Hail, FULL of Grace!! While Jesus is holy by His very nature, Mary is holy by the Grace of God...
Behold YOUR Mother
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Last: 1 day ago by 747Ag
Hail, FULL of Grace!! While Jesus is holy by His very nature, Mary is holy by the Grace of God...
How is this not idolatry?
Maximus Johnson said:
How is this not idolatry?
Why would it be?
Rufus' mother is Paul's mother. (Rom. 16:13)
Free Jerusalem is Paul's mother. (Gal. 4:26)
Paul was the Thessalonians' mother. (1 Thes. 2:7)
Older women are the church's mothers. (1 Tim. 5:2)
Rome is the mother of prostitutes. (Rev. 17:5)
Free Jerusalem is Paul's mother. (Gal. 4:26)
Paul was the Thessalonians' mother. (1 Thes. 2:7)
Older women are the church's mothers. (1 Tim. 5:2)
Rome is the mother of prostitutes. (Rev. 17:5)
"For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus who gave himself as a ransom for all people". 1 Timothy 2:5-6
The sovereign word of God (the bible) specifically says that there is no need to pray to Mary as an intercessor or meditator or whatever else you want to refer to her as. God himself hears all of your prayers and has time for you. Pretending like he doesn't is an insult to his divinity.
The sovereign word of God (the bible) specifically says that there is no need to pray to Mary as an intercessor or meditator or whatever else you want to refer to her as. God himself hears all of your prayers and has time for you. Pretending like he doesn't is an insult to his divinity.
Maximus Johnson said:
"For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus who gave himself as a ransom for all people". 1 Timothy 2:5-6
The sovereign word of God (the bible) specifically says that there is no need to pray to Mary as an intercessor or meditator or whatever else you want to refer to her as. God himself hears all of your prayers and has time for you. Pretending like he doesn't is an insult to his divinity.
Meh... it's not worship, though. And don't pray for your friends and family nor ask them to pray for you.
I'd love a Biblical explanation of the lady bugs
I specifically chose to not use the word worship in my commentary because I knew I would get this response..... yet here we are again.
God sent his only begotten son to earth to not only be a mediator between man and the father, but to live a human life, die for our sins and give all that would place their faith in him new life yet Catholics seem to throw all of that out of the window and pray to saints and other biblical (and created) figures in lieu of the son.
God sent his only begotten son to earth to not only be a mediator between man and the father, but to live a human life, die for our sins and give all that would place their faith in him new life yet Catholics seem to throw all of that out of the window and pray to saints and other biblical (and created) figures in lieu of the son.
747Ag said:Maximus Johnson said:
"For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus who gave himself as a ransom for all people". 1 Timothy 2:5-6
The sovereign word of God (the bible) specifically says that there is no need to pray to Mary as an intercessor or meditator or whatever else you want to refer to her as. God himself hears all of your prayers and has time for you. Pretending like he doesn't is an insult to his divinity.
Meh... it's not worship, though. And don't pray for your friends and family nor ask them to pray for you.
Have you seen your prayers to Mary? If I said those words to my friends and family they would rightly accuse me of idolatry.
Idolatry is idol + latreia which means service or worship, specifically sacrifice. That's why it's said you are to neither bow down or worship idols. nobody is making sacrifices to Mary.
As for the intercession of the saints, as presented (just pray to the Father) we should never pray to Jesus, or the Holy Spirit - much less ask your family or friends for prayers. If someone asked you to pray for them would you say "lol no that's worship and challenges God's divinity - pray to Him yourself"?
As for the intercession of the saints, as presented (just pray to the Father) we should never pray to Jesus, or the Holy Spirit - much less ask your family or friends for prayers. If someone asked you to pray for them would you say "lol no that's worship and challenges God's divinity - pray to Him yourself"?
Martin Q. Blank said:747Ag said:Maximus Johnson said:
"For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus who gave himself as a ransom for all people". 1 Timothy 2:5-6
The sovereign word of God (the bible) specifically says that there is no need to pray to Mary as an intercessor or meditator or whatever else you want to refer to her as. God himself hears all of your prayers and has time for you. Pretending like he doesn't is an insult to his divinity.
Meh... it's not worship, though. And don't pray for your friends and family nor ask them to pray for you.
Have you seen your prayers to Mary? If I said those words to my friends and family they would rightly accuse me of idolatry.
I have. Such an incredible treasury. Our Lady of Sorrows has particular importance to me. Simeon's prophecy.
But alas, we speak a different dialect of Christianity so-to-speak. We have many different cultural presuppositions that inform our meanings too. It goes deeper than the English English vs American English thing... we both might say biscuit, but we are talking about different things.
Maximus Johnson said:
I specifically chose to not use the word worship in my commentary because I knew I would get this response..... yet here we are again.
God sent his only begotten son to earth to not only be a mediator between man and the father, but to live a human life, die for our sins and give all that would place their faith in him new life yet Catholics seem to throw all of that out of the window and pray to saints and other biblical (and created) figures in lieu of the son.
Stop mediating, then. It's not your role.
In what way am I mediating?
10andBOUNCE said:
I'd love a Biblical explanation of the lady bugs
Anyone?
10andBOUNCE said:10andBOUNCE said:
I'd love a Biblical explanation of the lady bugs
Anyone?
According to Gemini:
The Legend of the "Our Lady's Bird"
During the Middle Ages, crops in Europe were being destroyed by swarms of aphids (pests). According to legend, the Catholic farmers prayed to the Virgin Mary for help. Soon after, thousands of small, red beetles appeared and devoured the pests, saving the harvest.
In gratitude, the farmers called them "Beetles of Our Lady." This eventually evolved into:
- English: Ladybug (or Ladybird)
- German: Marienkfer (Mary's beetle)
- Spanish: Mariquita (Little Mary)
Artists and traditions began using the ladybug's physical appearance to represent specific theological concepts:
- The Red Shell: Symbolizes Mary's red cloak in early iconography, often representing the Passion of Christ or divine love.
- The Seven Spots: The most common species in Europe has seven spots. These were said to represent the Seven Sorrows of Mary (and sometimes the Seven Joys).
- The Black Spots: Just as the red represents her cloak, the black spots were sometimes seen as the "nails" of the crucifixion or the sorrows she carried.
While the Church doesn't have a formal doctrine on insects, the ladybug remains a popular symbol of protection, intercession, and grace in Christian folk art. It's a classic example of how people throughout history have looked at the natural world to find reminders of their faith.
Paul recommends intercessory prayer, something Catholics really believe; protestants - not so much.
Revelation 12:17 says that we are her children IF we obey the commandments and bear testimony that Jesus is the Christ, something Catholics strive to do every day.
Jesus, like all dying people, gave away his most precious possession (him Mom), to His children (Us), his beloved disciples, when he said "behold your mother."
Revelation 12:17 says that we are her children IF we obey the commandments and bear testimony that Jesus is the Christ, something Catholics strive to do every day.
Jesus, like all dying people, gave away his most precious possession (him Mom), to His children (Us), his beloved disciples, when he said "behold your mother."
Where does Paul recommend intercessory prayer? I cant find it....
Revaluation 12:17 says "Then the dragon was enraged at the woman and went to wage war against the rest of her offspring - those who keep God's commands and hold fast their testimony about Jesus." Do you desire to be a child of Mary or a child of the living god? Or both? What about the sole divine nature of the trinity?
Where did Jesus give his mother to us? If you are referring to John 19 are you sure that counts for all of us or only the sanctified that the church chooses?
Revaluation 12:17 says "Then the dragon was enraged at the woman and went to wage war against the rest of her offspring - those who keep God's commands and hold fast their testimony about Jesus." Do you desire to be a child of Mary or a child of the living god? Or both? What about the sole divine nature of the trinity?
Where did Jesus give his mother to us? If you are referring to John 19 are you sure that counts for all of us or only the sanctified that the church chooses?
Maximus Johnson said:
In what way am I mediating?
Whenever you pray for someone...
Maximus Johnson said:
Where does Paul recommend intercessory prayer? I cant find it....
Revaluation 12:17 says "Then the dragon was enraged at the woman and went to wage war against the rest of her offspring - those who keep God's commands and hold fast their testimony about Jesus." Do you desire to be a child of Mary or a child of the living god? Or both? What about the sole divine nature of the trinity?
Where did Jesus give his mother to us? If you are referring to John 19 are you sure that counts for all of us or only the sanctified that the church chooses?
Not who you ask but St. Paul said I want men everywhere to lift up holy hands in prayer and to pray for all the saints. St James says to pray for each other.
I don't know why you would create a dichotomy between the offspring of the woman - who is a figure of the church - and being offspring of God. People who keep God's commands and hold fast to the testimony of Jesus are the church, and the offspring of God. How is this a problem? Mary is the mother of Christ Jesus, the mother of God in the flesh. He is the head of the church, we are joined to His Body - spirit and flesh. He's our brother, the Heir, therefore in a very real way she is our adopted mother. The church, also, is our mother. None of this has anything to do with the Trinity; no one is making the Theotokos out to be a god by nature. A god by grace, sure, but this is the promise to all who are faithful.
I'm not sure exactly what you mean about the sanctified faithful or how you'd make that distinction, but St John draws a lot of parallels between Mary and Eve - woman and mother, the one who rebelled and the one who obeyed. Eve was woman, became Eve when she became mother of all. Mary also women, and became mother of all through Christ. That this specific call out happens at the cross and the crux or centerpoint of everything is significant.
I agree with you that in the book of James he instructs us to pray for each other. That said, not one time does the bible instruct us to call on saints to act as a mediator between us and the Son or the Father. Both in the old covenant and new. Not one time does the sovereign word of God command us not to go directly to him. God instructs us to do the opposite of call on a mediator all throughout scripture. Here are some examples:
Psalm 50:15 : Call upon Me in the day of trouble.
1 Timothy 2:5 : For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus.
The only way you can dispute this is to proclaim that the bible is not the sovereign word of God and should not be taken literally, or throw out the catholic argument of "dont you pray for your friends" that was mentioned in this thread a few times already. The bible instructs us to pray for members of the church many times in the new testament and as you mentioned in the book of James. However, it never mentions asking for the intercession of departed biblical figures and doing so is an insult to the divinity of the Father, Son and Spirit.
Psalm 50:15 : Call upon Me in the day of trouble.
1 Timothy 2:5 : For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus.
The only way you can dispute this is to proclaim that the bible is not the sovereign word of God and should not be taken literally, or throw out the catholic argument of "dont you pray for your friends" that was mentioned in this thread a few times already. The bible instructs us to pray for members of the church many times in the new testament and as you mentioned in the book of James. However, it never mentions asking for the intercession of departed biblical figures and doing so is an insult to the divinity of the Father, Son and Spirit.
Would be interested to learn the "orthodox" interpretation on Matthew 12:46-50
While he was still speaking to the people, behold, his mother and his brothers stood outside, asking to speak to him. But he replied to the man who told him, "Who is my mother, and who are my brothers?" And stretching out his hand toward his disciples, he said, "Here are my mother and my brothers! For whoever does the will of my Father in heaven is my brother and sister and mother."
While he was still speaking to the people, behold, his mother and his brothers stood outside, asking to speak to him. But he replied to the man who told him, "Who is my mother, and who are my brothers?" And stretching out his hand toward his disciples, he said, "Here are my mother and my brothers! For whoever does the will of my Father in heaven is my brother and sister and mother."
Maximus Johnson said:
Where does Paul recommend intercessory prayer? I cant find it....
Revaluation 12:17 says "Then the dragon was enraged at the woman and went to wage war against the rest of her offspring - those who keep God's commands and hold fast their testimony about Jesus." Do you desire to be a child of Mary or a child of the living god? Or both? What about the sole divine nature of the trinity?
Where did Jesus give his mother to us? If you are referring to John 19 are you sure that counts for all of us or only the sanctified that the church chooses?
Thaddeus is of the incorrect belief that Revelation 12 is about Mary.
When you realize he's searching the scriptures for Mary, it all begins to make sense.
That's my major issue with the whole saints/mary thing. It seems like the catholic institution looks for and to non-Jesus biblical figures equally to or as much they look to Jesus. It is not mentioned in scripture therefore it has to have come from sinful man.
I will spend the rest of my days loving and following Jesus. There is nobody else to look to. It is because of HIM we are saved. I pray to HIM and only HIM as he commanded me to.
I will spend the rest of my days loving and following Jesus. There is nobody else to look to. It is because of HIM we are saved. I pray to HIM and only HIM as he commanded me to.
I still wanna know more about the lady bugs
Quote:
Thaddeus is of the incorrect belief that Revelation 12 is about Mary.
When you realize he's searching the scriptures for Mary, it all begins to make sense.
Well, let's see here...The plain meaning of scripture, with no protestant twists to deny what it actually says...
Revelation 12: And the dragon stood before the woman who was about to bear a child, that he might devour her child when she brought it forth; 5 she brought forth a male child, one who is to rule all the nations with a rod of iron, but her child was caught up to God and to his throne,
dragon = devil
woman = Mary
male child = Jesus
What other possible interpretation could there be?
Mary does represent the Church, but the church didn't give birth to Jesus; Jesus gave birth to the Church. And It can't be Jerusalem, who was destroyed by God for being the ***** of Babylon...It can only be Mary.
Paul recommends intercessory prayer in 1 Timothy 2:1...
Except for the numerous other times where the church is referred to as the bride of Christ in the New Testament including in the book of revelation.
Thaddeus73 said:
Paul recommends intercessory prayer in 1 Timothy 2:1...
2 First of all, then, I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all people, 2 for kings and all who are in high positions, that we may lead a peaceful and quiet life, godly and dignified in every way. 3 This is good, and it is pleasing in the sight of God our Savior, 4 who desires all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man[a] Christ Jesus, 6 who gave himself as a ransom for all, which is the testimony given at the proper time
Keep reading man. You cant take this stuff out of context.
One mediator of what?
Jesus alone bridges the gap between God and humanity
He does so because He is:
Fully God
Fully man
No angel, saint, priest, or pastor replaces or competes with this role
This is grounded in:
His incarnation ("the man Christ Jesus")
His atoning sacrifice ("ransom for all")
He does so because He is:
Fully God
Fully man
No angel, saint, priest, or pastor replaces or competes with this role
This is grounded in:
His incarnation ("the man Christ Jesus")
His atoning sacrifice ("ransom for all")
Y'all see this as some sort of competition or zero-sum game or something...
Catholics and Orthodox see Our Lady and other saints as bringing us to Him. And really, that just what She did some 25+ years ago for me (under the title of Our Lady of Sorrows (Mater Dolorosa)... Her intervention (in cooperation with Her Son's will... which is always how it works, btw) brought me to a pivotal moment of repentance and continuing repentance. She'll never stop being a part of my spiritual life because of this. She is the disciple par excellence and She continues to work towards bringing souls to Her Divine Son.
Catholics and Orthodox see Our Lady and other saints as bringing us to Him. And really, that just what She did some 25+ years ago for me (under the title of Our Lady of Sorrows (Mater Dolorosa)... Her intervention (in cooperation with Her Son's will... which is always how it works, btw) brought me to a pivotal moment of repentance and continuing repentance. She'll never stop being a part of my spiritual life because of this. She is the disciple par excellence and She continues to work towards bringing souls to Her Divine Son.
According to Hebrews, Jesus is the one mediator of the New Covenant. How this becomes intercessory prayer that Paul highly recommends is truly a mystery for the ages. They are NOT the same thing.
747Ag said:
Y'all see this as some sort of competition or zero-sum game or something...
Catholics and Orthodox see Our Lady and other saints as bringing us to Him. And really, that just what She did some 25+ years ago for me (under the title of Our Lady of Sorrows (Mater Dolorosa)... Her intervention (in cooperation with Her Son's will... which is always how it works, btw) brought me to a pivotal moment of repentance and continuing repentance. She'll never stop being a part of my spiritual life because of this. She is the disciple par excellence and She continues to work towards bringing souls to Her Divine Son.
Or I could talk about the fragrance of roses in my house the time we had the traveling image of Our Lady of Guadalupe (who helped bring many, many souls to Our Blessed Lord in the 16th century).
I don't speak for every Protestant, but at least for me. It is almost a zero sum game. Either God, the father God, the Christ and God the spirit is the entity that we pray to, or there is some kind of pagan idolatry at work.
I believe the scriptures point to that very clearly as I have demonstrated. Everything outside of the scriptures is a product of sinful man. There is no in between. It is God and God only or nothing.
I believe the scriptures point to that very clearly as I have demonstrated. Everything outside of the scriptures is a product of sinful man. There is no in between. It is God and God only or nothing.
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