Quote:

---

Stated this is the other thread, but I know not everyone has time to go through 10 pages of that back and forth.

Based on a number of conversations with some of the Calvinist/reformed folks on here, as well as personal interactions,, it's got me thinking that if "faith alone" is true, they have probably reached the most literal conclusion of what that means.

So for those of a different Protestant tradition, I'd like to get your input: if you believe that God calls us and it's on us to respond to the call in the affirmative, are we not, at least in part, saved by a work? If choosing to accept or reject the gift God has given us is not a human work contributing to our salvation, what is it?

---

Read through these 3 passages and the consider the comments below...

Eph 2:8-9 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.

Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness, 6 just as David also speaks of the blessing on the man to whom God credits righteousness apart from works:
7 "Blessed are those whose lawless deeds have been forgiven,
And whose sins have been covered.
8 "Blessed is the man whose sin the Lord will not take into account."

1 Corinthians 15:13 But if there is no resurrection of the dead, not even Christ has been raised; 14 and if Christ has not been raised, then our preaching is vain, your faith also is vain. 15 Moreover we are even found to be false witnesses of God, because we testified against God that He raised Christ, whom He did not raise, if in fact the dead are not raised. 16 For if the dead are not raised, not even Christ has been raised; 17 and if Christ has not been raised, your faith is worthless; you are still in your sins.

I was challenged at one point with this question. Is your faith in Jesus or is your faith in your faith?

• The is a clear distinction about the contrast of faith and works in regards to the moment of justification (the point in time in which a person believes, receives the indwelling Holy Spirit, and is forgiven for all sins for all time, and heaven is guaranteed)
• All of the work for this has been accomplished by the work of God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit. (Eph 1)
• If this work had not been done by God/Jesus: no amount of works or faith has any value and we are dead in our sins.
• The opposite or antithesis of faith or believing is not works. The opposite of faith is to not believe or to reject the gift.
• If one wants to call believing in Jesus' death and resurrection for your sins a work, that's an option. The problem would be adding unnecessary confusion to the gospel and not making it clear. If the bible draws a distinction so should we.

Psalms 33
13The Lord looks from heaven;
He sees all the sons of men;
14 From His dwelling place He looks out
On all the inhabitants of the earth,
15 He who fashions the hearts of them all,
He who understands all their works.
16 The king is not saved by a mighty army;
A warrior is not delivered by great strength.
17 A horse is a false hope for victory;
Nor does it deliver anyone by its great strength.

DirtDiver said:

---

Quote:

---

Stated this is the other thread, but I know not everyone has time to go through 10 pages of that back and forth.

Based on a number of conversations with some of the Calvinist/reformed folks on here, as well as personal interactions,, it's got me thinking that if "faith alone" is true, they have probably reached the most literal conclusion of what that means.

So for those of a different Protestant tradition, I'd like to get your input: if you believe that God calls us and it's on us to respond to the call in the affirmative, are we not, at least in part, saved by a work? If choosing to accept or reject the gift God has given us is not a human work contributing to our salvation, what is it?

---

Read through these 3 passages and the consider the comments below...

Eph 2:8-9 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.

Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness, 6 just as David also speaks of the blessing on the man to whom God credits righteousness apart from works:
7 "Blessed are those whose lawless deeds have been forgiven,
And whose sins have been covered.
8 "Blessed is the man whose sin the Lord will not take into account."

1 Corinthians 15:13 But if there is no resurrection of the dead, not even Christ has been raised; 14 and if Christ has not been raised, then our preaching is vain, your faith also is vain. 15 Moreover we are even found to be false witnesses of God, because we testified against God that He raised Christ, whom He did not raise, if in fact the dead are not raised. 16 For if the dead are not raised, not even Christ has been raised; 17 and if Christ has not been raised, your faith is worthless; you are still in your sins.

I was challenged at one point with this question. Is your faith in Jesus or is your faith in your faith?

• The is a clear distinction about the contrast of faith and works in regards to the moment of justification (the point in time in which a person believes, receives the indwelling Holy Spirit, and is forgiven for all sins for all time, and heaven is guaranteed)
• All of the work for this has been accomplished by the work of God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit. (Eph 1)
• If this work had not been done by God/Jesus: no amount of works or faith has any value and we are dead in our sins.
• The opposite or antithesis of faith or believing is not works. The opposite of faith is to not believe or to reject the gift.
• If one wants to call believing in Jesus' death and resurrection for your sins a work, that's an option. The problem would be adding unnecessary confusion to the gospel and not making it clear. If the bible draws a distinction so should we.

Psalms 33
13The Lord looks from heaven;
He sees all the sons of men;
14 From His dwelling place He looks out
On all the inhabitants of the earth,
15 He who fashions the hearts of them all,
He who understands all their works.
16 The king is not saved by a mighty army;
A warrior is not delivered by great strength.
17 A horse is a false hope for victory;
Nor does it deliver anyone by its great strength.

---

Your faith is expressed not only in a one time acceptance of Christ. Otherwise someone could genuinely state and believe their faith in a moment and if the believer OSAS, then it's possible their desire to sin could return but they'd just believe that's ok. Faith is both an initial acceptance of God's grace and one's perseverance in it. If one does not persevere, scripture tells us we will not inherit the kingdom. Doesn't mean any amount of works is the reason for the salvation but rather remaining in our faith. We do this with the help of the HS but we do not become robots. We desire to be faithful to Christ in how we live. It may not be likely but it's certainly possible to fall away, or we wouldn't have all the warnings about it in scripture

BluHorseShu said:

---

DirtDiver said:

---

Quote:

---

Stated this is the other thread, but I know not everyone has time to go through 10 pages of that back and forth.

Based on a number of conversations with some of the Calvinist/reformed folks on here, as well as personal interactions,, it's got me thinking that if "faith alone" is true, they have probably reached the most literal conclusion of what that means.

So for those of a different Protestant tradition, I'd like to get your input: if you believe that God calls us and it's on us to respond to the call in the affirmative, are we not, at least in part, saved by a work? If choosing to accept or reject the gift God has given us is not a human work contributing to our salvation, what is it?

---

Read through these 3 passages and the consider the comments below...

Eph 2:8-9 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.

Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness, 6 just as David also speaks of the blessing on the man to whom God credits righteousness apart from works:
7 "Blessed are those whose lawless deeds have been forgiven,
And whose sins have been covered.
8 "Blessed is the man whose sin the Lord will not take into account."

1 Corinthians 15:13 But if there is no resurrection of the dead, not even Christ has been raised; 14 and if Christ has not been raised, then our preaching is vain, your faith also is vain. 15 Moreover we are even found to be false witnesses of God, because we testified against God that He raised Christ, whom He did not raise, if in fact the dead are not raised. 16 For if the dead are not raised, not even Christ has been raised; 17 and if Christ has not been raised, your faith is worthless; you are still in your sins.

I was challenged at one point with this question. Is your faith in Jesus or is your faith in your faith?

• The is a clear distinction about the contrast of faith and works in regards to the moment of justification (the point in time in which a person believes, receives the indwelling Holy Spirit, and is forgiven for all sins for all time, and heaven is guaranteed)
• All of the work for this has been accomplished by the work of God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit. (Eph 1)
• If this work had not been done by God/Jesus: no amount of works or faith has any value and we are dead in our sins.
• The opposite or antithesis of faith or believing is not works. The opposite of faith is to not believe or to reject the gift.
• If one wants to call believing in Jesus' death and resurrection for your sins a work, that's an option. The problem would be adding unnecessary confusion to the gospel and not making it clear. If the bible draws a distinction so should we.

Psalms 33
13The Lord looks from heaven;
He sees all the sons of men;
14 From His dwelling place He looks out
On all the inhabitants of the earth,
15 He who fashions the hearts of them all,
He who understands all their works.
16 The king is not saved by a mighty army;
A warrior is not delivered by great strength.
17 A horse is a false hope for victory;
Nor does it deliver anyone by its great strength.

---

Your faith is expressed not only in a one time acceptance of Christ. Otherwise someone could genuinely state and believe their faith in a moment and if the believer OSAS, then it's possible their desire to sin could return but they'd just believe that's ok. Faith is both an initial acceptance of God's grace and one's perseverance in it. If one does not persevere, scripture tells us we will not inherit the kingdom. Doesn't mean any amount of works is the reason for the salvation but rather remaining in our faith. We do this with the help of the HS but we do not become robots. We desire to be faithful to Christ in how we live. It may not be likely but it's certainly possible to fall away, or we wouldn't have all the warnings about it in scripture

---

Jesus gave us the test questions and answers before the test. Maybe we should just listen to him?

Quote:

---

"When the Son of man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne. Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate them one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats, and he will place the sheep at his right hand, but the goats at the left. Then the King will say to those at his right hand, 'Come, O blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world; for I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me, I was naked and you clothed me, I was sick and you visited me, I was in prison and you came to me.' Then the righteous will answer him, 'Lord, when did we see thee hungry and feed thee, or thirsty and give thee drink? And when did we see thee a stranger and welcome thee, or naked and clothe thee? And when did we see thee sick or in prison and visit thee?' And the King will answer them, 'Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brethren, you did it to me.' Then he will say to those at his left hand, 'Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels; for I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink, I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not clothe me, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.' Then they also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see thee hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to thee?' Then he will answer them, 'Truly, I say to you, as you did it not to one of the least of these, you did it not to me.' And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life." (Matthew 25:31-46, RSV-CE)

---

Quote:

---

The problem is the assumption that there is such a thing as a moment of justification that is a point in time, forgiven for all time, and heaven is guaranteed.

---

The moment of faith...

Genesis 15:5 And He took him outside and said, "Now look toward the heavens, and count the stars, if you are able to count them." And He said to him, "So shall your descendants be." 6 Then he believed in the Lord; and He reckoned it to him as righteousness

John 7:38 He who believes in Me, as the Scripture said, 'From his innermost being will flow rivers of living water.'" 39 But this He spoke of the Spirit, whom those who believed in Him were to receive; for the Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.m as righteousness.

2 He said to them, "Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?" And they said to him, "No, we have not even heard whether there is a Holy Spirit."

Romans 5:1 Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,

Quote:

---

Christ says we will be justified or condemned by our words on the Day of Judgment.

---

This is a true statement. The question you must ask is justified in what sense?

Faith alone in Christ alone determines eternal life.
All believers and non-believers will be judged by their works, but not in reference to heaven and hell.

Quote:

---

The entire mechanistic approach of picking apart the work of salvation into some unknowable moment, separate from being made righteous, separate from appearing before the judgment seat of Christ, separate from union with God is wrong from the start.

---

It's a very knowable moment.

Do you or have you ever believed the following?
1. You are a sinner.
2. Jesus died for your sins.
3. Jesus rose from the dead.
and...
4. You have accepted this gift for yourself by faith.

You are not trusting in your denomination, baptism, religious commitment, faithful obedience, effort, knowledge, heritage, selfless giving, etc. These are all good things and will be rewarded for faithful obedience to Christ but save save no one.

Quote:

---

It isn't how the Apostles taught - the scriptures are not theological treatises, they're narrative and letters. People in the ancient world wrote treatises. If Romans were a theological treatise it would have been titled something like On Justification. St Paul was more than capable of writing such a thing. He did not, and we should not attempt to contort what he did write into that... or to construct our own version of On Justification and ascribe it to St Paul.

For example -- it is wrong to pluck a verse like Romans 4:5 out of context (which is a letter reconciling Jewish and non-Jewish Christians) and then burden the words he used like "work" with theological significance that wouldn't exist for centuries. If you read Romans in context, what he's saying is something more like - (beginning in Romans 3:27)

---

Romans in context (from Memory I may miss a few statements)
Intro Romans 1:1-16 Intro: Theme For I am not ashamed of the gospel for it is the power of God unto salvation to all who believe, for it in the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith.

1:17 through 3:23: All are guilty - No one is righteous. It doesn't matter if one is egregiouslous sinful or religiously self righteous.
Verb tense: for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.

3:24 I think through chapter 4: The gospel, justification is free.

Romans 5: results of Justification
Romans 6: gospel defended. Shall I live in sin first half, shall I commit acts of sin second half
Romans 7: why do I still struggle with sin as a believer?
Romans 8: work of the Spirit
Romans 9-10 ish: What about the Jews?
Romans 11 - End How then shall we live?

Romans is a very sequential book and the first part is all about justification, the need for justification and the results of justification.

do you believe you can leave the faith after believing?

BluHorseShu said:

---

DirtDiver said:

---

Quote:

---

Stated this is the other thread, but I know not everyone has time to go through 10 pages of that back and forth.

Based on a number of conversations with some of the Calvinist/reformed folks on here, as well as personal interactions,, it's got me thinking that if "faith alone" is true, they have probably reached the most literal conclusion of what that means.

So for those of a different Protestant tradition, I'd like to get your input: if you believe that God calls us and it's on us to respond to the call in the affirmative, are we not, at least in part, saved by a work? If choosing to accept or reject the gift God has given us is not a human work contributing to our salvation, what is it?

---

Read through these 3 passages and the consider the comments below...

Eph 2:8-9 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.

Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness, 6 just as David also speaks of the blessing on the man to whom God credits righteousness apart from works:
7 "Blessed are those whose lawless deeds have been forgiven,
And whose sins have been covered.
8 "Blessed is the man whose sin the Lord will not take into account."

1 Corinthians 15:13 But if there is no resurrection of the dead, not even Christ has been raised; 14 and if Christ has not been raised, then our preaching is vain, your faith also is vain. 15 Moreover we are even found to be false witnesses of God, because we testified against God that He raised Christ, whom He did not raise, if in fact the dead are not raised. 16 For if the dead are not raised, not even Christ has been raised; 17 and if Christ has not been raised, your faith is worthless; you are still in your sins.

I was challenged at one point with this question. Is your faith in Jesus or is your faith in your faith?

• The is a clear distinction about the contrast of faith and works in regards to the moment of justification (the point in time in which a person believes, receives the indwelling Holy Spirit, and is forgiven for all sins for all time, and heaven is guaranteed)
• All of the work for this has been accomplished by the work of God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit. (Eph 1)
• If this work had not been done by God/Jesus: no amount of works or faith has any value and we are dead in our sins.
• The opposite or antithesis of faith or believing is not works. The opposite of faith is to not believe or to reject the gift.
• If one wants to call believing in Jesus' death and resurrection for your sins a work, that's an option. The problem would be adding unnecessary confusion to the gospel and not making it clear. If the bible draws a distinction so should we.

Psalms 33
13The Lord looks from heaven;
He sees all the sons of men;
14 From His dwelling place He looks out
On all the inhabitants of the earth,
15 He who fashions the hearts of them all,
He who understands all their works.
16 The king is not saved by a mighty army;
A warrior is not delivered by great strength.
17 A horse is a false hope for victory;
Nor does it deliver anyone by its great strength.

---

Your faith is expressed not only in a one time acceptance of Christ. Otherwise someone could genuinely state and believe their faith in a moment and if the believer OSAS, then it's possible their desire to sin could return but they'd just believe that's ok. Faith is both an initial acceptance of God's grace and one's perseverance in it. If one does not persevere, scripture tells us we will not inherit the kingdom. Doesn't mean any amount of works is the reason for the salvation but rather remaining in our faith. We do this with the help of the HS but we do not become robots. We desire to be faithful to Christ in how we live. It may not be likely but it's certainly possible to fall away, or we wouldn't have all the warnings about it in scripture

---

Faith in Jesus is a one time event and a lifetime rollercoaster.

One time event... (Romans 1-4)
Romans 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.

Lifetime challenge... (Romans 11-End)
17 For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith; as it is written, "But the righteous man shall live by faith."


If we are honest with ourselves as believers there is still a desire to sin within us that we wrestle with. Paul wrestled with this as well...

Romans 7:21 I find then the principle that evil is present in me, the one who wants to do good. 22 For I joyfully concur with the law of God in the inner man, 23 but I see a different law in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin which is in my members. 24 Wretched man that I am! Who will set me free from the body of this death? 25 Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, on the one hand I myself with my mind am serving the law of God, but on the other, with my flesh the law of sin.


God saves believers through faith in Jesus. (no bragging on our part)
God desires all believers to be faithful. There are rewards for faithfulness and consequences for unfaithfulness (including early death). Heaven is not at stake because of...

God's promises.
What happens at the moment of justification to a person.
Proof text: Look how affirming Paul is of the Corinthian believers in chapter 1 of 1 Cor. Count how many times he affirms their identity. Then count how many sins Paul addresses in the book.
Heaven is never at stake but the loss of reward for not building on the foundation of Christ is. (chapter 3)

So your answer to "hey you took this verse out of context" is to take more verses out of context?

Even these verses you quote say nothing about being made righteous forever as a one-time event when you first believe.

Quote:

---

All believers and non-believers will be judged by their works but not in reference to heaven and hell.

---

yeah, except every time judgment is spoken of in the scriptures, this is the only criteria given about eternal life. Yes, even by St Paul (e.g., "He will render to each one according to his works: to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life...")

Quote:

---

Romans is a very sequential book and the first part is all about justification, the need for justification and the results of justification.

---

Romans is not about justification at all. Roman is about being Jewish and non-Jewish and how that pertains to salvation.

Which is my whole point about context. The book is not called On Justification. That is not a good title for it. That is not the focus of the book. It is called "A letter to the Romans" because it is a letter, written to a specific group of people at a specific time about a specific struggle. Every part of the book is comparing and contrasting Jewish and non-Jewish believers because the Jews had been expelled from Rome previously and were now returning, and there was contention between Jewish and non-Jewish Christians. That's why he addresses Jews and non-Jews and talks over and over again (even in the passage here) about how both relate to God in the Torah through faithfulness.

If you think Romans is about justification as an abstract concept, you've already missed the bus.

DirtDiver said:

---

Quote:

---

The problem is the assumption that there is such a thing as a moment of justification that is a point in time, forgiven for all time, and heaven is guaranteed.

---

The moment of faith...

Genesis 15:5 And He took him outside and said, "Now look toward the heavens, and count the stars, if you are able to count them." And He said to him, "So shall your descendants be." 6 Then he believed in the Lord; and He reckoned it to him as righteousness

John 7:38 He who believes in Me, as the Scripture said, 'From his innermost being will flow rivers of living water.'" 39 But this He spoke of the Spirit, whom those who believed in Him were to receive; for the Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.m as righteousness.

2 He said to them, "Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?" And they said to him, "No, we have not even heard whether there is a Holy Spirit."

Romans 5:1 Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,

Quote:

---

Christ says we will be justified or condemned by our words on the Day of Judgment.

---

This is a true statement. The question you must ask is justified in what sense?

Faith alone in Christ alone determines eternal life.
All believers and non-believers will be judged by their works, but not in reference to heaven and hell.

Quote:

---

The entire mechanistic approach of picking apart the work of salvation into some unknowable moment, separate from being made righteous, separate from appearing before the judgment seat of Christ, separate from union with God is wrong from the start.

---

It's a very knowable moment.

Do you or have you ever believed the following?
1. You are a sinner.
2. Jesus died for your sins.
3. Jesus rose from the dead.
and...
4. You have accepted this gift for yourself by faith.

You are not trusting in your denomination, baptism, religious commitment, faithful obedience, effort, knowledge, heritage, selfless giving, etc. These are all good things and will be rewarded for faithful obedience to Christ but save save no one.

Quote:

---

It isn't how the Apostles taught - the scriptures are not theological treatises, they're narrative and letters. People in the ancient world wrote treatises. If Romans were a theological treatise it would have been titled something like On Justification. St Paul was more than capable of writing such a thing. He did not, and we should not attempt to contort what he did write into that... or to construct our own version of On Justification and ascribe it to St Paul.

For example -- it is wrong to pluck a verse like Romans 4:5 out of context (which is a letter reconciling Jewish and non-Jewish Christians) and then burden the words he used like "work" with theological significance that wouldn't exist for centuries. If you read Romans in context, what he's saying is something more like - (beginning in Romans 3:27)

---

Romans in context (from Memory I may miss a few statements)
Intro Romans 1:1-16 Intro: Theme For I am not ashamed of the gospel for it is the power of God unto salvation to all who believe, for it in the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith.

1:17 through 3:23: All are guilty - No one is righteous. It doesn't matter if one is egregiouslous sinful or religiously self righteous.
Verb tense: for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.

3:24 I think through chapter 4: The gospel, justification is free.

Romans 5: results of Justification
Romans 6: gospel defended. Shall I live in sin first half, shall I commit acts of sin second half
Romans 7: why do I still struggle with sin as a believer?
Romans 8: work of the Spirit
Romans 9-10 ish: What about the Jews?
Romans 11 - End How then shall we live?

Romans is a very sequential book and the first part is all about justification, the need for justification and the results of justification.

---

Quote:

---

Faith alone in Christ alone determines eternal life.
All believers and non-believers will be judged by their works, but not in reference to heaven and hell.

---

What do you understand Jesus to be saying in Matthew 25:25-42 when he says he will separate the sheep from the goats based on what they have or have not done and the goats will be sent to the eternal fire prepared for his devils and his angels?

FTACo88-FDT24dad said:

---

DirtDiver said:

---

Quote:

---

The problem is the assumption that there is such a thing as a moment of justification that is a point in time, forgiven for all time, and heaven is guaranteed.

---

The moment of faith...

Genesis 15:5 And He took him outside and said, "Now look toward the heavens, and count the stars, if you are able to count them." And He said to him, "So shall your descendants be." 6 Then he believed in the Lord; and He reckoned it to him as righteousness

John 7:38 He who believes in Me, as the Scripture said, 'From his innermost being will flow rivers of living water.'" 39 But this He spoke of the Spirit, whom those who believed in Him were to receive; for the Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.m as righteousness.

2 He said to them, "Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?" And they said to him, "No, we have not even heard whether there is a Holy Spirit."

Romans 5:1 Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,

Quote:

---

Christ says we will be justified or condemned by our words on the Day of Judgment.

---

This is a true statement. The question you must ask is justified in what sense?

Faith alone in Christ alone determines eternal life.
All believers and non-believers will be judged by their works, but not in reference to heaven and hell.

Quote:

---

The entire mechanistic approach of picking apart the work of salvation into some unknowable moment, separate from being made righteous, separate from appearing before the judgment seat of Christ, separate from union with God is wrong from the start.

---

It's a very knowable moment.

Do you or have you ever believed the following?
1. You are a sinner.
2. Jesus died for your sins.
3. Jesus rose from the dead.
and...
4. You have accepted this gift for yourself by faith.

You are not trusting in your denomination, baptism, religious commitment, faithful obedience, effort, knowledge, heritage, selfless giving, etc. These are all good things and will be rewarded for faithful obedience to Christ but save save no one.

Quote:

---

It isn't how the Apostles taught - the scriptures are not theological treatises, they're narrative and letters. People in the ancient world wrote treatises. If Romans were a theological treatise it would have been titled something like On Justification. St Paul was more than capable of writing such a thing. He did not, and we should not attempt to contort what he did write into that... or to construct our own version of On Justification and ascribe it to St Paul.

For example -- it is wrong to pluck a verse like Romans 4:5 out of context (which is a letter reconciling Jewish and non-Jewish Christians) and then burden the words he used like "work" with theological significance that wouldn't exist for centuries. If you read Romans in context, what he's saying is something more like - (beginning in Romans 3:27)

---

Romans in context (from Memory I may miss a few statements)
Intro Romans 1:1-16 Intro: Theme For I am not ashamed of the gospel for it is the power of God unto salvation to all who believe, for it in the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith.

1:17 through 3:23: All are guilty - No one is righteous. It doesn't matter if one is egregiouslous sinful or religiously self righteous.
Verb tense: for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.

3:24 I think through chapter 4: The gospel, justification is free.

Romans 5: results of Justification
Romans 6: gospel defended. Shall I live in sin first half, shall I commit acts of sin second half
Romans 7: why do I still struggle with sin as a believer?
Romans 8: work of the Spirit
Romans 9-10 ish: What about the Jews?
Romans 11 - End How then shall we live?

Romans is a very sequential book and the first part is all about justification, the need for justification and the results of justification.

---

Quote:

---

Faith alone in Christ alone determines eternal life.
All believers and non-believers will be judged by their works, but not in reference to heaven and hell.

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What do you understand Jesus to be saying in Matthew 25:25-42 when he says he will separate the sheep from the goats based on what they have or have not done and the goats will be sent to the eternal fire prepared for his devils and his angels?

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This is a great question and way to illustrate your point. However, to answer it, I believe He is saying the same thing you do only, at the core of it, it's not to works themselves that result in the salvation as if one could earn the salvation. Rather, it's that doing those things is evidence of a true Faith….a heart for God and full of His Spirit.

One can do the works and not even believe in Jesus, but that would result in being sorted with the goats.

Conversely, one CANNOT have true faith and NOT do those things.

So, to the OP's point, is it Faith alone. I say YES, but true faith is NEVER alone. The works are the evidence of it. That's why it is said Faith without works is dead. (Not real).

Also, the OP is plotting hairs on works. Yes, some effect is required dust to fulfill Romans 10:9-10, but it not a work in the sense of earning salvation. It's a result of true belief.

This seems like a lot of words to say that it's not faith alone.

Zobel said:

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This seems like a lot of words to say that it's not faith alone.

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Fair, but I think it boils down to one either Loves Jesus or doesn't. True faith is rooted in love for Him. And, one who does Love Jesus follows his commands….exhibits the fruit of the Spirit.

God is pretty clear that one cannot earn His gift of salvation (Ephesians 2:9 as an example). Yet when so many talk about this topic and stress the works, it sounds to many as if it can be earned or that salvation can become a wage owed by God.
I just think people should focus more on truly loving Jesus and when they look back, they will see they beared the fruit of the Spirit….they are part of His sheep flock.

I know you get this, Zobel. I just think many here may not have your faith and can misinterpret what is said in this debate. As you know, I'm not Catholic, but my wife is and I attend Mass every week and spend lots of time discussing faith with Catholics. I'm convinced that even or especially in the Catholic Church, many learn, though it's not really the Church's teaching, that as long as they just check all the boxes along the way, they are good.
I think many of them, (true in all denominations) will be shocked when they are sorted with the goats. This will be because in their assessment, they did all these things they were taught or told are works, but they didn't really know and love Jesus. An account of this is also in Matthew 7, and it's one of the scariest statements in the scriptures to me.

So in stead of works, why not talk about faith that yields fruit.

FTACo88-FDT24dad said:

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Quote:

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Conversely, one CANNOT have true faith and NOT do those things.

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This statement seems problematic in terms of free will. It's akin to the statement that someone who falls away from the faith was never really saved. I think it's worth pointing out that the goats in Jesus's parable seem to have been those who believed.

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I think the goats in this parable are not those who once believed, I think they are those who claimed they believed. There is a very important difference here. Remember, God examines the heart. Men can only examine the fruits or in the context of this discussion, works. So, I'm not surprised you take it as those who believed, But God can see they never really did, even if they did a few good works along they way.

It's like a man who always say he loves his wife, but cheats on here, abuses her in many ways etc. he claims he loves her, but he doesn't.

Catag94 said:

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Zobel said:

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This seems like a lot of words to say that it's not faith alone.

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Fair, but I think it boils down to one either Loves Jesus or doesn't. True faith is rooted in love for Him. And, one who does Love Jesus follows his commands….exhibits the fruit of the Spirit.

God is pretty clear that one cannot earn His gift of salvation (Ephesians 2:9 as an example). Yet when so many talk about this topic and stress the works, it sounds to many as if it can be earned or that salvation can become a wage owed by God.
I just think people should focus more on truly loving Jesus and when they look back, they will see they beared the fruit of the Spirit….they are part of His sheep flock.

I know you get this, Zobel. I just think many here may not have your faith and can misinterpret what is said in this debate. As you know, I'm not Catholic, but my wife is and I attend Mass every week and spend lots of time discussing faith with Catholics. I'm convinced that even or especially in the Catholic Church, many learn, though it's not really the Church's teaching, that as long as they just check all the boxes along the way, they are good.
I think many of them, (true in all denominations) will be shocked when they are sorted with the goats. This will be because in their assessment, they did all these things they were taught or told are works, but they didn't really know and love Jesus. An account of this is also in Matthew 7, and it's one of the scariest statements in the scriptures to me.

So in stead of works, why not talk about faith that yields fruit.

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There is no problem with talking about faith that produces fruit, but the OP is on the problem with the formula "faith alone". "Faith that yields fruit" is far more preferable than "faith alone". But the division amongst many denomination is based off of "alone" not "fruit"

The Banned said:

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Catag94 said:

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Zobel said:

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This seems like a lot of words to say that it's not faith alone.

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Fair, but I think it boils down to one either Loves Jesus or doesn't. True faith is rooted in love for Him. And, one who does Love Jesus follows his commands….exhibits the fruit of the Spirit.

God is pretty clear that one cannot earn His gift of salvation (Ephesians 2:9 as an example). Yet when so many talk about this topic and stress the works, it sounds to many as if it can be earned or that salvation can become a wage owed by God.
I just think people should focus more on truly loving Jesus and when they look back, they will see they beared the fruit of the Spirit….they are part of His sheep flock.

I know you get this, Zobel. I just think many here may not have your faith and can misinterpret what is said in this debate. As you know, I'm not Catholic, but my wife is and I attend Mass every week and spend lots of time discussing faith with Catholics. I'm convinced that even or especially in the Catholic Church, many learn, though it's not really the Church's teaching, that as long as they just check all the boxes along the way, they are good.
I think many of them, (true in all denominations) will be shocked when they are sorted with the goats. This will be because in their assessment, they did all these things they were taught or told are works, but they didn't really know and love Jesus. An account of this is also in Matthew 7, and it's one of the scariest statements in the scriptures to me.

So in stead of works, why not talk about faith that yields fruit.

---

There is no problem with talking about faith that produces fruit, but the OP is on the problem with the formula "faith alone". "Faith that yields fruit" is far more preferable than "faith alone". But the division amongst many denomination is based off of "alone" not "fruit"

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Faith Alone is about justification. The fruit yielded by that faith is within sanctification. So yes, the alone part of faith is how we are justified before God for our sin. The good works from that faith are how we are being made righteous. The alone is essential, so that no man can boast.

Pro Sandy said:

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The Banned said:

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Catag94 said:

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Zobel said:

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This seems like a lot of words to say that it's not faith alone.

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Fair, but I think it boils down to one either Loves Jesus or doesn't. True faith is rooted in love for Him. And, one who does Love Jesus follows his commands….exhibits the fruit of the Spirit.

God is pretty clear that one cannot earn His gift of salvation (Ephesians 2:9 as an example). Yet when so many talk about this topic and stress the works, it sounds to many as if it can be earned or that salvation can become a wage owed by God.
I just think people should focus more on truly loving Jesus and when they look back, they will see they beared the fruit of the Spirit….they are part of His sheep flock.

I know you get this, Zobel. I just think many here may not have your faith and can misinterpret what is said in this debate. As you know, I'm not Catholic, but my wife is and I attend Mass every week and spend lots of time discussing faith with Catholics. I'm convinced that even or especially in the Catholic Church, many learn, though it's not really the Church's teaching, that as long as they just check all the boxes along the way, they are good.
I think many of them, (true in all denominations) will be shocked when they are sorted with the goats. This will be because in their assessment, they did all these things they were taught or told are works, but they didn't really know and love Jesus. An account of this is also in Matthew 7, and it's one of the scariest statements in the scriptures to me.

So in stead of works, why not talk about faith that yields fruit.

---

There is no problem with talking about faith that produces fruit, but the OP is on the problem with the formula "faith alone". "Faith that yields fruit" is far more preferable than "faith alone". But the division amongst many denomination is based off of "alone" not "fruit"

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Faith Alone is about justification. The fruit yielded by that faith is within sanctification. So yes, the alone part of faith is how we are justified before God for our sin. The good works from that faith are how we are being made righteous. The alone is essential, so that no man can boast.

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It's hard keeping track of everyone on this thread, so I have to ask again, sorry: you do not believe you can lose your salvation?

The Banned said:

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do you believe you can leave the faith after believing?

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Absolutely.

As I see it now there are 2 options.

1. Did the person ever believe/trust in Jesus alone's work (death and resurrection) for the forgiveness of their sins or did they just believe the Jesus existed and maybe have considered themselves a Christian by their church attendance?

Not Saved because they have not trusted Jesus.

2. Assuming they have trusted Jesus and walked away....

...our unfaithfulness or walking away does not negate God's faithfulness to His promises.

• we can grieve the Spirit by our disobedience but not lose the Spirit
• we cannot lose the Spirit who seals us until the date of redemption
• we cannot un-declare ourselves as righteous when He has declared us righteous by faith in Jesus.
• we cannot undo our born again new creature nature.
• we cannot separate ourselves from the love of God
• we cannot undo our peace (not enemy status) with God.
• God will not withdraw eternal life
• God will not undo His promises
• we as a believer would not be an obedient child
• we may suffer loss depending on how far we wander.
• we could die prematurely due to sinful living and get taken home quicker
• we would bring shame to our Father

Quote:

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True faith is rooted in love for Him. And, one who does Love Jesus follows his commands….exhibits the fruit of the Spirit.

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Right. The biggest issues is a linguistic / translation one. Belief and faith don't have matching separate concepts in Greek. One thing that I've heard (from Fr Stephen de Young) that makes a ton of sense is translating "believe" as "faithfulness", since again there's no difference in the Greek. Once you break that and stop linking "faith" with "an opinion you consider true" or "fidelity toward a set of dogmatic statements" or whatever, and link it with... faithfulness... the OT and NT all make a lot more sense. For example - the only thing that matters is faithfulness working through love is a lot more conceptually coherent than either belief or faith there.

Quote:

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Yet when so many talk about this topic and stress the works, it sounds to many as if it can be earned or that salvation can become a wage owed by God.

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But again I ask - what denomination teaches this? I genuinely think literally no one.

As for Eph 2:9 - Fr Stephen de Young recently published a book called St Paul the Pharisee which is a biography of St Paul as well as a deliberately interpretive translation of his epistles. Here's how he translates that passage from Eph 2 with both lead-in and what comes after:

Quote:

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You were dead in your crimes and sins, in your old way of life in this age, in this world. You followed the authoritarian ruler of the air, the spirit that is still working through the sons of disobedience. All of us once lived to try to fulfill the sinful desires of our flesh, giving our sinful flesh what it wanted. We thought sinful thoughts. We were natural-born children of wrath, just like everyone else. But God, because he has so much mercy and such great love for us, even though we were dead in our sins, made us alive with the Messiah. Your salvation is a gift. He raised us up with the Messiah and seated us in the heavens with the Messiah Jesus. In the age to come, he will show us the great riches of his gift given to us in kindness in the Messiah Jesus. Your salvation is a gift, received through your faithfulness. It is not your own doing; God gives it as a gift. You didn't earn it, so no one has a reason to brag. We are his creation, created in the Messiah Jesus to do good works that God arranged for us in advance to do. This is how we now live.

Before, you were descended from the nations. You were called "uncircumcised" by those who have been circumcised by the hands of a man. At that time you were separated from the Messiah. You were a foreigner to the nation of Israel. You were a stranger to the covenants and the promises to Abraham. You had no hope, and you did not know God. But now, because of the Messiah Jesus, you who were far away have come near through the blood of the Messiah. He is our peace offering. He has made one people from Jews and non-Jews. He has broken down the wall that kept you a way from the temple. He has removed the hostility between us through his humanity. The commandments and ordinances of the Torah that kept you away from God have been annulled so that from both groups he could create one new humanity and establish peace. He has reconciled both groups in his one body to God through his death on the cross. With the cross, he killed our enemy. After he rose, he proclaimed the gospel: "Peace be to you." Peace be to those far off, and peace to those who are near. Through him, both groups have access by the one Spirit of God to the Father.

You are no longer strangers and aliens. Now you are fellow citizens with the holy ones and part of God's household. God's household is built on the foundation of the apostles and the prophets. The Messiah Jesus is the cornerstone. In him, the whole building is put together and is consecrated as a holy temple to the Lord. In the Messiah, you are being built into a dwelling place for God's spirit.

This is the gift that I, Paul, the prisoner for the Messiah Jesus, bring to the nations. You have heard of the position given to me by God, to bring his gift to you. He revealed to me the mystery, just as I have written to you before briefly. If you read it, you will understand my explanation of the mystery of the Messiah. This mystery was not known to humans in previous generations but has now been revealed to the holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit. The nations are coheirs and part of one body regarding the promises to Abraham in the Messiah Jesus through the gospel.

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Ok - but if we step back from centuries-later debates about the mechanisms of salvation, what is this passage actually saying? Is there actually anything here at all about a moment of salvation, if whether faith alone or faith and works? No, clearly not. Because he says - hey, you received salvation as a gift, and then goes on to talk about what that gift is. It has nothing to do with individual acts! The gift of salvation here described is being joined to Israel as one people, and therefore to God, or as St Paul says, "the mystery is that the Gentiles are fellow heirs, members of the same body, and partakers of the promise in Christ Jesus through the gospel." This entire passage is you plural - where "you" is "you people". The gentiles.

As St Paul usually does after the theological first half, he unpacks it in pastoral application in the second half. What is the first an immediate application of the idea that in Christ both non-Jews and Jews are heirs to the promises of Abraham? "I urge you to walk in a manner worthy of the calling to which you have been called." The entire conclusion of that is - you need to live your life in a certain way, because Christ Jesus broke down the barriers barring you from coming to Him. That breaking down of the barrier was the gift of salvation!

Quote:

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I think many of them, (true in all denominations) will be shocked when they are sorted with the goats. This will be because in their assessment, they did all these things they were taught or told are works, but they didn't really know and love Jesus.

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I think we spend entirely too much time thinking about others. I, myself, am much more concerned that I will be numbered among the goats because I know there are many good things I have left undone.

Quote:

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So in stead of works, why not talk about faith that yields fruit.

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I don't think anyone has a problem with that. I'd say it as - be faithful and yield fruit. Yes. The argument is not "pro-works" though, the argument is against "no works necessary" which is simply incorrect aside from being the wrong way to think about it.

So you can have faith while being unfaithful? Seems fundamentally contradictory.

DirtDiver said:

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The Banned said:

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do you believe you can leave the faith after believing?

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Absolutely.

As I see it now there are 2 options.

1. Did the person ever believe/trust in Jesus alone's work (death and resurrection) for the forgiveness of their sins or did they just believe the Jesus existed and maybe have considered themselves a Christian by their church attendance?

Not Saved because they have not trusted Jesus.

2. Assuming they have trusted Jesus and walked away....

...our unfaithfulness or walking away does not negate God's faithfulness to His promises.

• we can grieve the Spirit by our disobedience but not lose the Spirit
• we cannot lose the Spirit who seals us until the date of redemption
• we cannot un-declare ourselves as righteous when He has declared us righteous by faith in Jesus.
• we cannot undo our born again new creature nature.
• we cannot separate ourselves from the love of God
• we cannot undo our peace (not enemy status) with God.
• God will not withdraw eternal life
• God will not undo His promises
• we as a believer would not be an obedient child
• we may suffer loss depending on how far we wander.
• we could die prematurely due to sinful living and get taken home quicker
• we would bring shame to our Father

---

So cheap grace theology? Essentially doesn't matter what happens? We should do good, but if we fall away we're still saved?

If so, I still see this as a second logical end to "faith alone". It's only one of two options. Whether or not it is biblically based is a different discussion, but it is at least logical

Quote:

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yeah, except every time judgment is spoken of in the scriptures, this is the only criteria given about eternal life. Yes, even by St Paul (e.g., "He will render to each one according to his works: to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life...")

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Questions for reflection:

Who by patience in well-doing seeks for glory and honor and immortality?

Romans 3:9 What then? Are we better than they? Not at all; for we have already charged that both Jews and Greeks are all under sin; 10 as it is written,
"There is none righteous, not even one;
11 There is none who understands,
There is none who seeks for God;
12 All have turned aside, together they have become useless;
There is none who does good,
There is not even one."

Zobel, how do you know your sins are forgiven?

Quote:

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Romans is not about justification at all. Roman is about being Jewish and non-Jewish and how that pertains to salvation.

Which is my whole point about context. The book is not called On Justification. That is not a good title for it. That is not the focus of the book. It is called "A letter to the Romans" because it is a letter, written to a specific group of people at a specific time about a specific struggle. Every part of the book is comparing and contrasting Jewish and non-Jewish believers because the Jews had been expelled from Rome previously and were now returning, and there was contention between Jewish and non-Jewish Christians. That's why he addresses Jews and non-Jews and talks over and over again (even in the passage here) about how both relate to God in the Torah through faithfulness.

If you think Romans is about justification as an abstract concept, you've already missed the bus.

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I would say Romans is about:
1. The righteousness of God through faith in Jesus
2. It's also about All of the world being guilty: both Jews and Gentiles
3. Salvation for both Jews and Gentiles is faith in Jesus.
4. If salvation is so great, how do we understand it as it relates to the Jewish people? Romans 9-10

Word count: "justi"

• New Testament (42)
• Matthew (4)
• Luke (7)
• Acts (1)
• Romans (18)
• 1 Corinthians (1)
• Galatians (6)
• Colossians (1)
• Titus (1)
• James (3)

Romans is about God's salvation (justification in His eyes) from faith to faith. It's about understanding our need for it, how it free it is, the results of it, why we still struggle with sin, who the Spirit is and what He does in a believers life, how God has not forgotten the Jews, and how we should live and why after we accept the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus.

Zobel said:

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The "we" and "they" spoken of in Romans 3 is not "believers" and "non-believers". It is Jews and non-Jews. Because you've taken it out of context, you've completely missed the point St Paul is making, which is that being Jewish in and of itself doesn't make you righteous or pleasing to God, even if you follow the Torah.

I know my sins are forgiven because of the promises of the Messiah received through baptism, confession, and the Eucharist for the forgiveness of sins and for life everlasting.

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If you were never baptized (water I assume) would you have forgiveness?
If you had never participated in the Eucharist would you have forgiveness?

It's not. It's a letter written to a community struggling to reintegrate Jewish Christians with non-Jewish after the Jews were expelled from Rome for two years. The point of the letter is to avoid the creation of two separate communities, one for Jews and one for non-Jews. It's not a theological treatise, no matter how badly you want it to be. That's why for you the letter inexplicably ends after chapter 11, even though the first part to that point is all setup for the "therefore" which comes after 12. If you're going to pick one half to emphasize, it should be the latter half, not the former.

God forgives. These kind of hypotheticals are not beneficial. You see no such discussion by the apostles. We have instead a commandment - be faithful - and instructions on what that looks like - repent, be baptized, live your life in a way appropriate for your calling.

The Banned said:

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DirtDiver said:

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The Banned said:

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do you believe you can leave the faith after believing?

---

Absolutely.

As I see it now there are 2 options.

1. Did the person ever believe/trust in Jesus alone's work (death and resurrection) for the forgiveness of their sins or did they just believe the Jesus existed and maybe have considered themselves a Christian by their church attendance?

Not Saved because they have not trusted Jesus.

2. Assuming they have trusted Jesus and walked away....

...our unfaithfulness or walking away does not negate God's faithfulness to His promises.

• we can grieve the Spirit by our disobedience but not lose the Spirit
• we cannot lose the Spirit who seals us until the date of redemption
• we cannot un-declare ourselves as righteous when He has declared us righteous by faith in Jesus.
• we cannot undo our born again new creature nature.
• we cannot separate ourselves from the love of God
• we cannot undo our peace (not enemy status) with God.
• God will not withdraw eternal life
• God will not undo His promises
• we as a believer would not be an obedient child
• we may suffer loss depending on how far we wander.
• we could die prematurely due to sinful living and get taken home quicker
• we would bring shame to our Father

---

So cheap grace theology? Essentially doesn't matter what happens? We should do good, but if we fall away we're still saved?

If so, I still see this as a second logical end to "faith alone". It's only one of two options. Whether or not it is biblically based is a different discussion, but it is at least logical

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Quite the opposite: There's an exponential chasm between cheap grace and free grace.

Grace is not cheap because:
The event that offers us our salvation included the Father pouring out His full wrath for sin upon His Son Jesus for the first time in eternity.
Consider who Jesus is and what He gave up for our salvation.

Not cheap, more costly than all of the gold in the universe...
1 Peter 1:17 If you address as Father the One who impartially judges according to each one's work, conduct yourselves in fear during the time of your stay on earth; 18 knowing that you were not redeemed with perishable things like silver or gold from your futile way of life inherited from your forefathers, 19 but with precious blood, as of a lamb unblemished and spotless, the blood of Christ. 20 For He was foreknown before the foundation of the world, but has appeared in these last times for the sake of you 21 who through Him are believers in God, who raised Him from the dead and gave Him glory, so that your faith and hope are in God.

Quote:

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Essentially doesn't matter what happens? We should do good, but if we fall away we're still saved?

---

May it never be! Read Romans 6 for all of the reasons why.

While it's true that nothing a believer can do to give back the spirit, undo their 2nd birth, or undo their adoption, it's also true that it matters very much how we live.

Sin has shameful and negative consequences on us and doesn't reflect the one who purchased our freedom.

Consider these words and make observations
12 Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its lusts, 13 and do not go on presenting the members of your body to sin as instruments of unrighteousness; but present yourselves to God as those alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God. 14 For sin shall not be master over you, for you are not under law but under grace.

• it's possible to let sin reign in our bodies but not desired by God
• we should not present our bodies to sin
• we should present ourselves to God as what? those alive from the dead.
• we should do this because we are no under law but under Grace (a transition or transaction has taken place to move us from one category to the other).

I at one time wrestled with the doctrine of eternal security, 'cheap grace', free grace, once saved always saved for years. My struggle was often that I underestimated the sinfulness of all (believers and non-believers) and my view of the work of Jesus was too low.

It's not cheap because of who He is and what He's paid.
It's free because we could not afford to buy it or earn it.

Zobel said:

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God forgives. These kind of hypotheticals are not beneficial. You see no such discussion by the apostles. We have instead a commandment - be faithful - and instructions on what that looks like - repent, be baptized, live your life in a way appropriate for your calling.

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They are beneficial in that these questions help identify the object of ones faith. It answers that question, what about Jesus work isn't enough for your salvation?

No, it doesn't, because "enough" is a false premise. As is your definition of salvation.

No matter how hard you try, correctly identifying that faithfulness to the Messiah is both necessary for salvation and an ongoing action is not somehow robbing someone of faith in Christ.

Not one of the Apostles taught as you do, nor the church fathers through the centuries. The whole system you espouse is foreign to the faith passed on once for all to the saints.

Here's a better thing to consider. If we are commanded to repent, be baptized, be faithful to Christ Jesus, and walk in imitation of Him and His apostles and prophets and our fathers in the faith… why do you want to find out just how disobedient you can be and still be saved?

DirtDiver said:

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The Banned said:

---

DirtDiver said:

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The Banned said:

---

do you believe you can leave the faith after believing?

---

Absolutely.

As I see it now there are 2 options.

1. Did the person ever believe/trust in Jesus alone's work (death and resurrection) for the forgiveness of their sins or did they just believe the Jesus existed and maybe have considered themselves a Christian by their church attendance?

Not Saved because they have not trusted Jesus.

2. Assuming they have trusted Jesus and walked away....

...our unfaithfulness or walking away does not negate God's faithfulness to His promises.

• we can grieve the Spirit by our disobedience but not lose the Spirit
• we cannot lose the Spirit who seals us until the date of redemption
• we cannot un-declare ourselves as righteous when He has declared us righteous by faith in Jesus.
• we cannot undo our born again new creature nature.
• we cannot separate ourselves from the love of God
• we cannot undo our peace (not enemy status) with God.
• God will not withdraw eternal life
• God will not undo His promises
• we as a believer would not be an obedient child
• we may suffer loss depending on how far we wander.
• we could die prematurely due to sinful living and get taken home quicker
• we would bring shame to our Father

---

So cheap grace theology? Essentially doesn't matter what happens? We should do good, but if we fall away we're still saved?

If so, I still see this as a second logical end to "faith alone". It's only one of two options. Whether or not it is biblically based is a different discussion, but it is at least logical

---

Quite the opposite: There's an exponential chasm between cheap grace and free grace.

Grace is not cheap because:
The event that offers us our salvation included the Father pouring out His full wrath for sin upon His Son Jesus for the first time in eternity.
Consider who Jesus is and what He gave up for our salvation.

Not cheap, more costly than all of the gold in the universe...
1 Peter 1:17 If you address as Father the One who impartially judges according to each one's work, conduct yourselves in fear during the time of your stay on earth; 18 knowing that you were not redeemed with perishable things like silver or gold from your futile way of life inherited from your forefathers, 19 but with precious blood, as of a lamb unblemished and spotless, the blood of Christ. 20 For He was foreknown before the foundation of the world, but has appeared in these last times for the sake of you 21 who through Him are believers in God, who raised Him from the dead and gave Him glory, so that your faith and hope are in God.

Quote:

---

Essentially doesn't matter what happens? We should do good, but if we fall away we're still saved?

---

May it never be! Read Romans 6 for all of the reasons why.

While it's true that nothing a believer can do to give back the spirit, undo their 2nd birth, or undo their adoption, it's also true that it matters very much how we live.

Sin has shameful and negative consequences on us and doesn't reflect the one who purchased our freedom.

Consider these words and make observations
12 Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its lusts, 13 and do not go on presenting the members of your body to sin as instruments of unrighteousness; but present yourselves to God as those alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God. 14 For sin shall not be master over you, for you are not under law but under grace.

• it's possible to let sin reign in our bodies but not desired by God
• we should not present our bodies to sin
• we should present ourselves to God as what? those alive from the dead.
• we should do this because we are no under law but under Grace (a transition or transaction has taken place to move us from one category to the other).

I at one time wrestled with the doctrine of eternal security, 'cheap grace', free grace, once saved always saved for years. My struggle was often that I underestimated the sinfulness of all (believers and non-believers) and my view of the work of Jesus was too low.

It's not cheap because of who He is and what He's paid.
It's free because we could not afford to buy it or earn it.

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This was hard to follow, but sounds like "free grace" does mean that we can fall away and still be saved?

How are we defining "falling away?"

I've enjoyed reading this debate, it feels like we are splitting hairs on the what exactly faith is. I love this sermon nugget from Alistair Begg about the thief in the cross.

which, again, is why I think this discussion should be rooted in evangelical and pastoral value. to wit: if everything looks the same for a follower of Christ as they live out their life as directed in the scriptures, why separate based on some condition knowable only to Jesus that won't be made apparent until the judgment?

Zobel said:

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No, it doesn't, because "enough" is a false premise. As is your definition of salvation.

No matter how hard you try, correctly identifying that faithfulness to the Messiah is both necessary for salvation and an ongoing action is not somehow robbing someone of faith in Christ.

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I disagree for the following reasons.

If I say salvation is Christ plus baptism in water is required for my salvation and that if I'm not baptized in water I'm not saved, then I'm left alone with faith in Christ with is not enough for salvation.

If I say salvation is Christ plus my obedience is required for my salvation and that if I'm not perfectly obedience I'm not saved, then I'm left alone with faith in Christ with is not enough for salvation.

If I say salvation is Christ plus circumcision is required for my salvation and that if I'm not circumcised I'm not saved, then I'm left alone with faith in Christ with is not enough for salvation.

If I say salvation is Christ plus participating in communion is required for my salvation and that if I do not take communion I'm not saved, then I'm left alone with faith in Christ with is not enough for salvation.

My entire premise is that Jesus did all of the work for my salvation and nothing I can do adds to it. His work is completely sufficient to save. I can trust in Him or I can trust in myself. I cannot do both. Once I trust Him, I should follow Him in obedience motivated by love not for the purpose of earning my salvation or adding to His work.

Jesus and what He did is enough to save.

Quote:

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Not one of the Apostles taught as you do, nor the church fathers through the centuries. The whole system you espouse is foreign to the faith passed on once for all to the saints.

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Actually people have been trying to add requirements to the finished work of Jesus/God since the law was written (and probably before). This is seen in the books of Galatians (circumcision), works (Romans, Titus, Ephesians), the gospels.

Quote:

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Here's a better thing to consider. If we are commanded to repent, be baptized, be faithful to Christ Jesus, and walk in imitation of Him and His apostles and prophets and our fathers in the faith… why do you want to find out just how disobedient you can be and still be saved?

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Yes, we are commanded to repent, be baptized, be faithful, not look at women in lust, love our enemies, share the gospel with all nations, love our wives as Christ loved the church, respect our husbands, be perfect as God is perfect, honor the kind, love God with all of our heart, sole, mind and strength, walk by the Spirit, love our neighbors as our selves, do all of our work motivated by His glory, not be given to much wine, and about 1000 other commands in the NT....

AND not one of these for the purpose of earning God's favor or entering a relationship with God.

We are commanded to believe first, be born again, and then with the resources of the indwelling Spirit walk with Him in obedience and faithfulness.

God gave us an entire book that shows us how disobedient people can be and still be saved and he's not promoting loose living. (1 Corinthians) Neither am I.