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They were free to choose what they desired.

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But there's only one possible outcome, regardless of how you phrase it. That's not a choice, and that's not free will.

CenTexHornsFan,

That's a great attitude! It is an encouraging attitude as well... Namely that His Word does not come back void… I believe that indeed all things work to the Good of those who love our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, and are called according to His purposes.

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But there's only one possible outcome, regardless of how you phrase it. That's not a choice, and that's not free will.

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Can you breath under water? If not, then you are not free! You are simply predisposed to breath air! Your freewill has been usurped! I would suggest shaking your fist at heaven..

Is more than one outcome possible?

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Is more than one outcome possible?

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Not unless the Lord changes you, and gives you a set of gills! But if you can not survive in outer space, then he has usurped your free will to do that as well!


John 6:65 He went on to say, "This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled him." 66From this time many of his disciples turned back and no longer followed him.



[This message has been edited by Notafraid (edited 5/17/2005 10:46a).]

Dang all of you for going through this without me!!!

Bunch of jerks!

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This is the best you can come up with? So you equate decisions regarding marital infidelity with a decision to accept Jesus Christ as your savior? If the subject matter were not so serious that answer would be laughable!

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We are talking about steps necessary for salvation--choosing, among others--CTHF, ttechguy) or if God did it all with a big Chalk Board in the Sky before anyone of us showed up(Not, A&O).

God: Let's see, this guy's in, that guy's out, this guy's a coin flip . . . Oh, Dr. Mephisto. What a jerk. He's wwwaaaayyyy out. I'll have A&O remind him on texags . . .


IF we are a part of Christ's body, then Christ himself used the marriage analogy for his relationship (bridegroom) to his church (bride).

So ttechguy's example wasn't such a bad one after all.

This is all pointing to the idea of do we have free will.

God's salvation is made free to those who choose him. From the beginning of the world He had ordained it so.

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God: Let's see, this guy's in, that guy's out, this guy's a coin flip . . .

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This is a straw man. I have pointed out again and again that the scriptures teach it’s not arbitrary.

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God's salvation is made free to those who choose him. From the beginning of the world He had ordained it so.

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This view fails to take serious the words of Scripture that say that God elects, and God chooses. It reduces it down to God chooses those who choose Him (oh glorious soverign man…) Or like “The Lord helps those who help themselves”. Of course this view tries to get God off the hook for damning people, but even with foreknowledge, He foreknows those who won’t choose Him, He still let’s them be born anyway, knowing that they are going to perish.


[This message has been edited by Notafraid (edited 5/17/2005 11:27a).]

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This is a straw man. I have pointed out again and again that the scriptures teach it’s not arbitrary.

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Let's see . . . Humor? Meet Notafraid. Notafraid? Meet Humor.

Geez, we all know God doesn't have a Divine Chalk Board!


We all know God would use a Dry Erase.


But how does God create being to damned? ttechguy said it well. What's the point of teaching? Of trying to spread the word? Of anything?

Because He chooses it to be so? I think there are some mysteries to God that man will ever strive for. I just don't think Salvation is one of them.

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This view fails to take serious the words of Scripture that say that God elects, and God chooses.

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No. It just doesn't mean to me that He pulled your name out of a Hat, rolled dice, or cast lots for eternal beings. This is my problem with the way you interpret this. God did choose. I believe he forordained that those who seek and obey Him would be the elect.

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It reduces it down to God chooses those who choose Him (oh glorious soverign man…)

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There is nothing glorious in me seeing a path through fire to safety and choosing it.

Nothing noble in me for recognizing and willingly submitting myself to God. The nobility is His in allowing it.

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Of course this view tries to get God off the hook for damning people,

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God doesn't need my help. I'm not trying to help God out. I just belive that man is free to choose God or reject him. Me choosing to be obedient to God is in no way a diminsidment of his saving grace. I know you will say only God draws, but you are interpreting that in a way that I don't. Same Bibles and all. Go figure.

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He foreknows those who won’t choose Him, He still let’s them be born anyway, knowing that they are going to perish.

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They are free to choose otherwise.

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Not unless the Lord changes you, and gives you a set of gills! But if you can not survive in outer space, then he has usurped your free will to do that as well!

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OK, so He didn't create my body so that I can fly like a bird either. That is not analogous to having no free will to obey or disobey God.

NotA - I'll assume that you have a wife and that you don't cheat on her. Why do you choose not to cheat but your neighbor cheats? Seriously.

It was said earlier in the thread that God grants repentance to those that he chooses and that others are not chosen so that God’s grace and mercy becomes evident. I believe that this is false for this reason.

2 Peter 3:9 reads:
The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.

If God made the choice of who would obey His commands and who would not then this verse indicates that He would select EVRYONE and all people would come to repentance. It has also been said of me in this discussion that I am limiting God’s mercy and grace with my stance. Hardly. With the view that we are creatures of free will, able to make the choice to serve God or not serve God then the Hope of Salvation is open to all who choose to access what God, through his grace and mercy, has given to us. If HE chooses who will obey and who won’t then his grace and mercy is limited to those whom he has chosen and is NOT readily available to all, thus limiting his grace and mercy.

Later in this same chapter Peter writes:

10But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will melt with fervent heat; both the earth and the works that are in it will be burned up. 11Therefore, since all these things will be dissolved, what manner of persons ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness, 12looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be dissolved, being on fire, and the elements will melt with fervent heat? 13Nevertheless we, according to His promise, look for new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells. 14Therefore, beloved, looking forward to these things,be diligent to be found by Him in peace, without spot and blameless; 15and consider that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation--as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given to him, has written to you, 16as also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which untaught and unstable people twist to their own destruction, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures. 17You therefore, beloved, since you know this beforehand, beware lest you also fall from your own steadfastness, being led away with the error of the wicked; 18but grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To Him be the glory both now and forever. Amen.

Our conduct (how we act and the things we do) is crucial. This is one of several warnings in the New Testament about making sure we are right in our conduct and actions in this world. Peter also warns that we should not be led away from righteousness by those who are teaching false doctrine. Now, if we are not free to make choices regarding our obedience why the warnings about being led astray? Why the warnings about our conduct being what it should be? If God decides that we are going to be obedient there would be no need to warn us about sinning. God would already take care of that.

Paul writes to Timothy in his second letter and tells him in chapter 4:

1 I charge you therefore before God and the Lord Jesus Christ, who will judge the living and the dead at His appearing and His kingdom: 2Preach the word! Be ready in season and out of season. Convince, rebuke, exhort, with all longsuffering and teaching.

Why would people need convincing, or need to be rebuked, or exhorted and why would we need be longsuffering? Without people having freewill there would be no need to convince them of anything. God would convince them and our teaching of them and our preaching of the Word would not be a factor.

Continuing, he writes:
3For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine, but according to their own desires, because they have itching ears, they will heap up for themselves teachers; 4and they will turn their ears away from the truth, and be turned aside to fables. 5But you be watchful in all things, endure afflictions, do the work of an evangelist, fulfill your ministry.

Paul warns Timothy that the Christians he is working with will change from enduring sound doctrine to NOT enduring sound doctrine. He tells him that the time is coming when this will occur, not that he is already in that time. Again, more warnings that the actions of these Christians will change.

I’ll say this because I may not have done a very good job of clarifying this point:

We have all sinned are imperfect creatures. But, through God’s grace and mercy he sent his Son, the Perfect Sacrifice, to die so that we might have salvation. If we are obedient then God gives us salvation I do not build up credits toward that salvation by doing good works. I do the good works because God has commanded me to do them. I am obedient to His plan of salvation because he has commanded it. He tells us that being obedient is how we access his grace and mercy NOT by being the lucky ones he picks for that salvation. When the children of Israel quit being obedient they were punished. Their lack of obedience caused them to no longer be his chosen people. Now his chosen people are those who are obedient to his word. He chooses to save those who are obedient. Those who are not obedient are not chosen.

Jesus himself tells us about those who hear His Word but reject it in Matthew 12:44-50:

44Then Jesus cried out and said, "He who believes in Me, believes not in Me but in Him who sent Me. 45And he who sees Me sees Him who sent Me. 46I have come as a light into the world, that whoever believes in Me should not abide in darkness. 47And if anyone hears My words and does not believe, I do not judge him; for I did not come to judge the world but to save the world. 48He who rejects Me, and does not receive My words, has that which judges him--the word that I have spoken will judge him in the last day. 49For I have not spoken on My own authority; but the Father who sent Me gave Me a command, what I should say and what I should speak. 50And I know that His command is everlasting life. Therefore, whatever I speak, just as the Father has told Me, so I speak."

This clearly shows that there will be people who hear His word and will reject it. They reject it because they are creatures who have been given free will by the almighty God. God wants EVERYONE to repent and be saved but not everyone will. As a matter of fact very few people will. In the Sermon on the Mount Christ says this:

Matthew 7:13-14
13"Enter by the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and there are many who go in by it. 14Because narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it.

There are two paths that people will follow. One is broad and leads to destruction and there will be many on that path. One is narrow and leads to life and few will find it. The path won’t find them. THEY will find the path. There are two paths and we must CHOOSE which path we will follow.

After giving the parable of the workers in the vineyard Christ says this:

Matthew 20:16
16So the last will be first, and the first last.For many are called, but few chosen.

Few are chosen because few are obedient.

Later, in Matthew 22:14 Christ again says:
”For many are called but few are chosen.”

Again, in this parable the king called many people to his feast. Most chose not to attend the feast. One of the men called responded to the feast but did not respond appropriately (i.e., was not dressed appropriately). He was cast into outer darkness for this. More examples from Christ of people making choices regarding spiritual things.

Who God saves is not my choice but His. But he DOES tell us who he chooses to save and it is those who are obedient to his commands.

God does not need me to make excuses for Him. People will be cast into eternal darkness and will be separated from Him for all eternity. He does not apologized for this. He warns about it and tells us how to avoid it. We must obey or we will be condemned. Again, he chooses to save those who are obedient. We choose which master we will serve (Matthew 6:24).

I'll close with this scripture:
Romans 1:16-17
For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes, for the Jew first and also for the Greek. 17For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith; as it is written, "The just shall live by faith."


[This message has been edited by CenTexHornsFan (edited 5/17/2005 12:17p).]

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Let's see . . . Humor? Meet Notafraid. Notafraid? Meet Humor.

Geez, we all know God doesn't have a Divine Chalk Board!

We all know God would use a Dry Erase.

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The Daily Show often uses humor to push certain things as true. I recognized the humor, but the joke had an implication that was a straw man, and it was not really that funny either, but I left that part out…

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But how does God create being to damned? ttechguy said it well. What's the point of teaching? Of trying to spread the word? Of anything?

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I thought you said you read this thread?... If you have, then you did a poor job. I already said that God not only ordained who would be saved, but how. Faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God. God honors us by allowing us who are “under the sun” (for those who know Lamentations) to participate in the way he has ordained that His sheep (for those who know John 10) would come to faith. Namely through the preaching of the Word.
For you to be fatalist about it is certainly not to take the Biblical view. Just because God speaks to us about His sovereignty, is no excuse for you to cease believing in His Word, in the same way that you ceased to believe in His Word when it didn’t fit the ideal of your unbiblical philosophical construct of what it takes for human accountability.

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Because He chooses it to be so? I think there are some mysteries to God that man will ever strive for. I just don't think Salvation is one of them.

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This doesn’t even make sense. You have made some assumptions from out of your humanistic views about justice, and accountability, and you ignore scriptures that teach contrary to it, and embrace ones that you think teach otherwise.

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No. It just doesn't mean to me that He pulled your name out of a Hat, rolled dice, or cast lots for eternal beings.

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I already told you that this was not correct. I have shown scriptures on this board saying that it’s not correct, but not only do you not believe the truth, you in the most willful manor continue to assert what you think helps your unbiblical arguments. Go ahead and keep asserting that my position that I back up with scripture is not what it is, but that it’s arbitrary, but be warned, that I will keep exposing what you are doing when you do it.

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This is my problem with the way you interpret this. God did choose. I believe he forordained that those who seek and obey Him would be the elect.

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Gee… if it only just said that, you’d have something, but that is totally out of context with the verses, because the point (and I am speaking here of the 1Cor 1 verses) of those verses IS that it’s wholly because of Him that you are in Christ Jesus, so that no one could boast… If it was Him choosing you because you chose Him, then you got some boasting material… I know you have in the past had ways of shutting off certain brain cells so as to convince yourself that it’s not something worthy of boasting about, because it is such a tiny tiny little bit of self determination compared to God’s large part, but for those who think more straight forward, and honest about it, for them I must say that even the tiniest of contingencies like that that can upset the whole of salvation, is as powerful as the whole, actually more powerful, because it is the ultimate determining factor. IN your view mans tiny tiny will, is yet the sovereign force in His salvation. What a glorious and boastable thing!

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There is nothing glorious in me seeing a path through fire to safety and choosing it.

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Oh but there is, when your neighbor saw the same path, or perhaps he even hear the gospel all the more, the knocking was even louder! The pathway was even made a bit wider by the Lord, yet He remained in his spot! He was not as smart as you to see the flames! He did not see the good deal or the peril! Come on! That means there is something better in and of you!
You see how dishonestly you continue to try and propose things! Even as your dishonest with the “it was only a joke”, discounting the purpose of it!

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Nothing noble in me for recognizing and willingly submitting myself to God. The nobility is His in allowing it.

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Again, why didn’t the neighbor recognize it? Could it be that you were given eyes to see?...

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God doesn't need my help. I'm not trying to help God out. I just belive that man is free to choose God or reject him. Me choosing to be obedient to God is in no way a diminsidment of his saving grace. I know you will say only God draws, but you are interpreting that in a way that I don't. Same Bibles and all. Go figure.

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It’s not His saving grace when it’s YOU who are the deciding factor! It’s your good decision making! It’s your good and glorious recognition skills! Only that is never taught in the scriptures at all…

^
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100% agreement with CTHF.

[This message has been edited by Dr. Mephisto (edited 5/17/2005 12:22p).]

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OK, so He didn't create my body so that I can fly like a bird either. That is not analogous to having no free will to obey or disobey God.

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Sure it is… Look at Pharaoh.. God called on Him through Moses to repent and let His people go, but He could not do it. He was not free to, because His heart was hard!

Look at Joseph’s brothers…

Genesis 37:4 When his brothers saw that their father loved him more than any of them, they hated him and could not speak a kind word to him.
See how they hated Him! The could not speak a kind word to Him! Were they not free to speak a kind word? So it is with man and God… Natural man is at enmity with God!

Romans 8:7because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so,

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NotA - I'll assume that you have a wife and that you don't cheat on her. Why do you choose not to cheat but your neighbor cheats? Seriously.

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I don’t cheat on my wife by the Grace of God!

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2 Peter 3:9 reads:
The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.

If God made the choice of who would obey His commands and who would not then this verse indicates that He would select EVRYONE and all people would come to repentance. It has also been said of me in this discussion that I am limiting God’s mercy and grace with my stance. Hardly. With the view that we are creatures of free will, able to make the choice to serve God or not serve God then the Hope of Salvation is open to all who choose to access what God, through his grace and mercy, has given to us. If HE chooses who will obey and who won’t then his grace and mercy is limited to those whom he has chosen and is NOT readily available to all, thus limiting his grace and mercy.

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So let’s look at the options here…

So you admit that if God really desired to save everyone, that everyone would be saved, but you speak of a greater commitment that God has than saving everyone. You assume that commitment that keeps him from saving everyone is the commitment He has to giving people free will, so that they are in the end accountable for either rejecting or receiving Him. Fair enough?

The problem is that the scriptures simply do not teach that God’s greatest commitment is to mans self determination! They teach that His greater commitment than saving all is the display of the full range of His glory in his sovereign mercy and justice.


Eph 1:5He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will, 6to the praise of the glory of His grace, which He freely bestowed on us in the Beloved.

Eph 1:11also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will, 12to the end that we who were the first to hope in Christ would be to the praise of His glory.

Romans 9:22What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction? 23And He did so to make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory,

Your assumption is based on some kind of philosophical construct of what you think human accountability requires, and not the Word of God. You can say what you like about my position, but it is wholly based in the Scriptures.

[This message has been edited by Notafraid (edited 5/17/2005 12:46p).]

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I don’t cheat on my wife by the Grace of God!

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Is this the only reason you don't cheat?

Notafraid, as usual will berate you for thinking you understand scripture tell you it is only by God's will you are saved or not, then turn around and tell you how you don't understand the scriptures he posts.

It is thru the lenses of God predetermination as "understood" (misunderstood) by Calvinists that NotA sees scripture. It is like: (my extreme example having nothing to do with NotA)

The homosexuals will "understand" God love for ALL his children, and then read into EVERY verse God's love without obedience.

Lenses off and let the Bible define itself!

[This message has been edited by AgGermany (edited 5/17/2005 1:01p).]

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Is this the only reason you don't cheat?

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Yep. I would have left her long ago had not the Lord restrained my sin, and caused me to walk in his statutes.

You will not get humanistic “well I pulled myself up by my spiritual bootstraps” talk from me, because my theology is grounded in the scriptures.

It is not my fleshly determination to Hold onto the Lord that I look to. It is that I am in His grip. That is where true strength comes from. Through and By the Spirit of the Lord is where true power to overcome the flesh is, not just human determination.

If you want power in your life to overcome, then look to the Lord!


[This message has been edited by Notafraid (edited 5/17/2005 12:55p).]

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then turn around and tell you how you don't understand the scriptures he posts.

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Yeah, but if he's right, then it doesn't matter if I understand (or even read) the scriptures or not.

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Yep. I would have left her long ago had not the Lord restrained my sin

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Can non-Christians remain faithful to their wives?

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If you want power in your life to overcome, then look to the Lord!

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Why would you prompt me to look to the Lord? What's done is done.

I am too lazy to read all the posts above but here is an interesting read on this subject. Maybe it will help settle the debate. Then again maybe it will inflame it.

http://users.aber.ac.uk/emk/ap/sermons/james14.htm

[This message has been edited by TAMU@EDS (edited 5/17/2005 1:07p).]

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The Daily Show often uses humor to push certain things as true. I recognized the humor, but the joke had an implication that was a straw man, and it was not really that funny either, but I left that part out…

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Touche. Let he who is purely funny cast the first stone . . . not so fast, notafraid.

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For you to be fatalist about it is certainly not to take the Biblical view. Just because God speaks to us about His sovereignty, is no excuse for you to cease believing in His Word, in the same way that you ceased to believe in His Word when it didn’t fit the ideal of your unbiblical philosophical construct of what it takes for human accountability.

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Oh fatalistic me! Have you noticed the streams of accusations that accompany such statements? You should tone it down. It drives people off.

Not me of course. I know how to take your schtick.

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You have made some assumptions from out of your humanistic views about justice, and accountability, and you ignore scriptures that teach contrary to it, and embrace ones that you think teach otherwise.

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Tell me. If I am honestly seeking truth, must I agree with this assumption of yours or be among the lost? I have read the same bible.

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Go ahead and keep asserting that my position that I back up with scripture [interpreted as notafraid interprets it and no other possiblity existing] is not what it is, but that it’s arbitrary, but be warned, that I will keep exposing what you are doing when you do it

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I love it when you play the Ever-Watchful Clever Warden and Policeman of the Heathen!

I'm trying to keep it light, and from such comes my overstatement. You will not be able to show me through verses that you spin that man does not have the capacity to choose, or that God's supersecret method of respecting persons will just have to be lived with by us the ignorant.

But I see you are quite the detective on the trail of the Dastardly Dr. M., exposing his evil plans.

You'll have to work harder. I've eluded you yet again.

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Oh but there is, when your neighbor saw the same path, or perhaps he even hear the gospel all the more, the knocking was even louder! The pathway was even made a bit wider by the Lord, yet He remained in his spot! He was not as smart as you to see the flames! He did not see the good deal or the peril! Come on! That means there is something better in and of you!

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You are assuming we would all make the same choice. Using my analogy, some choose to serve self, without realizing the building's on fire.

Man's sinful nature interposes itself between us and God. Those that recognize the nature of God and the nature of man will see the fire and search for rescue.

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You see how dishonestly you continue to try and propose things! Even as your dishonest with the “it was only a joke”, discounting the purpose of it

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Okay, Warden.


I'm such a liar!!! Evil Me!!!

MWAAAA HHaaa HHaa!!

Humor is your friend. Try it. It can keep from time-consuming argument-killing back and forths that end up in a lot of typing, a lot of anger, and no revelation or enlightenment.

Surely you don't want to pretend that you have not used similar vehicles for disagreement. I've been around too long to not know that this is a case of your selective application.

But it's okay. I forgive you.


[This message has been edited by Dr. Mephisto (edited 5/17/2005 2:01p).]

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Just because God speaks to us about His sovereignty, is no excuse for you to cease believing in His Word, in the same way that you ceased to believe in His Word when it didn’t fit the ideal of your unbiblical philosophical construct of what it takes for human accountability.

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How could anyone "cease" to believe his Word? He'll either let us believe or He won't. The contradiction continues.


[This message has been edited by ttechguy (edited 5/17/2005 1:29p).]

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Yeah, but if he's right, then it doesn't matter if I understand (or even read) the scriptures or not.

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This is simply untrue… Please do not say that I am saying this. I have clarified this several times. Please make sure that others know that you are saying this for your own purposes, not because that is what I have implied, or because I have not shown you scriptures to the contrary.

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Can non-Christians remain faithful to their wives?

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Now you are just mocking…

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Why would you prompt me to look to the Lord? What's done is done.

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Please don’t post to me anymore if you are going to continue to perpetuate lies. Until you have established this claim as true to the evidence that I have displayed to you, then it’s just a bare assertion. It’s also not my argument, so you are bearing false witness if you are tying to imply that I have said this.

You have no scriptural basis for your positions, and apparently all you can do is mock...



[This message has been edited by Notafraid (edited 5/17/2005 2:22p).]

Warning, I am about to ramble in a stream-of-consciousness way. Hey, you guys, I think I will draw fire from both sides. I was predestined to have a free will that responded to the convicting call of the Holy Spirit and choose to be born again. I am also predestined to be conformed to His image. Also, he that endures to the end will be saved, and I will be one of those people. Not because I am trusting in the power of my will(sounds a bit like a motivational speaker doesn't it?), but because, like the Apostle Paul, I know know in whom I have believed, and I am persuaded that He is able to keep that which I committed unto Him against that day. I trust in God to keep my will submitted to Him. Can I choose to sin and not submit my will? Yes. Do I sometimes? Yes. But, I still put my trust not in myself but in Him.

And ya know what else? I am eternally secure. I am not speaking from a strong doctrinal standpoint, but from a confessional standpoint. Like Paul, I am convinced that He will keep my committment to Him.

So, I am a neoCalvinistic, protestant, quasi-arminian, with ambiguous dispensational leanings. So there!

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If you want power in your life to overcome, then look to the Lord!

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NA, do you see the problem with this statement? Doesn't this statement imply that we are at the very least partially responsible for gaining "power in our life"? Is the following statement true? If you don't seek the Lord, you will not receive power in your life.

I understand I am taking one of your quotes out of possibly hundreds in this thread, but quotes like this is why I believe the "truth" lies somewhere in the middle of this debate.

In Ephesians Paul is writing to Chrisitans and explains that God new even before the world was created that he would save his chosen people. His chosen people are now those who are obedient. It was pre-ordained that we (the obedient) would be saved.

The explanation I gave does not contradict any other teachings in the Bible. Your explanation DOES contradict other teachings in the Bible and there is no way to rectify the differences so, therefore, the differences are ignored or explained away with flawed reasoning and false teaching.

Plus, in Epesians chapter 3 Paul talks about the Gentiles being partakers his promise. Partaking is an action that someone takes. In Chapter 4 he writes:

1As a prisoner for the Lord, then, I urge you to live a life worthy of the calling you have received. 2Be completely humble and gentle; be patient, bearing with one another in love. 3Make every effort to keep the unity of the Spirit through the bond of peace. 4There is one body and one Spirit—just as you were called to one hope when you were called— 5one Lord, one faith, one baptism; 6one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.

There are entirely too many references in the New Testament to examples of people having the ability to choose between doing what is right and doing what is wrong.

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I love it when you play the Ever-Watchful Clever Warden and Policeman of the Heathen!

I'm trying to keep it light, and from such comes my overstatement. You will not be able to show me through verses that you spin that man does not have the capacity to choose, or that God's supersecret method of respecting persons will just have to be lived with by us the ignorant.

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You mistook my point. You were claiming things I had not claim nor had you shown any evidence to it… You had done it more than once, and I called you on your dishonesty there and on the slam (that was untrue) under the pretense of a joke.

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But I see you are quite the detective on the trail of the Dastardly Dr. M., exposing his evil plans.

You'll have to work harder. I've eluded you yet again.

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Yes, well I did question your motives in some of what you did, and I think I clearly called it to your attention, but yes you did dodge it, and try to put it back on me being some kind of unreasonable wacky caricature. That’s fine. Spend half of your post painting me in the light you want to, I am used to it from the atheists. And I don’t need any more of your advice on how to be a good Christian poster like you.

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You are assuming we would all make the same choice. Using my analogy, some choose to serve self, without realizing the building's on fire.

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So peoples eternal destiny is because they don’t realize things as Good as someone like you… Well there you have it, the difference maker is that you are better at paying attention, because you were not so “self serving” as them… There is your boasting material…

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Man's sinful nature interposes itself between us and God. Those that recognize the nature of God and the nature of man will see the fire and search for rescue.

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There are some more separators… You are a better recognizer of the truth… You see, and know a deal better… You are a better chooser… Well, that is something you could boast about… not that God chose you, but that you Chose Him!
So much for what the scriptures say!
!cor 1:26For consider your calling, brethren, that there were not many wise according to the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble; 27but God has chosen the foolish things of the world to shame the wise, and God has chosen the weak things of the world to shame the things which are strong, 28and the base things of the world and the despised God has chosen, the things that are not, so that He may nullify the things that are, 29so that no man may boast before God. 30But by His doing you are in Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God, and righteousness and sanctification, and redemption, 31so that, just as it is written, "LET HIM WHO BOASTS, BOAST IN THE LORD."

Where are the verses that describe the kind of ultimate contingency of self determination, and all of the nice inherent abilities you have over others? There are none!

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Okay, Warden.


I'm such a liar!!! Evil Me!!!

MWAAAA HHaaa HHaa!!

Humor is your friend. Try it. It can keep from time-consuming argument-killing back and forths that end up in a lot of typing, a lot of anger, and no revelation or enlightenment.

Surely you don't want to pretend that you have not used similar vehicles for disagreement. I've been around too long to not know that this is a case of your selective application.

But it's okay. I forgive you.

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One can smile, make light of things, make it a joke, and say and do some of the wickedest things!
You did have a motive, and used humor as a cover for it, and then continued to deny it, and to go on to further heights of the same kind of stuff with humor as a cover. At issue is that you don’t need to be concerned with looking a certain way to man, but that the Lord calls you to be holy. You should try to be respectful, especially when the person is offended by it. Yes I have done and said all kinds of things that were not right, but the thing that we have to do as Christians is repent of it!

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Now you are just mocking

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I'll take that as a "yes, non-Christians can remain faithful to their spouses". So that means they can choose to be obedient in this respect...even without God's help.

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Please don’t post to me anymore if you are going to continue to perpetuate lies. Until you have established this claim as true to the evidence that I have displayed to you, then it’s just a bare assertion. It’s also not my argument, so you are bearing false witness if you are tying to imply that I have said this.

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Again, I realize you don't say it, but that is what you teach. Free will involves a choice. When you talk about free will, you have to use odd qualifiers like "they were free to choose what they desired". You don't have to be forced to love God. And, since you admit that no one can choose God, that is exactly the same thing.

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Warning, I am about to ramble in a stream-of-consciousness way. Hey, you guys, I think I will draw fire from both sides. I was predestined to have a free will that responded to the convicting call of the Holy Spirit and choose to be born again. I am also predestined to be conformed to His image. Also, he that endures to the end will be saved, and I will be one of those people. Not because I am trusting in the power of my will(sounds a bit like a motivational speaker doesn't it?), but because, like the Apostle Paul, I know know in whom I have believed, and I am persuaded that He is able to keep that which I committed unto Him against that day. I trust in God to keep my will submitted to Him. Can I choose to sin and not submit my will? Yes. Do I sometimes? Yes. But, I still put my trust not in myself but in Him.

And ya know what else? I am eternally secure. I am not speaking from a strong doctrinal standpoint, but from a confessional standpoint. Like Paul, I am convinced that He will keep my committment to Him.

So, I am a neoCalvinistic, protestant, quasi-arminian, with ambiguous dispensational leanings. So there!

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I’m sorry to break this bad news to you, but you are a total Calvinist. That you are predestined to choose him freely is all that I have ever said on this thread.

He actually promises to keep you even when you don’t have faith!

2 Timothy 2:13 If we are faithless, He remains faithful, for He cannot deny Himself.

Because you are sealed in Him!

Ephesians 1:13 In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation--having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise,

Tonka

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NA, do you see the problem with this statement? Doesn't this statement imply that we are at the very least partially responsible for gaining "power in our life"? Is the following statement true? If you don't seek the Lord, you will not receive power in your life.

I understand I am taking one of your quotes out of possibly hundreds in this thread, but quotes like this is why I believe the "truth" lies somewhere in the middle of this debate.

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Here are a few verses that I think draw that tension perfectly…

2 Timothy 2:19 Nevertheless, the firm foundation of God stands, having this seal, " The Lord knows those who are His," and, " Everyone who names the name of the Lord is to abstain from wickedness."

It does not teach that we are ultimately saved by our actions, but it would be my position that our actions are the fruit of our salvation. A demonstration of the work that he is doing in us. Yes, we participate in our sanctification, but the Lord is the one who preserves us, and will see us through to the end.

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Again, I realize you don't say it, but that is what you teach. Free will involves a choice. When you talk about free will, you have to use odd qualifiers like "they were free to choose what they desired". You don't have to be forced to love God. And, since you admit that no one can choose God, that is exactly the same thing.

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If that is the position that you have determined to take, then there is no sense in speaking to me anymore about this stuff…

From here on out, it would only be head butting...
Though you never asked me to try and help you reconcile it, so I hope you will see your intent all along has been to continually assert it...

[This message has been edited by Notafraid (edited 5/17/2005 2:56p).]

You took 2 Timothy 2:13 completely out of context AND made an application that does not exist.

He is saying that even if we do not have faith that promise he gave still exists and if we become faithful again can still access that promise.

Keep reading in that same chapter in verse 15:

15 Be diligent to present yourself approved to God, a worker who does not need to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.


Again, references to working and actions on our part so that we may be justified before God. God does the justifying when we are obedient.