he could not move it. Does the old fool think to rend it from its seat now' when age has so diminished his muscle, and the sapling has grown to a mighty tree?" But let us suppose that the reader saw that giant of the grove come up in my aged hands. He would no longer laugh. He would stand awe-struck. He would conclude that this must be the hand of God, not of man. How vain is it to seek to break the force of this demonstration by saying that at last the moral influence of the gospel had received sufficient accession from attendant circumstances, from clearness and eloquence of presentation, to enable it to do its work? What later eloquence of the pulpit can rival that of the Christian mother presenting the cross in the tender accents of love. Again, the story of the cross, the attractions of heaven, ought to be immense, even when stated in the simplest words of childhood. How trivial and paltry are any additions which mere human rhetoric can make to what ought to be the infinite force of the naked truth.

But the surest proof is that of Scripture. This everywhere asserts that the sinner's regeneration is by sovereign, almighty grace. One class of texts presents those which describe the sinner's prior condition as one of "blindness," Eph. iv. 18; " of stony heartedness," Ezek. xxxvi. 26; "of impotency," Rom. v. 6; "of enmity," Rom. viii. 7; "of inability, John vi. 44, and Rom. vii. 18; "of deadness," Eph. ii. 1-5. Let no one exclaim that these are "figures of speech." Surely the Holy Spirit, when resorting to figures for the very purpose of giving a more forcible expression to truth, does not resort to a deceitful rhetoric! Surely he selects his figures because of the correct parallel between them and his truth! Now, then, the blind man cannot take part in the very operation which is to open his eyes. The hard stone cannot be a source of softness. The helpless paralytic cannot begin his own restoration. Enmity against God cannot choose love for him, The dead corpse of Lazarus could have no agency in recalling the vital spirit into itself. After Christ's almighty power restored it, the living man could respond to the Savior's command and rise and come forth.

The figures which describe the almighty change prove the same truth. It is described (Ps. cxix. 18) as an opening of the blind eyes to the law; as a new creation; (Ps. li. 10; Eph. ii. 5) as a pew birth; (John iii. 3) as a quickening or resurrection (making alive); Eph. 1 18, and ii. 10). The man blind of cataract does not join the surgeon in couching his own eye; nor does the sunbeam begin and perform the surgical operation; that must take place in order for the light to enter and produce vision.

The timber is shaped by the carpenter; it does not shape itself, and does not become an implement until he gives it the desired shape. The infant does not procreate itself, but must be born of its parents in order to become a living agent.

The corpse does not restore life to itself; after life is restored if becomes a living agent. Express scriptures teach the same doctrine. in Jer. xxxi. 18, Ephraim is heard praying thus: "Turn thou to me and I shall be turned." In John 1.12, we are taught that believers are born "not of blood, nor of the will of man, nor of the will of the flesh, but of God." In John vi. 44, Christ assures us that "No man can come to me except the Father which hath sent me draw him." And in chap. xv. 16, " Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that you should go and bring forth fruit.'' In Eph. ii. 10, "For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which Christ hath fore ordained that we should walk in them."

It is objected that this doctrine of almighty grace would destroy man's free-agency. This is not true. All men whom God does not regenerate retain their natural freedom unimpaired by anything which he does to them.

It is true that these use their freedom, as in variably, as voluntarily, by choosing their self-will and unregenerate state. But in doing this they choose in perfect accordance with their own preference, and this the only kind of free-agency known to men of common sense. The unregenerate choose just what they prefer, and therefore choose freely; but so long as not renewed by almighty grace, they always prefer to remain unregenerate, because it is fallen man's nature. The truly regenerate do not lose their free-agency by effectual calling, but regain a truer and higher freedom; for the almighty power which renews them does not force them into a new line of conduct contrary to their own preferences, but reverses the original disposition itself which regulates preference. Under this renewed disposition they now act just as freely as when they were voluntary sinners, but far more reasonably and happily. For they act the new and right preference, which almighty grace has put in place of the old one.

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I recommend that you read the whole article…

http://www.reformed.org/calvinism/5Points_Dabney.html

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In fact, he has the same chance at salvation as I do.

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So tech guy, answer the question. Why did you say yes and your neighbor say no?

A&O

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NotAfraid, yep, Baptism of the Holy Spirit and water baptism are 2 different things, and I see where you are coming from. It appears you now have the makings of a fan club with Tonka76 posting his compliments, so I have to ask you. Do you mind if I continue to ride your coattails?

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Keep in mind that the things are inextricably related, the visible sign to the invisible reality. So much so that Augustine conflates them into one thing in his language. As far as coat tails, only a person who does not understand would write that. You are quite your own man, with a slightly different angle on many of the things that we even agree on. Now, when we begin a thing like this, it might seem like quite the 1 -2 punch to someone, and it often is, but you are certainly not some kind of lackey of mine, but more a reformed peer. I don’t think I could ever really attract a lackey, because I am an equal opportunity guy. Even you and I have had our disagreements. Everybody gets some disagreement and agreement fro me… I even disagree with myself sometimes.

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I see it exactly the opposite. My neighbor is just as good as me. In fact, he has the same chance at salvation as I do.

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Then you have a problem with the Word of God, because since you made the right choice, and He did not, then you have something inside of you that is better than Him! You have something to boast about!..This flys in the face of what the scritprues teach!



29so that no man may boast before God. 30But by His doing you are in Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God, and righteousness and sanctification, and redemption, 31so that, just as it is written, "LET HIM WHO BOASTS, BOAST IN THE LORD."

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Jesus died for my sins AND my neighbors.

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FOR WHO DID CHRIST DIE?

John Owen


The Father imposed His wrath due unto, and the Son underwent punishment for, either:

All the sins of all men.

All the sins of some men, or

Some of the sins of all men.
In which case it may be said:

That if the last be true, all men have some sins to answer for, and so, none are saved.

That if the second be true, then Christ, in their stead suffered for all the sins of all the elect in the whole world, and this is the truth.

But if the first be the case, why are not all men free from the punishment due unto their sins?

You answer, "Because of unbelief."

I ask, Is this unbelief a sin, or is it not? If it be, then Christ suffered the punishment due unto it, or He did not. If He did, why must that hinder them more than their other sins for which He died? If He did not, He did not die for all their sins!"



[This message has been edited by Notafraid (edited 5/17/2005 9:35a).]

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I recommend that you read the whole article…

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sheesh..I'll do it, but have to get back to you in a week or so.

my last comment on the "coat tails"...
I dont mind the one-two punch at all, but would appreciate something of substance from the "two punch" atleast occasionally. A&O usually has good things to say but his particpation in this discussion has been limited to "why did you choose?" and "you just dont understand the God's Mercy".

As a Christian that for themost parts sits on the Arminian side of this discussion, I am still looking to learn from these discussions. Unfortunately, the sarcasm gets in the way of the good stuff said on both sides. Just an observation.

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then you have something inside of you that is better than Him! You have something to boast about!

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Is this a joke? My neighbor and I both have the same chance at salvation. I have no better a shot than he. Now, if I had an inherent advantage over him at receiving salvation....like maybe I was arbitrarily picked...then that would give me something to boast about.

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sheesh..I'll do it, but have to get back to you in a week or so.

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come on..it won’t take that long.. it will be good for you!

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my last comment on the "coat tails"...
I dont mind the one-two punch at all, but would appreciate something of substance from the "two punch" atleast occasionally. A&O usually has good things to say but his particpation in this discussion has been limited to "why did you choose?" and "you just dont understand the God's Mercy".

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I will speak with him for you so that he might pick it up in quality a bit so that you will be properly entertained! It could be possible that he was feeling a little tired and worn out because that is the general sensation of very old men like him..

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As a Christian that for themost parts sits on the Arminian side of this discussion, I am still looking to learn from these discussions. Unfortunately, the sarcasm gets in the way of the good stuff said on both sides. Just an observation.

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Read that article.. It is very meaty and substantive… You need to blast through it, and if you are hungry for more, I have an online book to turn you on to!

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Is this a joke? My neighbor and I both have the same chance at salvation. I have no better a shot than he.

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Then what in you rose above Him? Something inside of you had what it took, and something inside of him did not…

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Now, if I had an inherent advantage over him at receiving salvation....like maybe I was arbitrarily picked...then that would give me something to boast about.

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But it was not arbitrary. Didn’t you read the scriptures that I posted? God chose weak, despised, nothings to save… It was for the purposes of His own Glory that he chooses to have mercy on some and not others. That is not arbitrary.

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As a Christian that for themost parts sits on the Arminian side of this discussion, I am still looking to learn from these discussions

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The answer is simple then, skip my posts and concentrate on Notafraid's posts. You can learn much from what he knows!

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Something inside of you had what it took, and something inside of him did not…

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Isn't that your position?

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Isn't that your position?

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Nope.. I never would have chosen God! It is strictly By His grace and mercy that I am in Christ Jesus.


So what inside you made you choose God where your neighbor fell short?



[This message has been edited by Notafraid (edited 5/17/2005 9:55a).]

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Nope.. I never would have chosen God! It is strictly By His grace and mercy that I am in Christ Jesus.

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And your neighbor never had a chance? Why do you get a chance and your neighbor doesn't. Why are you so special?

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And your neighbor never had a chance? Why do you get a chance and your neighbor doesn't. Why are you so special?

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I already answered this when I said this…

”But it was not arbitrary. Didn’t you read the scriptures that I posted? God chose weak, despised, nothings to save… It was for the purposes of His own Glory that he chooses to have mercy on some and not others. That is not arbitrary.”

Keep in mind that the neighbor gets what he wants…Life without God. God is not in heaven stiff arming people who really want to be with Him.

Good morning folks. I hope you all had a good night' rest.

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Keep in mind that the neighbor gets what he wants…Life without God. God is not in heaven stiff arming people who really want to be with Him.

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No need for a stiff arm, they were never given free will to choose.

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Good morning folks. I hope you all had a good night' rest.

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Good morning. I am still a bit under the weather. I am having problems getting motivated too. I have some billable hours I could get in with some web work for a client, but I keep focusing on this Texags forum. Tell me.. Is it worthwhile?

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No need for a stiff arm, they were never given free will to choose.

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They were free to choose what they desired. They are free to choose things in accordance with their nature, but unfortunately that nature is enslaved to sin. Since Adams fall mans natural disposition of enmity against God's will, and set upon a preference for their own self-will, that being against God.

Didn’t you see it clearly in the words and arguments of the naturalists in the conversations that I had with them? It is the same with all, that when pressed, they will act and speak in the same manor of the naturalists on this board did.

Any time the Word of God is discussed it is worth while. Obviously there are some differences of opinion in this matter. But if we study with an open and honest heart and if we teach and learn with the love of God in our hearts there is nothing bad that can come out of that.

I appreciate that most of the discussion has been done without people getting angry or having their feelings hurt. There have been some mild shots taken but generally the discussion has been amicable.

I'm not going to belabor the points I have made much longer. I have put forth what I beleive and why I believe it. There are just a couple more points I want to make and then I'll be done (for now I suspect). Other issues may arise that I'd like to address but for the most part I think we have all put our arguments and ideas out there and folks have plenty of food for thought.

But it has absolutely been a worth-while discussion and I am glad that it has taken place.