10andBOUNCE said:

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The Banned said:

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10andBOUNCE said:

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10andBOUNCE said:

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Would be interested to learn the "orthodox" interpretation on Matthew 12:46-50

While he was still speaking to the people, behold, his mother and his brothers stood outside, asking to speak to him. But he replied to the man who told him, "Who is my mother, and who are my brothers?" And stretching out his hand toward his disciples, he said, "Here are my mother and my brothers! For whoever does the will of my Father in heaven is my brother and sister and mother."

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I think this got buried but would still be interested in the "orthodox" interpretation and application here. Genuinely interested.

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If you look at the fathers who wrote on this, you'll see that they are showing how this passage is saying that those who do God's will are Jesus' true kin. Mary clearly did God's will, so she isn't being downgraded here.

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Thanks, I do not look to try and downgrade Mary. That was not my intent in asking or setting up another question.

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I don't think you meant it that way. The fathers were just careful to make that point.

By not saying "John, behold your mother," but saying to the beloved disciple "Behold your mother," that means that he is addressing all beloved disciples (you and me) in his last will and testament, giving away his most prized possession, His mother, to His other children, you and me. Just as Eve became the physical mother of us all at the foot of the tree of knowledge of good and evil in Genesis, just so, Mary becomes the spiritual mother of us all at the foot of the tree of life aka the cross in John....

As the angel told Joseph, "Don't be afraid to take Mary into your home."

Faithful Ag said:

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AgLiving06 said:

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Zobel said:

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What is different about asking me to pray for you (obviously ok) and asking the Theotokos to pray for you (obviously ok in my book, categorically different in yours)? I don't understand the difference, so to me one is as obvious as the other. What is the difference?

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This is the most common response, but I've come to believe it falls flat.

This is what you are essentially claiming (please correct if I misunderstand it).

I reach out to you via some physical/personal medium (I talk to you on the phone, in-person, I text/email and you acknowledge, etc) and you respond by praying for me.

I reach out to Mary and ask her to pray for me (whether spoken outload, or in my mind, or written down, etc.), she hears this prayer and prays for me.

That's the comparison I think you want us to make.
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The challenge the Reformers, and frankly anybody should have is do we have any reason to believe that Mary, or any Saint, can hear these prayers?

The Lutherans asked that question:

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Moreover, even supposing that the saints pray for the Church ever so much, 10 yet it does not follow that they are to be invoked; although our Confession affirms only this, that Scripture does not teach the invocation of the saints, or that we are to ask the saints for aid. But since neither a command, nor a promise, nor an example can be produced from the Scriptures concerning the invocation of saints, it follows that conscience can have nothing concerning this invocation that is certain. And since prayer ought to be made from faith, how do we know that God approves this invocation? Whence do we know without the testimony of Scripture that the saints perceive the prayers of each one?

Nothing can be produced by the adversaries against this reasoning, that, since invocation does not have a testimony from God's Word, it cannot be affirmed that the saints understand our invocation, or, even if they understand it, that God approves it.


(Source: https://bookofconcord.org/defense/of-the-invocation-of-saints/ )

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And that becomes the difference. If we have no way of knowing whether Mary can hear us, nor whether God even approves of such behavior.
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To get ahead of the standard response from Rome, yes the Saints and Mary are alive in Christ. Part of a living Church, but that doesn't answer the question.

If I, at my desk right now in Texas, silently ask someone to pray from me, who is in another country, state, even building (ie. I do not actively reach out to them), I should not have any expectation that they heard me.
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So your example becomes apples to oranges because we do not have a reasonable belief that Mary (or other Saints) actively hear every individual prayer made to them.

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Can I pray for you without you asking me to pray for you? Is it a requirement that for my prayer for another person to be effective that person must have specifically asked me to pray for them and that I acknowledge their request?? No. It is not.

Additionally, you have as much reason to doubt Mary's ability to hear our petition as I have to believe in faith she does hear my petition…actually you should have more reason to doubt she cannot hear us and we have more reason to believe she can because Christians going back to the earliest times seek the intercession of the Martyrs and the Saints.

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I used apples and oranges before, so oranges and pears?

Can you pray for me without me asking? Of course. Scripture is full of those examples.

Paul prayers for those in Rome (Romans 1) before he's been there (example)

Edit: deleted this on accident....WE even know from Revelation 5 that the Saints in heaven pray for the Church on earth in general.

But the claim made was not this.
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The claim was there is no perceived difference between me asking you to pray for me and me asking Mary to pray for me.

Faithful Ag said:

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AgLiving 06 said:

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WE even know from Revelation 5 that the Saints in heaven pray for the Church on earth in general.

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Careful in your interpretations, friend. You seem to be going beyond what is written in the text of Revelation and adding words and meanings that are not explicitly there. Nothing speaks to the prayers of the saints being limited to general prayers excluding specific or intercessory prayers on behalf of us.

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Revelation 5
And when he had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each holding a harp, and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints.

Revelation 8
And another angel came and stood at the altar with a golden censer, and he was given much incense to offer with the prayers of all the saints on the golden altar before the throne, and the smoke of the incense, with the prayers of the saints, rose before God from the hand of the angel.

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AgLiving 06 said:

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The claim was there is no perceived difference between me asking you to pray for me and me asking Mary to pray for me.

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No…you are shifting the issue FROM the question of can/should Christians be praying to the saints (as has been practiced in Orthodox and Catholic Churches for 2,000 years) TO how can the saints hear our prayers and what can/do they do with them. The apples and oranges you state as the proof misses the mark because the communion of saints in Heaven are different than those of us on earth still running our race. The fact that we do not know the how is irrelevant to us.

Furthermore, you could ask me to pray for you and I could respond to you that yes, I will pray for. This does not mean that I actually do or did pray for you. It also does not guarantee that my prayers were effective for your cause. The prayers of Mary, Joseph, and the saints we know will be effective.

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I've been completely consistent.

The question posed by Zobel was:

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What is different about asking me to pray for you (obviously ok) and asking the Theotokos to pray for you (obviously ok in my book, categorically different in yours)?

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I then gave an example to show the difference.

You then posed the following:

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Can I pray for you without you asking me to pray for you? Is it a requirement that for my prayer for another person to be effective that person must have specifically asked me to pray for them and that I acknowledge their request?? No. It is not.

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I'll again point out that what you proposed is materially different than what Zobel pointed out.

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If you want to, as you've just done, fall back on "well this is what Rome has done" that's fine. We should all be able to agree that it's not a Scriptural idea, but a "tradition."

That's more or less what the Reformers have offered.

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The opponents cannot produce anything against our argument that since invocation lacks the testimony of God's Word, we cannot possibly affirm that the saints are aware of our invocation or, supposing that they are aware, that God approves it. [13] Therefore the opponents should not force us to adopt something so uncertain, because prayer without faith is not prayer. For when they cite the example of the church, it becomes clear that this is a new custom in the church; for even when the ancient prayers mention the saints, they still do not invoke the saints. Besides, this novel invocation is not the same as the invocation of individuals.

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More interesting is this comment:

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[11] Some evidently attribute divinity to the saints, namely, that they discern the silent thoughts of our minds. They debate about "morning knowledge" and "evening knowledge," perhaps because they have some doubt whether the saints hear us in the morning or in the evening. They invent these things not for the purpose of honoring the saints but to defend their lucrative worship.

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So...if you want to appeal to "this is what Rome does," that's fine. That doesn't mean it's right or that there is any Scriptural support for it.
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Revelation 5: Notice who is spoken of.
Lamb: Jesus
4 Living Creatures: LIkely the cherubim and seraphim
24 Elders: Symbolizing the church.

They hold up prayers of the church.

This is clearly not a specific "saint" holding up specific prayers to said saint, but instead the prayers of the entire church held up to Jesus.

We then get specific about what the prayers of the saints and angels in heaven are giving:

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Worthy are you to take the scroll
and to open its seals,
for you were slain, and by your blood you ransomed people for God
from every tribe and language and people and nation,
10 and you have made them a kingdom and priests to our God,
and they shall reign on the earth."

The Holy Bible: English Standard Version (Wheaton, IL: Crossway Bibles, 2025), Re 5:910.

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Quote:

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Worthy is the Lamb who was slain,
to receive power and wealth and wisdom and might
and honor and glory and blessing!"

The Holy Bible: English Standard Version (Wheaton, IL: Crossway Bibles, 2025), Re 5:12.

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It would be a significant leap to somehow claim that the 24 elders had any clue WHAT the specific prayers were. They were holding them up to the Lamb of God or Jesus.

AgLiving 06 said:

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So...if you want to appeal to "this is what Rome does," that's fine. That doesn't mean it's right or that there is any Scriptural support for it.

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As I stated above, my appeal is not only to Rome, but is also evidenced in what Rome and the Orthodox have practiced consistently and continuously for 2,000 years. Intercessory prayer and invoking the saints was the common practice for Christians for the first 1,500 years and continues to this day. I'll fall back on Apostolic, historic Christianity and trust the visible and authoritative Church through whom we receive the deposit of faith including the Scriptures.

Faithful Ag said:

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AgLiving 06 said:

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So...if you want to appeal to "this is what Rome does," that's fine. That doesn't mean it's right or that there is any Scriptural support for it.

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As I stated above, my appeal is not only to Rome, but is also evidenced in what Rome and the Orthodox have practiced consistently and continuously for 2,000 years. Intercessory prayer and invoking the saints was the common practice for Christians for the first 1,500 years and continues to this day. I'll fall back on Apostolic, historic Christianity and trust the visible and authoritative Church through whom we receive the deposit of faith including the Scriptures.

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Good! I'm glad we can agree it's not Scriptural. The Reformers were on to something by pointing that out.

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So now to the question of the early church. Did they believe it?

First, to the claim of 2,000 years. That's just not going to hold up. There's no belief that Tertullian, Origin, and others of that time period believed in the Invocation of saints, especially as Rome does today. It's more or less absent. Tertullian has a whole Treatise on Prayer and is completely silent on prayers to the saints.

Second, the question is, what did the next generation begin to do? I think it's clear there are two categories:

Category 1: There are those who are silent on the concept. Irenaeus fits in this category. Specifically Book 2, Ch. 32 as a proof text.

Category 2: Understanding the concept of veneration, but not in the manner that Rome would understand it today. This category is more in the "honor the Saints for their life, death/martyrdom, but no explicit commands or view on true "prayers to the saints." Augustine is a good example of this category. Book 8 in City of God spends a lot of words on this category.

Does it evolve? Certainly. Does that mean it's a correct representation of the early Church? No.

Certainly by the middle ages, the error peaks out. Fortunately Rome has backed off that level, but it's hard to not see the claims around saints as more superstitious than anything else.

Poland and Solidarity were the reason (along with Reagan) that the Berlin wall fell. Poland and Solidarity said a LOT of rosaries. Mary definitely answered those prayers. The Berlin wall fell without firing a shot...

Lol...Reagan just an afterthought. The US certainly did nothing else. All Mary...

And Rome wonders why people call them the Church of Mary.

AgLiving06 said:

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Lol...Reagan just an afterthought. The US certainly did nothing else. All Mary...

And Rome wonders why people call them the Church of Mary.

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We don't wonder; it's obvious: They're stupid