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Have you ever sought to be controlled by the Spirit?

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Why would I seek the Spirit? Can't I just wait to find out if I'm one of the elect?

And why is important for you to change my mind?

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Why would I seek the Spirit? Can't I just wait to find out if I'm one of the elect?

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What do you want to do? Do you want to serve God? Are you serving Him because of what you might get out of the deal?

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And why is important for you to change my mind?

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If I explained it to you, you wouldn’t understand, because you don’t want to understand. You want to avoid the failings of your own view, and lash out at the things you don’t like.


By the way, you showed the utter failure of your position by not answering agian... You answer my questions, and I may answer yours... You have lot's of catching up to do in that department...






[This message has been edited by Notafraid (edited 5/18/2005 11:35p).]

In your Romans passage, Paul is discussing the selection of Jacob instead of Esau as the son of Isaac through whom the Abrahamic covenant would continue. The decision that "the elder shall serve the younger" was made before the sons were born to Isaac and Rebekah. Salvation is not being discussed in this text.

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If I explained it to you, you wouldn’t understand, because you don’t want to understand. You want to avoid the failings of your own view, and lash out at the things you don’t like.

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But I either have "ears to hear" or I don't and there's not a thing I can do about it. And there's certainly nothing YOU could do about it. So I honestly don't know why do you waste your breath (typing fingers?). If I'm in, I'm in...regardless of my actions or any teaching from you. If I'm out, I'm out.

Do you "get something out of the deal", knowing that your effort is futile?

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In your Romans passage, Paul is discussing the selection of Jacob instead of Esau as the son of Isaac through whom the Abrahamic covenant would continue. The decision that "the elder shall serve the younger" was made before the sons were born to Isaac and Rebekah. Salvation is not being discussed in this text.

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Well, if that is true that is the damnation of bunches of people then, not just 1. Not only does that view argue for election then, but of whole generations of children, and it also argues for federal headship. Tell me, if that is talking about nations, then why bring Pharaoh into it? Is he representing the nation of Egypt? How does the hardening and mercy tie into that, and the vessels of wrath?



[This message has been edited by Notafraid (edited 5/18/2005 11:45p).]

FYI Esau and his household's fate:

Hebrews 12:16that there be no immoral or godless person like Esau, who sold his own birthright for a single meal. 17For you know that even afterwards, when he desired to inherit the blessing, he was rejected, for he found no place for repentance, though he sought for it with tears.

Obadiah 1:18 "Then the house of Jacob will be a fire And the house of Joseph a flame; But the house of Esau will be as stubble And they will set them on fire and consume them, So that there will be no survivor of the house of Esau,"For the LORD has spoken.

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for he found no place for repentance

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No freewill alert, no freewill alert!

I still don't know how you read unconditional particular election to Heaven into that. Is it or is it not talking about who is chosen to continue the covenant?

No freewill? Why? Because he didn't repent?

And I don't argue against election...just the unconditional particular kind.



[This message has been edited by ttechguy (edited 5/18/2005 11:55p).]

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I still don't know how you read unconditional particular election to Heaven into that.

No freewill? Why? Because he didn't repent?

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Still no answers to my questions?...

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And I don't argue against election...just the unconditional particular kind.

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Hey… You see… you are budging a little bit… Gotta have those "conditions" in there huh?

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Tell me, if that is talking about nations, then why bring Pharaoh into it? Is he representing the nation of Egypt? How does the hardening and mercy tie into that, and the vessels of wrath?

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Here's my answer: I don't know how that ties into the fact that that passage is discussing the selection of Isaac's son Jacob over Esau as the one who carries Abraham's covenent (is it not?)....not the selection of Jacob over Esau for salvation. You're misunderstanding a passage that refers to a specific person being chosen to a specific work for God...but not a specific individual for salvation.

And I have never argued against election. The scripture is clear that there is an elect..."those in Christ".

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Here's my answer: I don't know how that ties into the fact that that passage is discussing the selection of Isaac's son Jacob over Esau as the one who carries Abraham's covenent (is it not?)....not the selection of Jacob over Esau for salvation. You're misunderstanding a passage that refers to a specific person being chosen to a specific work for God...but not a specific individual for salvation.

And I have never argued against election. The scripture is clear that there is an elect..."those in Christ".

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But you admit that it is before they ever did anything good or bad that he elected Jacob, right?
Tell me… Did he have mercy on one and harden the other? Again, your not taking the context of the rest of the text… Leave your commentary behind on it, because they do the same thing… You don’t know how those things effect the other text, because you refuse to let the rest of the context dictate to you what he is really talking about there, because you don’t want it to be true…

Let me explain the hardening a bit…What that means, and it is used in the context of Pharaoh, who the scriptures alternate back and forth saying that he hardened his heart, and then God hardened his heart…

The way Luther described it (see Luther - Bondage of the Will) was that natural man is all about his own way, his own truth, his own glory, etc, and when the one who is greater comes near (God) His presence deserves and demands all of these things, and this galls natural man. God does not have to live a finger to harden a heart of natural man, but just by being who He is, the heart is hardened in those called vessels of wrath.



[This message has been edited by Notafraid (edited 5/19/2005 12:29a).]

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But you admit that it is before they ever did anything good or bad that he elected Jacob, right?

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Sure, but this particular passage you have chosen still has nothing to do with salvation.

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Did he have mercy on one and harden the other?

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Sure, but this particular passage you've chosen still has nothing to do with salvation

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Again, your not taking the context of the rest of the text… Leave your commentary behind on it, because they do the same thing… You don’t know how those things effect the other text, because you refuse to let the rest of the context dictate to you what he is really talking about there, because you don’t want it to be true…

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Right back at you. You've shown me nothing about election for salvation in that text, but you want it to be true.

Against your wishes, I'm gonna go ahead and comment now...
This is what I'm talking about in posting scriptures (not that there's anything wrong with that). I've been through it all before, seen all the passages you folks use to push your point and you've seen mine. We both have responses and refer to passages that make complete and perfect sense to us and not the other. But, while it didn't happen this time, it's fun to see if anybody tries a different angle (or if I can find one) every once in
while.

But here's why I can have my cake and eat it too....If I'm right (and I am ), then I'm doing my best to be a faithful servant and will accept God's grace. If you're right, then it has absolutely no effect on how I live my life. God picked me or he didn't.

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Sure, but this particular passage you have chosen still has nothing to do with salvation.

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So, before they are born, and had done anything good or bad, according to God’s own purposes in election, he chooses one to be the heir of the covenant (salvation), and the other to be outside of the covenant, where he perishes in that state… So How is that not about salvation?

Also, why did he have to bring up the whole part about before they were born, and before they had done any good or bad? Why did the verses mention it was not because of works, but because of Him who calls? In that context it is that he calls into covenant relationship right?
Do you think that there is salvation outside of covenant relationship with God?

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Right back at you. You've shown me nothing about election for salvation in that text, but you want it to be true.

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I never wanted it to be true.. I used to ignore these passages, and fret over them for years… I used to hold your position, and I got upset about it, and argued much of the same things you do…
The Lord did not stop though, and now I believe His Word.

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Against your wishes, I'm gonna go ahead and comment now...
This is what I'm talking about in posting scriptures (not that there's anything wrong with that). I've been through it all before, seen all the passages you folks use to push your point and you've seen mine. We both have responses and refer to passages that make complete and perfect sense to us and not the other. But, while it didn't happen this time, it's fun to see if anybody tries a different angle (or if I can find one) every once in
while.

But here's why I can have my cake and eat it too....If I'm right (and I am ), then I'm doing my best to be a faithful servant and will accept God's grace. If you're right, then it has absolutely no effect on how I live my life. God picked me or he didn't.

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No, if your right, then you have something to boast about, and other places in the Word of God are wrong… Your position leaves one with a fairly anemic view of God’s sovereignty. It makes man the sovereign in His salvation… It creates a certain kind of mindset.. It does nto exalt God, but man instead… If also has a poor view of why people don’t believe, and how to think about that, and how to approach them…

Most of all though, it's just not believing what the Word of God says, and it makes it hard to press on to the deper things of God...

I myself am simply a very average knowledge person in my Church, but I could go to the Arminian Churches, and be Mr. Deep bible man… He just doesn't seem to bless the exaltation of the will of man... It makes it hard to feast on meat, when you don’t have a Biblical worldview of reality, but have instead substituted philosophical constructs in it’s place…

I'm sleepy now... talk to you tomorrow! May the Lord bless you and keep you...



[This message has been edited by Notafraid (edited 5/19/2005 12:55a).]

Go to sleep.

NotAfraid, if you are thinking of taking a break because you feel like that is the leading of the Spirit, then take one(like I am telling you something you don't know).

However, if you are simply sick and tired of posting, defending, and sometimes being misunderstood, and if you are like me-- sometimes putting your foot in your mouth-- then I would suggest that maybe you step back a bit, but still hang around. At the risk of "mush," I would miss you. I don't expect perfection in an argument from others or myself. I realize that all who post are sinners, and when they behave as such, I am not overtaken with astonishment.

As to your request for prayer, done. If God reveals anything that needs changing, let Him do the changing. I have tried the self-help, by your bootstraps route, and God does a much better job than my efforts. Sorry, that was unclear. What I mean is, when I focus on change, I get frustrated and feel condemnation. When I focus on Him, He changes me. My problem is that my focus is not as consistent as it should be.

As my knowledge and revelation of Him increases, so does my knowledge and revelation of my own sin. As I grow, I don't feel more holy; I feel more of a sinner. Thank God for grace. Praise His wonderful name for saving His own!

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Most of all though, it's just not believing what the Word of God says, and it makes it hard to press on to the deper things of God...

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What do you reckon God should do about that? Think He'll fix me? Nothing to do but wait and see.

And I have never said I'm "sovereign" in my own salvation...no matter how many times you post it, I can't save myself.

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Your position leaves one with a fairly anemic view of God’s sovereignty

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And yours with an anemic view of God's love. He doesn't have to force you to love Him.







[This message has been edited by ttechguy (edited 5/19/2005 7:32a).]

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And I have never said I'm "sovereign" in my own salvation...no matter how many times you post it, I can't save myself.

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If you believe that you can say yes to God BEFORE He changes your heart then you believe that YOU can save yourself and no matter how many times you post that "you can't save yourself" it does not change the fact that you believe that you can. Yep, God Almighty came to this earth as our Savior but before you would accept Him as such, He had to change your heart. Scripture teaches that we are dead spiritually and without God Almighty breathing life into our dead spiritual heart, we would never love Him! That's not my opinion, that is stated in the Word of God.

Mr. Curtis summarizes it here:

The will is the faculty of choice, the immediate cause of all action. You think about something and then you do it. In every act of the will there is a preference, the desiring of one thing rather than another. To will is to choose, and to choose is to decide between two or more alternatives. But there is something which influences the choice. The will is not causative because something causes it to choose, therefore, that something must be the causative agent.

What is it that determines the will? If the will is not causative, then what is it that causes you to make a choice? Let's say that your boss comes to you and says, "You're going to California." You don't have a choice, he's ordering you to go. But he says, "Would you like to drive or fly?" He is giving you a choice. What determines which option you choose? What determines your choice is the strongest motive power which is brought to bear upon it. With one, it may be the logic of reason-- if I drive, it will take me five days, and if I fly, it will only take me about five hours. I choose to fly. With another, the impulse of emotion - there are a lot of plane crashes and I'm not ready to die, so I'll drive. What you think, causes you to will. Which ever of these presents the strongest motive power and exerts the greatest influence upon us, is that which impels the will to act.

In other words, the action of the will is determined by the mind or heart. The will is not free but is in bondage to the heart. The Word of God teaches that it is the heart which is the dominating center of our being:

Proverbs 4:23 (NKJV) Keep your heart with all diligence, For out of it spring the issues of life.

Our choices are determined by our desires. When we have conflicting desires, which ever desire is greater at the time of decision is the desire I will choose.

Example: What causes a teenager to take drugs? Your mind, your thinking, will determine your choice. If you desire to honor and obey God and your parents, and if you believe that drugs are wrong, you will say, "No" to drugs. If you're really undecided if drugs are wrong, and you want to please your friends, you'll say, "Yes." This is why we are to train up our children and this is why we are to guard our thinking - the condition of our hearts will determine our choices. J. Edwards defined the will as, "The mind choosing."

Let's carry this idea of the will to the non-regenerate. Does the lost person have a free will to choose God or reject Him? By and far the majority of the church today believes that the lost person has a free will. The church, during the days of the reformation, held that man had no free will. In the eighteenth century, Campbell, a Scottish preacher, was excommunicated from the church for teaching that man had a free will. The church today is man-centered, so they want man to be able to determine his own destiny. Does the lost man have a free will? No! He can not choose God because he loves sin and hates God, he has no desire for Him. He cannot choose what he does not desire. He does not desire God because his heart is wicked.

Jeremiah 17:9 (NKJV) "The heart is deceitful above all things, And desperately wicked; Who can know it?

Until God changes his heart through a supernatural sovereign act, he cannot choose God.

Ezekiel 36:26 (NKJV) "I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; I will take the heart of stone out of your flesh and give you a heart of flesh.

Our will is not free but is in bondage to our heart which is controlled by God.

Proverbs 21:1 (NKJV) The king's heart is in the hand of the LORD, Like the rivers of water; He turns it wherever He wishes.
Revelation 17:16-17 (NKJV) "And the ten horns which you saw on the beast, these will hate the harlot, make her desolate and naked, eat her flesh and burn her with fire. 17 "For God has put it into their hearts to fulfill His purpose, to be of one mind, and to give their kingdom to the beast, until the words of God are fulfilled.

God put it in their heart to give their kingdom to the beast. God inclines men to fulfill that which He has ordained, and performs that which He has foreordained.

Luther was committed to total depravity, that man could not choose God, as was Calvin. As we go backward in time, we see that Augustine taught the same thing in the fifth century. Augustine said, "Man's will is entirely corrupted by the fall so that he must be considered totally depraved and unable to exercise his will in regard to the matter of salvation." The reformers taught it in the 16th century, Augustine taught it in the 5th century, and the apostles taught it in the 1st century.

Romans 3:10-12 (NKJV) As it is written: "There is none righteous, no, not one; 11 There is none who understands; There is none who seeks after God. 12 They have all turned aside; They have together become unprofitable; There is none who does good, no, not one."

"There is none who does good." People will admit they're sinners, but not many will admit sin is this serious. Is there really none who do good? We see unbelievers doing good every day; obeying laws, providing for their families, giving to the needy. Is Paul using hyperbole here? Is he exaggerating to make his point? No! This is God's judgment on fallen man. What is the standard for good, the standard by which we shall all be judged? God's law. In biblical categories, a good deed is measured in two parts; outward conformity and motivation. We look at outward appearance, but God reads the heart. For a work to be considered good, it must not only conform outwardly to the law of God, but it must be motivated inwardly by a sincere love for God. From this perspective, it is easy to see that no one does good. Our best works are tainted by our less than pure motives. God doesn't grade on a curve. He demands perfection. We do not do what God commands ever!

Romans 3:11 (NKJV) There is none who understands; There is none who seeks after God.

Do you believe that? Have you ever heard someone say, "they're not a Christian but they are searching." I've got a secret to tell you - God is not hiding. In the garden of Eden, who hid? God? No! Adam and Eve hid from God, he was looking for them.

Luke 19:10 (NKJV) "for the Son of Man has come to seek and to save that which was lost."
Jesus is the one seeking and saving. People don't seek God. They might seek after the benefits that God can give them, but they don't seek God, Himself.

Romans 3:18 (NKJV) "There is no fear of God before their eyes."

Men have no fear of the Holiness and justice of God.

Ephesians 2:1-6 (NKJV) And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins, 2 in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience, 3 among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others. 4 But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6 and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,

Verse 5 teaches that we were dead. Dead men can't make themselves come alive. It is God who quickens us from spiritual death. Non-reformed analogies: Mortally ill man must take the medicine of the gospel to live. They say man must make the choice, he must take the medicine. The problem with that analogy is that the Bible doesn't speak of mortally ill man. It speaks of dead man. I guess you understand the difference between being mortally ill and dead.

Genesis 2:17 (NKJV) "but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely (get very sick, mortally ill?) die."
Let me ask you a question? Did Adam die when he ate the fruit? Did God tell the truth? Adam lived physically another 930 years. But he died spiritually the day that he ate of the forbidden fruit. Man's problem is a spiritual problem, he is spiritually dead, separated from God.

Romans 6:23 (NKJV) For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Is this referring to physical or spiritual death? Notice the contrast - sin equals death; gift of God equals eternal life. The wages of sin is spiritual death. We already saw that Ephesians 2:5 says we were dead in our sins. Sinners are not mortally ill, they are spiritually dead. There is not one ounce of spiritual life in them.

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What do you reckon God should do about that? Think He'll fix me? Nothing to do but wait and see.

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How can He fix you, Your god doesn’t save anybody. He just makes a potential salvation. It’s up to you, to out of the greatness, and goodness of your own heart to not only make the right decision for him, but also it’s up to you to hold on to him properly until the end… You are ultimately the one who determines if you go to heaven or not. I still have to wonder, who is saving you?

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And I have never said I'm "sovereign" in my own salvation...no matter how many times you post it, I can't save myself.

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Sorry, but in your model God does nothing but pave the road to salvation. To provide the potential for salvation. In the end it’s you doing all the things to claim that salvation, and hold on to that salvation. When it all boils down to the ultimate determining factor, it is you, all by yourself who determine your eternal destiny by making the right choices. This means that you are the ultimate sovereign over it.

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And yours with an anemic view of God's love. He doesn't have to force you to love Him.

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No, but He loves me so much that He didn’t just leave it up to me. He made me a new creation in Christ, with a new heart that freely loves Him. He also promises to preserve me by His power.

1Pet 1:5who are protected by the power of God through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

Because of His great love, when I was dead in sin, He made me alive together with Christ. That is sovereign grace.
Eph 2:4But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),
Not that I am so good that I choose to Love him out of the great love from me, but that His love has been poured into my heart…
Romans 5:5and hope does not disappoint, because the love of God has been poured out within our hearts through the Holy Spirit who was given to us.

Now, are you gonna answer my previous questions?

The Lone Stranger,

I feel like it is coming between me and things I should be doing. That I am putting it there in place of my responsibilities. That I have been undisciplined in the amount of time I have spent, and that it’s more me that keeps going at it foolishly.

NotAfraid, I understand. But, I know that oftentimes in my attempt to correct a problem, I have a tendency to overcorrect, when, if I listen to......there is a balance that is better. In these times I find my wife a useful source. She wants the best for me, and is usually an objective, yet loving external counsel.

[This message has been edited by The Lone Stranger (edited 5/19/2005 11:12a).]

A&O, good post. There is a lot to chew on there.

A&O, very interesting post. There is much to "chew" on.

The Lone Stranger,

I hear that... It's like God puts these women in our lives on purpose!

Way to go!, A and O!
Way to go!, A and O!

I am a member of the A&O fan club!

Amen, NotAfraid, I could start a thread about how my wife is a manifestation of the grace and love of God.

Acts 14:15 -- you should turn from these vain things to a living God

Acts 26:20 -- they should repent and turn to God

Would God give all man a command they can't obey?

It's payback time, isn't it Notafraid? Go fishing this weekend (with your family), you will be as good as new Monday! BTW, God doesn't take sabbaticals, so why should his servants?

Faith and repentance are fruits of regeneration! But as a practical matter, repentance is inseparable from faith. Turning towards Christ in faith is impossible without turning away from sin in repentance. The idea that there can be saving faith without repentance, and that one can be justified by embracing Christ as Savior while refusing Him as Lord is a mistake. True faith acknowledges Christ as what He is, our God-appointed king as well as our God-given priest, and faith that trusts in Him as Savior will submit to Him as Lord also. To refuse this is to seek justification with an impenitent faith, which is really no faith. Feelings of remorse, self-reproach, and sorrow for sin generated by fear of punishment, without any wish or resolve to forsake sinning can not be confused with repentance. David expresses true repentance in Ps. 51, having in his heart the serious purpose of sinning no more, and of living a righteous life.

AO - despite the cheerleading going on about your post it is absolutely filled with the false teachings of man. For starters the scripture that was cited in Ezekiel is speaking to the children of Israel about their unfaithfulness. THEY DID NOT FOLLOW GOD'S WILL AND GOD PUNISHED THEM! Verses 18-19 tells us that God punished them for their actions and disobedience. Verse 23 tells of when they would be returned to God's favor. That occurred when God was once again hallowed in their hearts (a decision and choice they would have to make). And I could go on and on about your last lengthy post becuase it is FULL of false teachings and verses taken out of context.

You guys are missing the entire point. God's mercy is given to us when we submit to his will. Our salvation is TOTALLY dependant on God's grace and mercy. Because of our dependance on that grace and mercy we should recognize that the only way he will be merciful on us is if we submit to his will in ALL THINGS and follow the instructions he has given us.

If you want to rely on the Old Testament then turn to the book of Job. The entire story is about God stepping back and letting Satan affect Job and Job WILLFULLY remaining obedient to God. Satan tells God that if he quits protecting Job that Job will curse Him. God even tells Satan that Job is in Satan's hands (chapter 2:5) with the exception of taking Job's life. Job remained faithful. Did Job have the ability to turn from God because of his afflictions? ABSOLUTELY! If he did not have this option then the protection and reasoning behind Satan's statements about God protecting Job wouldhave been true and the story pointless.

BUT, because of Job's love for God he remained faithful.

You guys have harped about "Oh, you guys think you're smarter than others around you who have heard God's word and rejected it. How arrogant of you!"

It is not that we think we are smarter than anyone else. Some of the greatest "thinkers" throughout history have rejected God but by man's standards they were "great intellectuals".

What we think is this (or I guess I should what Ithink):

There are those who are taught God's word and reject it. In 2 Peter chapter 2 talks about false teachers. Verse 1 says this:

"But there were also false prophets among the people, even as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Lord who bought them, amd bring on themselves swift destruction."

Now, if your theory were correct this verse says that the Lord had bought those that would be turning against Him. THIS COULD NOT HAVE HAPPENED ACCORDING TO YOUR DOCTRINE!

Later in the same chapter in verses 18-22 Peter writes:

18 For they mouth empty, boastful words and, by appealing to the lustful desires of sinful human nature, they entice people who are just escaping from those who live in error. 19 They promise them freedom, while they themselves are slaves of depravity—for a man is a slave to whatever has mastered him. 20 If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning. 21 It would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than to have known it and then to turn their backs on the sacred command that was passed on to them. 22 Of them the proverbs are true: "A dog returns to its vomit,"and, "A sow that is washed goes back to her wallowing in the mud."

There is no other explanation to this scripture other than there were those who were obedient then because of their own worldly lusts and desires turned from God. Peter is warning about this becuase IT CAN HAPPEN TO OTHERS!

Your explanations of many of the scriptures you have cited in this thread contradict what other passages teach. In Truth their are no contradictions. I write the Truth not because I think I am smarter than others or because I am better than others. I speak the Truth because that is what God wants me to do and bring others to Him. Again, people find that broad path or that narrow path, THE PATH DOES NOT FIND THEM!!!

It would be som much easier for God to be the one who decides for us if we are saved or not. Then we could just go about our daily business and not have to worry about making wrong choices. THEN we WOULD be better than others because GOD picked US and that would make him a respector of persons. If not, why me and not you? Why this person and not that person? And, using your reasoning and logic, why you and NOT your friends and family who are not saved? Are YOU that special?

It is difficult, at times, to be odenient and THAT is called temptation. When we are able to overcome temptation we grow stronger. When we fall to temptation and we repent of that transgression He is faithful and just to forgive us!

It is the fallacies of man that will cause his soul to be lost for all eternity NOT the Will of God. I quote 2 Peter 3:9 again:

9The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.

If He worked in the manner that YOU say he works then EVERYONE would be saved because that is what HE WANTS! But, you and I both know that there will be more lost than saved and many will be lost while doing what they THINK is right.

Matthew 7:21
"Not everyone who says to Me, "Lord, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven.

Don't stop reading there:

22Many will say to Me in that day, "Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?' 23And then I will declare to them, "I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!'

24"Therefore whoever hears these sayings of Mine, and does them, I will liken him to a wise man who built his house on the rock: 25and the rain descended, the floods came, and the winds blew and beat on that house; and it did not fall, for it was founded on the rock.

26"But everyone who hears these sayings of Mine, and does not do them, will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand: 27and the rain descended, the floods came, and the winds blew and beat on that house; and it fell. And great was its fall."

This tells us that those who do His commands are like the one who builds his house upon the Rock. It does NOT tell us that those who do commands are like the one who God built the house for. Same applies for those in disobedience.

Your doctrine contradicts the New Testament teachings on salvation.

Sure, God knows all! He knows if we will be odedient. He knows if someone, somewhere, will say something to someone that will show them in their heart that they must be obedient to Him. And he knows if we will reject His teachings or if we will embrace them in obedience. He DID NOT MAKE THAT CHOICE FOR US!

You guys thought I left and wasn't paying attention, huh?

Sorry, CTHF, you're grasping at straws.

The verse in Ezekiel was posted in reference to the heart/will connection. You missed the context again!

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God's mercy is given to us when we submit to his will.

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You can't submit to His Will unless He changes your heart. You missed the context again!

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It would be som much easier for God to be the one who decides for us if we are saved or not. Then we could just go about our daily business and not have to worry about making wrong choices. THEN we WOULD be better than others because GOD picked US and that would make him a respector of persons. If not, why me and not you? Why this person and not that person? And, using your reasoning and logic, why you and NOT your friends and family who are not saved? Are YOU that special?

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Your point of view here is actually the very OPPOSITE of what is being described in the article above. The fact you can read that piece and come up with this conclusion simply shows that you do have the ears to hear. You, like many others, have a problem with a sovereign God doing exactly what He said He would do:

ROMANS 8:28 And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose.
29 For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren;
30 and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.
31 What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who is against us?
32 He who did not spare His own Son, but delivered Him over for us all, how will He not also with Him freely give us all things?
33 Who will bring a charge against God's elect? God is the one who justifies;
34 who is the one who condemns? Christ Jesus is He who died, yes, rather who was raised, who is at the right hand of God, who also intercedes for us.
35 Who will separate us from the love of Christ? Will tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?
36 Just as it is written, "FOR YOUR SAKE WE ARE BEING PUT TO DEATH ALL DAY LONG; WE WERE CONSIDERED AS SHEEP TO BE SLAUGHTERED."
37 But in all these things we overwhelmingly conquer through Him who loved us.
38 For I am convinced that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers,
39 nor height, nor depth, nor any other created thing, will be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

[This message has been edited by Alpha and Omega (edited 5/19/2005 5:08p).]

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It would be som much easier for God to be the one who decides for us if we are saved or not.
Then we could just go about our daily business and not have to worry about making wrong choices. THEN we WOULD be better than others because GOD picked US and that would make him a respector of persons. If not, why me and not you? Why this person and not that person? And, using your reasoning and logic, why you and NOT your friends and family who are not saved? Are YOU that special?

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So you are saying that this is what Augustine taught, this is what Aquinas taught, this is what the reformers, Luther and Calvin taught, this is what Jonathan Edwards, and Whitfield, and Spurgeon taught? History it’s self flies in the face of your attempt to say that the biblical doctrines of God’s sovereign grace means that these things you say are necessarily derived from it. Learn Christian history, and you will do yourself a great service in understanding biblical doctrines.



[This message has been edited by Notafraid (edited 5/19/2005 5:27p).]

CTHF, I almost forgot.

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Matthew 7:21
"Not everyone who says to Me, "Lord, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven.

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Do you do the will of the Father in heaven? Now I'm not asking if you try to do His will or you do His will to the best of your ability, I'm asking if you do the will of the Father in heaven?