KingofHazor said:

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Quote:

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If you're a protestant and you're making the argument that it's OK because the Catholic Church does it then I find that equally fascinating.

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I am by no means arguing that it's OK.

I am arguing that your attribution of Talarico to Protestantism is ****oo.

Stalin attended a Russian Orthodox seminary for ~5 years in training to be a priest.

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Protestantism directly allowed and encouraged Talarico to personally interpret the scripture in the way that his heart felt compelled.

Talarico is a feature of Protestantism. It is not a bug that can be corrected.

Unlike Stalin Talarico was not expelled and found plenty of supporting figures for his interpreted beliefs.

Again, I'm not reveling in that fact, and I'm not looking to rub that in, but don't sit there with a cognitive dissonance to claim that Talerico is not just as validly protestant as you are, and that he will potentially become an incredibly recognizable and influential face for the worst type of Protestantism. In fact, he and his believers will see it as a mandate.

Vox Clamantis said:

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Yes the church should do more to crack down on heretics using the Church's mantle as institutional cover for their wicked anti-Christ programs, BUT as a Church we actually have the ability to throw a flag and call foul on the behavior.

With Protestantism you have dueling witnesses of the "movement of the Holy Spirit".

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I fully agree and understand what you're saying. I don't think the mechanisms, or the willingness to use them at least, are strong enough within the Catholic Church.

I understand the issues of the Catholic Church and my open criticism was more in the vein of acknowledging a criticism than levying one.

You perfectly understand the point that I was making with your final statement.

UTExan said:

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Your words-
"Also, there's no way I'm watching your goofy propaganda dispensationalism video. We have The Church and a valid Tradition that we rely on, so I'm not gonna give the wacky content creator any clicks."

That's not a point of debate-that's childhood playground lingo. Just be glad your ancestors were able to thrive in a Protestant country so you could freely choose Orthodoxy instead of having it imposed on you by government fiat.

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*Michael Servetus and the Salem 'witches' have entered the chat*

UTExan said:

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Your words-
"Also, there's no way I'm watching your goofy propaganda dispensationalism video. We have The Church and a valid Tradition that we rely on, so I'm not gonna give the wacky content creator any clicks."

That's not a point of debate-that's childhood playground lingo. Just be glad your ancestors were able to thrive in a Protestant country so you could freely choose Orthodoxy instead of having it imposed on you by government fiat.

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Dispensationalist Christianity deserves 100% of the mockery that it receives.

I've gone into this on other threads so I'm not gonna sit here and just rehash it

The slimmest percentage of Christians accept this theology. Somewhere in the 3 to 7% range.

It is absolute lunacy

There is no nice way to put it. It is borderline anti-Christian at best.

If you believe it, that's fine, but don't sit here and try to pretend like it is remotely mainstream or that the rest of the Christian world doesn't consider you to be an absolute lunatic.

In regards to your Protestant Haven myth:

Early Protestant regimes were deeply theocratic and intolerant. The Puritans in Massachusetts hanged Quakers, banned Catholic priests under pain of death, and jailed and executed Baptists.

John Calvin burned Michael Servetus at the stake in Geneva.

Religious freedom wasn't an act of Protestant benevolence. It was a necessity born out of Enlightened statecraft to keep competing, squabbling Protestant sects from persecuting each other.

Even in regards to commercialism and capitalism commercial hubs, contract law, banking, and market economics were developed centuries before the Reformation in Catholic Italian city-states (Venice, Florence, Genoa) and medieval Flanders, not by American Protestants.

I'm genuinely starting to question whether this is trolling or genuine ignorance.

If this was purely trolling, you are honestly terrible at it.

I genuinely want to have meaningful conversation with people, but there is nothing meaningful or genuine in your posts. You are reaping a lot of the attitude that you put into the world.

I am equally at fault for participating in it as I believe subconsciously, you are desperately seeking answers to questions that your current version of the Christian faith does not satisfy.

Vox Clamantis said:

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UTExan said:

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Your words-
"Also, there's no way I'm watching your goofy propaganda dispensationalism video. We have The Church and a valid Tradition that we rely on, so I'm not gonna give the wacky content creator any clicks."

That's not a point of debate-that's childhood playground lingo. Just be glad your ancestors were able to thrive in a Protestant country so you could freely choose Orthodoxy instead of having it imposed on you by government fiat.

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*Michael Servetus and the Salem 'witches' have entered the chat*

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Dang, beat me to it. Man this UTex guy just tees it up for you.

Just lobbing beach balls over the plate.

CrackerJackAg said:

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UTExan said:

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Your words-
"Also, there's no way I'm watching your goofy propaganda dispensationalism video. We have The Church and a valid Tradition that we rely on, so I'm not gonna give the wacky content creator any clicks."

That's not a point of debate-that's childhood playground lingo. Just be glad your ancestors were able to thrive in a Protestant country so you could freely choose Orthodoxy instead of having it imposed on you by government fiat.

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Dispensationalist Christianity deserves 100% of the mockery that it receives.

I've gone into this on other threads so I'm not gonna sit here and just rehash it

The slimmest percentage of Christians accept this theology. Somewhere in the 3 to 7% range.

It is absolute lunacy

There is no nice way to put it. It is borderline anti-Christian at best.

If you believe it, that's fine, but don't sit here and try to pretend like it is remotely mainstream or that the rest of the Christian world doesn't consider you to be an absolute lunatic.

In regards to your Protestant Haven myth:

Early Protestant regimes were deeply theocratic and intolerant. The Puritans in Massachusetts hanged Quakers, banned Catholic priests under pain of death, and jailed and executed Baptists.

John Calvin burned Michael Servetus at the stake in Geneva.

Religious freedom wasn't an act of Protestant benevolence. It was a necessity born out of Enlightened statecraft to keep competing, squabbling Protestant sects from persecuting each other.

Even in regards to commercialism and capitalism commercial hubs, contract law, banking, and market economics were developed centuries before the Reformation in Catholic Italian city-states (Venice, Florence, Genoa) and medieval Flanders, not by American Protestants.

I'm genuinely starting to question whether this is trolling or genuine ignorance.

If this was purely trolling, you are honestly terrible at it.

I genuinely want to have meaningful conversation with people, but there is nothing meaningful or genuine in your posts. You are reaping a lot of the attitude that you put into the world.

I am equally at fault for participating in it as I believe subconsciously, you are desperately seeking answers to questions that your current version of the Christian faith does not satisfy.

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Dispensationalist theology is very American phenomenon... much like the LDS.

KingofHazor said:

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Interesting, the guy who disclaims "divisiveness" is lobbing grenades non-stop at fellow Christians in the name of "unity".

Very persuasive. /not

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I have addressed this, and I have owned my part in this

UTex has constantly trolled this thread, has offered no actual discussion or debate, and has persistently just attempted gotcha statements and has never attempted heartfelt or genuine discussion

This thread is reaping the division and hatefulness that he sowed

I am not without blame for keeping it going

There is a very fine line that I am not great at walking between trying not to engage someone who does not want genuine discussion, but also not just letting them say anything that they want and confronting the troll.

I don't know how to do it any better. I wish I did.

We all are guilty of that. I am especially.

In this era of people like Talarico who are posing as Christians, genuine Christians need to be unified and focus on what we have in common rather than our differences. Back in the 70s and 80s, my mom was extremely active in the pro-life movement, especially at the grass roots level. I remember her commenting back then that one of the small blessings of abortion was that it caused Protestants and Catholics to work together and discover what they have in common rather than what separates them.

Abortion was just the beginning. People like Talarico are now fundamentally opposed to everything in orthodox (small "O" orthodox) Christianity. The left is filled with the spirit of the Antichrist.

10andBOUNCE said:

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CrackerJackAg said:

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KingofHazor said:

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Quote:

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If you're a protestant and you're making the argument that it's OK because the Catholic Church does it then I find that equally fascinating.

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I am by no means arguing that it's OK.

I am arguing that your attribution of Talarico to Protestantism is ****oo.

Stalin attended a Russian Orthodox seminary for ~5 years in training to be a priest.

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Protestantism directly allowed and encouraged Talarico to personally interpret the scripture in the way that his heart felt compelled.

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How does the interpretation of Scripture play out in the life of a Catholic or EO person? Do you read the Bible in your own time both individually and as a family? If so, how do not interpret what it is saying and ensure you stay within the bounds of what your Tradition teaches? Genuinely asking, not trying to be cute.

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I didn't think you were. It's a valid question that I too was confronted with.

In the Orthodox Church, we have to believe the scripture only means one thing and it really isn't open to interpretation.

It only ever met one thing from the beginning, and it still means that today.

We had Church, Tradition and the Fathers that were all alive during the time these things were written.

We have relied on these pillars to provide us correct (Orthodox) understanding of the scriptures.

I read scripture personally and rely on the Church when I need understanding.

I have also been fortunate and never have been unsatisfied with the teaching. Especially when it comes from a highly educated, patient and intelligent Orthodox Priest.

The education requirement to become an Orthodox priest is pretty high.

I personally started seminary to become a deacon, ultimately chose not to do because I did not want the responsibility. Even for that level a bachelors degree is the minimum requirement.

Most of our Priest have advanced secular degrees before seminary.

10andBOUNCE said:

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Thanks, that is helpful.

Even with the different heroes (I agree they certainly are), they didn't necessarily all have the same exact interpretation of passages, with some even disagreeing. Does the church have something that adjudicates some of that? Do you have a list of approved Church Fathers vs those you should perhaps not read much into?

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That's not so much the case as the Church Fathers are not infallible.

They can be right and they can be wrong on other things

These types of things have been adjudicated in ecumenical councils.

There are significant Orthodox Saints that have been exiled at times for incorrect beliefs.

That said you can't go wrong with some. Athenasius, John Chrysostom, etc..,

John Chrysostom is my all time favorite.

Origin is fun but you gotta know what to watch out for.

If you read scripture, understand its correct application and use it as your measuring stick along with the readings of the Church Fathers you can end up with a really rich understanding.

10andBOUNCE said:

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I will submit that as I have spent much more time going through the history of the church from the time of the Apostles to the Reformation, its a shame that faithful protestant churches have mostly ignored the teaching from these heroes. I don't know what causes it - if seminaries don't study them or pastors/churches (ecclesiastical communities I think is what Rome calls them) try to find more modern or culturally relevant soundbites in their sermons.

I have even talked about with with one of our elders - the idea that the Puritans or other early reformers are mentioned often in the life of our church, but many times the early church fathers are forgotten.

We homeschool and right now my wife is taking our son through The Church History by Eusebius. We are at least trying to do better than what I didn't have.

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This type of realization played a major role in my conversion to orthodoxy

I have always, since I was a kid, wanted to have a good understanding of the things that I was told whether that was biology, football or theology

I remember having a conversation with my southern Baptist preacher. Who was a wonderful man, but like most small town Baptist preachers in the 1980s he was incapable of properly answering an eight year-old that wanted a better understanding of the Trinity.

I spoke with an Orthodox priest in my 30s and I asked that question and he was able to clearly articulate it. I asked him why he was so able to articulate that when every pastor/preacher I've ever asked the question struggled so much.

He responded and told me to just go read "On the Incarnation" by Athanasius.

My mind was blown and I was like there's a ****ing book!!

I genuinely felt lied to, cheated and failed by every religious leader in my life up to that point.

This was also the first time I had ever heard of the concept of Sola Scriptura. That wasn't a term that was ever thrown around in any circle I belonged to. You tended to hear the phrase that we're a "Bible lead church".

Once I found out that there were resources that explained everything I found the concept of Sola Scriptura detestable as I associated it to the intellectual failures (their inability to articulate the theology) of the people who followed it.



*** bit of a rambling voice reply as I'm in the middle of doing something else. Sorry ****

To some extent the reason is pretty simple. They ignore the teaching because the teaching indicts their practices or beliefs.

Zobel said:

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To some extent the reason is pretty simple. They ignore the teaching because the teaching indicts their practices or beliefs.

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I was literally told once as a child it was important not to read "Catholic stuff" because it would make you Catholic.

I didn't have any access to "Catholic stuff" as a kid, but it really made me want to read it.

10andBOUNCE said:

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Zobel said:

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To some extent the reason is pretty simple. They ignore the teaching because the teaching indicts their practices or beliefs.

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To be honest I think this gives them more credit than you are wanting to give them. This would assume they understand what these early fathers actually taught and that is doesn't support the message they are trying to teach. I think it is pure ignorance.

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I completely agree, 10.

As partial confirmation of your point, there are many Protestant scholars who are deeply familiar with the early Church fathers and don't feel any tension between those fathers and their Protestant beliefs. To the contrary, they believe that the early fathers confirm their beliefs.

UTExan said:

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And we know that the Eastern Orthodox persecute evangelicals, Baptists and Pentecostals in some Eastern European countries:
https://www.christianitytoday.com/2024/12/divided-balkans-evangelicals-tiny-number-mighty/

But in the end, it doesn't matter:

Devon Dampier wearing a Jesus Won shirt pic.twitter.com/tizJ2TiJkw

— Joe Coles (@JoeAColes) September 13, 2026

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No one but you is trying to convince any one contrary to that.

ALL PEOPLE OF ALL FAITHS have historically persecuted people for all sorts of reasons

You're the only one trying to hype your sides people as the paragon of virtue and victims.

My faith and members of my Church is full of sinners and all the things that come with it. I'm not sure that rejecting or not accepting American heresies is persecution.

Have they been executing people? I didn't read your propaganda article from the site you linked. It's not journalism.



That said:

American Evangelicals often go uninvited into historic Orthodox lands with Western donor money, treat nations that held the faith through centuries of Ottoman subjugation and Communist firing squads like unevangelized pagan territory, and then cry "persecution" when local communities reject goofy American born foreign proselytizers with a belief system they only recognize as marginally Christian.

UTExan said:

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You would think that an ethnically based church would not be threatened by evangelicals if evangelicals are as theologically bankrupt as you seem to believe.

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The people there view American evangelical protestants basically like you guys view Mormons or JW knocking on your door on Saturday morning.

You're not avoiding them from fear. It means you don't want that crap in your home.

Shepherds guard their flock against wolves because they love the sheep, not because they're personally afraid of the wolf.

Orthodoxy communities aren't threatened by modern American theological novelties. They simply have no interest in letting foreign sects confuse their people and peddle a counterfeit gospel.

You are genuinely terrible at trolling.

CrackerJackAg said:

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UTExan said:

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And we know that the Eastern Orthodox persecute evangelicals, Baptists and Pentecostals in some Eastern European countries:
https://www.christianitytoday.com/2024/12/divided-balkans-evangelicals-tiny-number-mighty/

But in the end, it doesn't matter:

Devon Dampier wearing a Jesus Won shirt pic.twitter.com/tizJ2TiJkw

— Joe Coles (@JoeAColes) September 13, 2026

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No one but you is trying to convince any one contrary to that.

ALL PEOPLE OF ALL FAITHS have historically persecuted people for all sorts of reasons

You're the only one trying to hype your sides people as the paragon of virtue and victims.

My faith and members of my Church is full of sinners and all the things that come with it. I'm not sure that rejecting or not accepting American heresies is persecution.

Have they been executing people? I didn't read your propaganda article from the site you linked. It's not journalism.



That said:

American Evangelicals often go uninvited into historic Orthodox lands with Western donor money, treat nations that held the faith through centuries of Ottoman subjugation and Communist firing squads like unevangelized pagan territory, and then cry "persecution" when local communities reject goofy American born foreign proselytizers with a belief system they only recognize as marginally Christian.

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This x a million. The level of patronizing is off the chart, Grace Cowboy Church will take a mission trip to distribute Sportsman's bibles in a region that has been practicing Christianity since 37 AD.

UTExan said:

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Vox Clamantis said:

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CrackerJackAg said:

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UTExan said:

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And we know that the Eastern Orthodox persecute evangelicals, Baptists and Pentecostals in some Eastern European countries:
https://www.christianitytoday.com/2024/12/divided-balkans-evangelicals-tiny-number-mighty/

But in the end, it doesn't matter:

Devon Dampier wearing a Jesus Won shirt pic.twitter.com/tizJ2TiJkw

— Joe Coles (@JoeAColes) September 13, 2026

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No one but you is trying to convince any one contrary to that.

ALL PEOPLE OF ALL FAITHS have historically persecuted people for all sorts of reasons

You're the only one trying to hype your sides people as the paragon of virtue and victims.

My faith and members of my Church is full of sinners and all the things that come with it. I'm not sure that rejecting or not accepting American heresies is persecution.

Have they been executing people? I didn't read your propaganda article from the site you linked. It's not journalism.



That said:

American Evangelicals often go uninvited into historic Orthodox lands with Western donor money, treat nations that held the faith through centuries of Ottoman subjugation and Communist firing squads like unevangelized pagan territory, and then cry "persecution" when local communities reject goofy American born foreign proselytizers with a belief system they only recognize as marginally Christian.

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This x a million. The level of patronizing is off the chart, Grace Cowboy Church will take a mission trip to distribute Sportsman's bibles in a region that has been practicing Christianity since 37 AD.

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Then why does the government of Orthodox Greece make it a crime to proselytize?

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Once again, you are completely ignorant of the facts as you're repeating a 40-year-old talking point without knowing the actual law.

Article 13 of the Greek Constitution guarantees total freedom of religious worship. Evangelical churches, Catholic parishes, and mosques operate openly all over Greece.

The old 1930's statute specifically targeted predatory and coercive proselytism.

The European Court of Human Rights long ago clarified that non-coercive religious witness is fully protected. Nobody in modern Greece is being thrown in jail for preaching the Gospel.

What Greeks object to isn't a Christian talking about Christ.

American parachurch groups using Western money and predatory tactics to aggressively target Orthodox believers in a land that was reading Paul's epistles in the original Greek while Western Europe was living in mud huts is the actual issue. They simply just don't accept or respect the Water down goofy American Protestantism that you're bringing to their door.

Having Your version of Christianity outright rejected is not the same thing as persecution.

You can hop on a plane right now go to Greece and go evangelize all that you want.