Post-initial grace of justification, faith and good works are two sides of the same coin. Faith is not merely a state of mind. Faith, as used by St. Paul, is faith working by, through and under love.
Faith alone
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Last: 3 days ago by Zobel
Yes, provided that we maintain that those good works flow from and through faithfulness to the Messiah. Anything - good works or keeping the Torah - apart from the Messiah will not save you. Christ alone saves.Quote:
Is it all the same thing? Can I substitute anywhere I see "faith" with "good works"?
Where did I say anything about being saved by our merit?Quote:
I fail to see how there could be any confusion. He is even so bold to see that this is explained plainly not for the part of Jews, but for OUR part. Those redeemed and in the fellowship of Christ.
Not from works, not from you, not by your merit...
We don't show up and say hey God, I did all these good works and cash them in like chuck-e-cheese tickets.
We have no claim on salvation because of anything we do. We merit nothing, even if we lived perfectly moral lives we would not merit salvation, and God would not have any kind of obligation toward us because of it. All we can say is that "we are unworthy servants, we have only done our duty."
We are saved solely by grace from one end of it to the other. God began His work of salvation before we were born, endured the cross alone, defeated death alone, and offered it to us while we were his enemies. And now He extends grace after we have been reconciled to Him unilaterally - apart from Him we can do nothing.
But the mechanism of that grace - how it works - is through and with our own faithfulness. The first part is true -"by grace you are saved" but so is the second - "through faith." We are unworthy servants, who have only done our duty, but that does not mean we do not have to do our duty! Jesus teaches this in the parables over and over. If we do not do our duty, we are faithless, and we squander the grace offered to us.
Even more importantly, the good works we do through God are not ours. The works we do of faithfulness are the works of the body of Christ. The same way your spirit animates your body and you control your body to do things in the world, the Spirit of God animates the Body of Christ and accomplishes things in the world. When we co-operate with the Spirit we do the works of God, and they are His works, which is why they are truly Good. That is grace both to us and to the world - to the world because of the love and physical act, to us because that grace and mercy are transformative in our lives. It makes us become like God.
Everything you just said basically aligns with sola fide.
except for the alone / sola part...
The Lutherans wrote to the Patriarch of Constantinople in the 1500s. They offered the Augsburg Confession, and the Patriarch wrote back to them. Here's an excerpt, emphasis mine.
It is necessary to join our good works together with the mercy from above. If we excuse ourselves because of our weakness or the goodness of God and do not add something of our own, there will be no benefit to us. How can we invoke mercy for the cure of our iniquities if it, no way have we done anything to appease the Divine One? Let us hear how [St John] Chrysostom explained [the words of] Psalm 129, "Out of the depths I cry to thee, O Lord. Lord, hear my voice" [1-2]:
'From this we learn two things: that one cannot simply expect something from God if nothing from us is forthcoming,' because first it says, 'I cry,' and then follows, 'hear my voice.' Furthermore, lengthy prayer, full of tears, has more power to convince God to hearken to that which has been asked. But so no one may say that, since he is a sinner and full of thousands of evils, 'I cannot come before and pray, and call upon God, 'He takes away all doubt by saying: 'If thou, O Lord, should mark iniquities, Lord, who could stand?' [Ps 129:3]. Here the word 'who' should be replaced by the word 'no one,' because there is no one, no one who, according to a strict account of his works, could ever attain mercy and benevolence. If you withdraw mercy and God justly imposes the penalty of the sentence and metes out punishments for sins, who will be able to bear the judgment? Of necessity all would have to submit to destruction. And we say these things not to draw down souls into carelessness, but rather to console those who have fallen into despair. Because who can boast that he has a pure heart? Or who can proclaim that he is free from sins? And what can I say of others? For if I bring Saint Paul into our midst and wish to ask of him to give an accurate account of what happened [in his case], he cannot hold his ground. For what can he say? He read the Prophets. He was a zealot with regard to the strictness of the law of the forefathers. He saw signs. Nevertheless, he had not yet ascended to that awesome sight which he enjoyed, nor had he heard that awesome voice. Before that he was, in all things, confused.
....
Let us become cleansed as far as our minds can comprehend and as much as we are capable of becoming. How can this be done? "Wash yourselves; make yourselves clean; remove your evils from your souls before my eyes" [Is 1:16]. He says: "Do not become like whitewashed tombs" [Mt 23:27], appearing to be guiltless; but, thus, remove [evils from your souls] as being seen by God. "Though your sins are like purple, I will make them white as snow" [Is 1:18]. Do you not see that we have to clean ourselves first, and then God will make us white as snow? For this reason no one, not even those who sink down to the lowest evil, should despair. Even if it becomes a habit for someone and he has almost arrived to the nature of evil in itself, let him not be afraid. For even colors which do not fade and have almost become one with the material, nevertheless, are transformed into the opposite condition and become white as snow. Thus, He grants us good hope. Let us seriously try as much as we can to become clean.
Let us pursue good works. Let us not seek the speck that is in the eye of another, but let us see the log that is in our own [cf. Mt 7:3]. And, thus, with the grace of God, we shall be able to attain worthily the good things to come. Therefore, the power of works is great; and even when they commit sins, God cleanses them through repentance. One should not boast of them nor depend on them, for that would be sinful; but as much as you are able, fulfill the works which are the result of faith and are necessary. For if those who have cast out demons and who have prophesied are rejected, and have not lived a comparable life, how much more [shall we be rejected] if we are negligent and do not fulfill the commandments? Christ will say to such persons: "I never knew you" [Mt 7:23; cf. Lk 13:27].
We believe correctly to glorify Him and we live the good life to glorify Him, for there is no benefit of one without the other. And furthermore, when, perchance, we praise Him rightly but do not live properly according to the commandment, then we greatly insult Him. And although we give Him the title of Master and Teacher, we, nevertheless, scorn Him and do not fear His awesome judgment. The fact that the pagan Greeks lived an impure life is no surprise, nor are they deserving of such great condemnation. However, being Christians, who participate in so many sacraments, [and] who enjoy such glory yet live impurely is much worse and intolerable and beyond all compassion.
If, as the saying goes, we were to look earnestly toward the great and infinite compassion of God and His extraordinarily great gifts, and imagine that we will be saved by grace alone in the manner of the ingrates, we cannot hope to benefit. And besides, our own deeds, even if they may approach perfection, are nothing in comparison, except that they are supplementary and demonstrate our disposition--namely, that we are thankful, that we obey the commandments and perform good and virtuous deeds so that we may not be placed into paradise like insensible creatures, which absolutely is not done but, by our preference, through the grace of God. If we prefer to incline toward sin, we shall appear insensible as paying attention to non-existing things. Indeed, we must avoid it [sin] and detest it since it places us far away from God. And when we intend to commit a sin, then we must conjecture and imagine the dread and intolerable court of Christ in which the judge is sitting on a high and elevated throne to judge those who have lived. All creation is present and trembling at His glorious appearance.
The sixth [article] gives the assurance that it is necessary to do good works but not to be dependent on them according to the passage: "Enter not into judgment with thy servant" [Ps 143:2]. With regard to this we say that faith precedes, and then the works follow and are necessary according to the commandment of God. The one who fulfills them, as he must, receives reward and honor in everlasting life. Indeed, good works are not separate from, but necessary for, true faith. One should not trust in works nor be boastful in a Pharisaic manner. And even if we have fulfilled everything, according to the word of the Lord, "we are unworthy servants" [Lk 17:10]. All things should be referred to the righteousness of God because those things which have been offered by us are small or nothing at all. According to Chrysostom, it has been established that God does not lead those of us who are idle into His kingdom. The Lord "opposes the proud, but he gives grace to the humble" [1 Pet 5:5; see Jas 4:6; Pr 3:24]. One should not boast about works. But to do and fulfill them is most necessary. For without divine works it is impossible to be saved. If, then, we will be convinced by the Lord who says, "If you know these things, blessed are you if you do them" [Jn 13:17], it shall be to our benefit.Quote:
... The same also do the ancient writers of the Church teach; for Ambrose saith: 'This is ordained of God, that he that believeth in Christ shall be saved, without works, by faith alone, freely receiving remission of sins." --Article VI of the Augsburg Confession
It is necessary to join our good works together with the mercy from above. If we excuse ourselves because of our weakness or the goodness of God and do not add something of our own, there will be no benefit to us. How can we invoke mercy for the cure of our iniquities if it, no way have we done anything to appease the Divine One? Let us hear how [St John] Chrysostom explained [the words of] Psalm 129, "Out of the depths I cry to thee, O Lord. Lord, hear my voice" [1-2]:
'From this we learn two things: that one cannot simply expect something from God if nothing from us is forthcoming,' because first it says, 'I cry,' and then follows, 'hear my voice.' Furthermore, lengthy prayer, full of tears, has more power to convince God to hearken to that which has been asked. But so no one may say that, since he is a sinner and full of thousands of evils, 'I cannot come before and pray, and call upon God, 'He takes away all doubt by saying: 'If thou, O Lord, should mark iniquities, Lord, who could stand?' [Ps 129:3]. Here the word 'who' should be replaced by the word 'no one,' because there is no one, no one who, according to a strict account of his works, could ever attain mercy and benevolence. If you withdraw mercy and God justly imposes the penalty of the sentence and metes out punishments for sins, who will be able to bear the judgment? Of necessity all would have to submit to destruction. And we say these things not to draw down souls into carelessness, but rather to console those who have fallen into despair. Because who can boast that he has a pure heart? Or who can proclaim that he is free from sins? And what can I say of others? For if I bring Saint Paul into our midst and wish to ask of him to give an accurate account of what happened [in his case], he cannot hold his ground. For what can he say? He read the Prophets. He was a zealot with regard to the strictness of the law of the forefathers. He saw signs. Nevertheless, he had not yet ascended to that awesome sight which he enjoyed, nor had he heard that awesome voice. Before that he was, in all things, confused.
....
Let us become cleansed as far as our minds can comprehend and as much as we are capable of becoming. How can this be done? "Wash yourselves; make yourselves clean; remove your evils from your souls before my eyes" [Is 1:16]. He says: "Do not become like whitewashed tombs" [Mt 23:27], appearing to be guiltless; but, thus, remove [evils from your souls] as being seen by God. "Though your sins are like purple, I will make them white as snow" [Is 1:18]. Do you not see that we have to clean ourselves first, and then God will make us white as snow? For this reason no one, not even those who sink down to the lowest evil, should despair. Even if it becomes a habit for someone and he has almost arrived to the nature of evil in itself, let him not be afraid. For even colors which do not fade and have almost become one with the material, nevertheless, are transformed into the opposite condition and become white as snow. Thus, He grants us good hope. Let us seriously try as much as we can to become clean.
Let us pursue good works. Let us not seek the speck that is in the eye of another, but let us see the log that is in our own [cf. Mt 7:3]. And, thus, with the grace of God, we shall be able to attain worthily the good things to come. Therefore, the power of works is great; and even when they commit sins, God cleanses them through repentance. One should not boast of them nor depend on them, for that would be sinful; but as much as you are able, fulfill the works which are the result of faith and are necessary. For if those who have cast out demons and who have prophesied are rejected, and have not lived a comparable life, how much more [shall we be rejected] if we are negligent and do not fulfill the commandments? Christ will say to such persons: "I never knew you" [Mt 7:23; cf. Lk 13:27].
We believe correctly to glorify Him and we live the good life to glorify Him, for there is no benefit of one without the other. And furthermore, when, perchance, we praise Him rightly but do not live properly according to the commandment, then we greatly insult Him. And although we give Him the title of Master and Teacher, we, nevertheless, scorn Him and do not fear His awesome judgment. The fact that the pagan Greeks lived an impure life is no surprise, nor are they deserving of such great condemnation. However, being Christians, who participate in so many sacraments, [and] who enjoy such glory yet live impurely is much worse and intolerable and beyond all compassion.
If, as the saying goes, we were to look earnestly toward the great and infinite compassion of God and His extraordinarily great gifts, and imagine that we will be saved by grace alone in the manner of the ingrates, we cannot hope to benefit. And besides, our own deeds, even if they may approach perfection, are nothing in comparison, except that they are supplementary and demonstrate our disposition--namely, that we are thankful, that we obey the commandments and perform good and virtuous deeds so that we may not be placed into paradise like insensible creatures, which absolutely is not done but, by our preference, through the grace of God. If we prefer to incline toward sin, we shall appear insensible as paying attention to non-existing things. Indeed, we must avoid it [sin] and detest it since it places us far away from God. And when we intend to commit a sin, then we must conjecture and imagine the dread and intolerable court of Christ in which the judge is sitting on a high and elevated throne to judge those who have lived. All creation is present and trembling at His glorious appearance.
Yes, works as a result of faith.Zobel said:
Let us pursue good works. Let us not seek the speck that is in the eye of another, but let us see the log that is in our own [cf. Mt 7:3]. And, thus, with the grace of God, we shall be able to attain worthily the good things to come. Therefore, the power of works is great; and even when they commit sins, God cleanses them through repentance. One should not boast of them nor depend on them, for that would be sinful; but as much as you are able, fulfill the works which are the result of faith and are necessary.
So, is the faith saving/justifying you? Or the works that are fulfilled saving/justifying you? How many works are needed? How do you know?
The problem is the framing. You're asking for an either or and the answer is yes.
Faithfulness to the Messiah is what saves you. This is a relationship, master to servant, king to subject. Be a faithful servant, a loyal and faithful subject.
It's also husband to bride. Does it make sense to ask these questions about marriage? If someone says, "Be faithful to your wife," do you say that declaring you are faithful is being faithful? Is your faithfulness complete at your wedding altar? Do you ask if your faithfulness is based on works? Or ask how much you have to do to be faithful?
Of course not, because none of that makes any sense.
So yes, the faith - which is your being faithful - justifies you, makes you pleasing to God. Your faithfulness is comprised of what you do, which also makes you pleasing to God. And doing those good things through faith working with God makes you righteous, makes you pleasing to God - even more, it makes you holy and changes you by God working in you as you work and He works through you, which makes you more and more pleasing to God. That is what salvation is.
Faithfulness to the Messiah is what saves you. This is a relationship, master to servant, king to subject. Be a faithful servant, a loyal and faithful subject.
It's also husband to bride. Does it make sense to ask these questions about marriage? If someone says, "Be faithful to your wife," do you say that declaring you are faithful is being faithful? Is your faithfulness complete at your wedding altar? Do you ask if your faithfulness is based on works? Or ask how much you have to do to be faithful?
Of course not, because none of that makes any sense.
So yes, the faith - which is your being faithful - justifies you, makes you pleasing to God. Your faithfulness is comprised of what you do, which also makes you pleasing to God. And doing those good things through faith working with God makes you righteous, makes you pleasing to God - even more, it makes you holy and changes you by God working in you as you work and He works through you, which makes you more and more pleasing to God. That is what salvation is.
This is good stuff.Zobel said:
The problem is the framing. You're asking for an either or and the answer is yes.
Faithfulness to the Messiah is what saves you. This is a relationship, master to servant, king to subject. Be a faithful servant, a loyal and faithful subject.
It's also husband to bride. Does it make sense to ask these questions about marriage? If someone says, "Be faithful to your wife," do you say that declaring you are faithful is being faithful? Is your faithfulness complete at your wedding altar? Do you ask if your faithfulness is based on works? Or ask how much you have to do to be faithful?
Of course not, because none of that makes any sense.
So yes, the faith - which is your being faithful - justifies you, makes you pleasing to God. Your faithfulness is comprised of what you do, which also makes you pleasing to God. And doing those good things through faith working with God makes you righteous, makes you pleasing to God - even more, it makes you holy and changes you by God working in you as you work and He works through you, which makes you more and more pleasing to God. That is what salvation is.
It reminds me of the overarching theme of covenant and "marriage" that runs through the OT and the NT. God wants to marry his people Israel. In the new covenant, Jesus is the groom and the church is his bride. Our "marriage" to our groom is through our membership in his church. And as you describe above, our faithfulness to our wedding vows is demonstrated not merely by reciting the vows once, but by living them out, day to day, week to week, month to month. We embrace (cooperate with) the love (grace) our groom gives us and in doing so love him as he loves us.
I think I am just asking about which comes first. Or in other words, can you distinguish the sinner's justification and their sanctification (faithfulness). Or is it basically all one lifelong process.Zobel said:
The problem is the framing. You're asking for an either or and the answer is yes.
And again, if it is all one process, how do you know you have enough faithful works?
God's grace comes first, because He died for us while we were sinners.
Justification is not a moment in time thing though, again this is a problem of framing. Being justified is being found righteous, being pleasing to God. This is by being faithful. If you are faithful, you are pleasing. If you are not, you will not be. If you reject God, you are not faithful. If Abraham had changed his mind and gone back to Ur, he would not have been pleasing to God.
There's no "enough". It's not chuck-e-cheese. That's merit talking again.
Justification is not a moment in time thing though, again this is a problem of framing. Being justified is being found righteous, being pleasing to God. This is by being faithful. If you are faithful, you are pleasing. If you are not, you will not be. If you reject God, you are not faithful. If Abraham had changed his mind and gone back to Ur, he would not have been pleasing to God.
There's no "enough". It's not chuck-e-cheese. That's merit talking again.
"God prefigured and foretold that man would be justified from faith. Therefore, just as it was reckoned as righteousness to Abraham because he had faith, so we too, if we have faith in Christ and every mystery of his, will be sons of Abraham. Our whole life will be accounted as righteous."
-Marinus Victorinus, Ep. Gal 1 (on Gal. 3.7)
"Reckoned" and "accounted" are very forensic terms when it comes to one's justification
Our "whole life"? Is he getting the cart ahead of the horse?
-Marinus Victorinus, Ep. Gal 1 (on Gal. 3.7)
"Reckoned" and "accounted" are very forensic terms when it comes to one's justification
Our "whole life"? Is he getting the cart ahead of the horse?
It was reckoned as righteousness to Abraham because he DID something.10andBOUNCE said:
"God prefigured and foretold that man would be justified from faith. Therefore, just as it was reckoned as righteousness to Abraham because he had faith, so we too, if we have faith in Christ and every mystery of his, will be sons of Abraham. Our whole life will be accounted as righteous."
-Marinus Victorinus, Ep. Gal 1 (on Gal. 3.7)
"Reckoned" and "accounted" are very forensic terms when it comes to one's justification
Our "whole life"? Is he getting the cart ahead of the horse?
Yes, he believed. That's it.
He got up and moved from the land that he knew and went to another place at God's prompting. That was the beginning.10andBOUNCE said:
Yes, he believed. That's it.
Genesis 15:5-6
And he brought him outside and said, "Look toward heaven, and number the stars, if you are able to number them." Then he said to him, "So shall your offspring be." And he believed the Lord, and he counted it to him as righteousness.
I am not saying Abraham wasn't faithful in his life, but his righteousness was a one time "counting" at the time of his belief. Marinus is using the same forensic type of language to get the point across.
And he brought him outside and said, "Look toward heaven, and number the stars, if you are able to number them." Then he said to him, "So shall your offspring be." And he believed the Lord, and he counted it to him as righteousness.
I am not saying Abraham wasn't faithful in his life, but his righteousness was a one time "counting" at the time of his belief. Marinus is using the same forensic type of language to get the point across.
10andBOUNCE said:
Genesis 15:5-6
And he brought him outside and said, "Look toward heaven, and number the stars, if you are able to number them." Then he said to him, "So shall your offspring be." And he believed the Lord, and he counted it to him as righteousness.
I am not saying Abraham wasn't faithful in his life, but his righteousness was a one time "counting" at the time of his belief. Marinus is using the same forensic type of language to get the point across.
How do you get "one time" out of those passages? This is like Luther inserting "alone" in the words of St Paul. It's not there and there's nothing about the context of the story or literal words that necessitate understanding it as a "one time" occurrence. You have read that into the text.
I think it's called eisegesis, the practice of interpreting text according to one's preconceived ideas rather than according to the context of the text in question.
It says if we have faith, we will become sons of Abraham. Which means if we do not have faith, we will not become sons of Abraham.10andBOUNCE said:
"God prefigured and foretold that man would be justified from faith. Therefore, just as it was reckoned as righteousness to Abraham because he had faith, so we too, if we have faith in Christ and every mystery of his, will be sons of Abraham. Our whole life will be accounted as righteous."
-Marinus Victorinus, Ep. Gal 1 (on Gal. 3.7)
"Reckoned" and "accounted" are very forensic terms when it comes to one's justification
Our "whole life"? Is he getting the cart ahead of the horse?
When will our whole life be accounted as righteous? You assume now. I say at the judgment.
You are reading a one-time aspect into this that is not there.
Let's start by reading what Marinus Victorinus himself says.
Quote:
The main point of the letter is this: the Galatians are going astray, because they are linking the gospel of faith, which is a faith in Christ, to Judaism. On account of their corporeal understanding, they observe the sabbath and circumcision, likewise other works they picked up from the Law. Upset by these things, Paul wrote the letter wanting to correct them, and to summon them back from Judaism in order to keep faith in Christ alone, and to have the hope of salvation from Christ, the hope of his promises. For noone is saved based on the works of the Law....So with the authority established (that he received from God the gospel by our Lord Jesus Christ), Paul adds on its very precepts--that is, there is to be no addition of the corporeal understanding characteristic of Judaism. He also relates how he proved the point earlier and acted upon that basis, taking action against even Peter. He follows this up, asserting that there is one gospel, which he taught; those who add the precepts and observation of Judaism go far astray.
Zobel, I agree with this. It got me thinking about the admonition of not judging lest we be judged and how most of us read that admonition as warning against sitting in judgment of someone else's bad acts. But, might we also understand the admonition in a broader context as a warning against judging ourselves as righteous before God (presumption)? Or am I extending Jesus's admonition too far?Quote:
When will our whole life be accounted as righteous? You assume now. I say at the judgment.
Would you say that the works of the law are not equivalent to our good works we pursue?
Is the letter to the Galatians not also applicable to us in your mind? Even though we are not converted Jews and do not pursue works of the Torah in our Christian faith, we still often pursue other works in an attempt to become righteous. Is that a completely different thing?
I am just making sure I understand the perspective you are taking when talking about works of the law and good works and it is presented in scripture.
Is the letter to the Galatians not also applicable to us in your mind? Even though we are not converted Jews and do not pursue works of the Torah in our Christian faith, we still often pursue other works in an attempt to become righteous. Is that a completely different thing?
I am just making sure I understand the perspective you are taking when talking about works of the law and good works and it is presented in scripture.
I think the distinction to be made is found in your words here. If we pursue other works or any works "in an attempt to become righteous" instead of doing good for the sake of doing good or simply because it is the right thing to do, then the merit of our "works" in God's eyes is less or negated. It's what's in our hearts that matters and our hearts can only move us to do truly good things if God's love has been poured into our hearts through the Holy Spirit who has been given to us (Romans 5:5)Quote:
Even though we are not converted Jews and do not pursue works of the Torah in our Christian faith, we still often pursue other works in an attempt to become righteous. Is that a completely different thing?
Doing good is its own reward.
No. The works of the Torah are about being Jewish, they are what make you Jewish. Every time you see "works of the Torah" that is identical to "being Jewish".10andBOUNCE said:
Would you say that the works of the law are not equivalent to our good works we pursue?
It is applicable to us. The reason we are not to pursue works of the Torah is that we are not Judaeans and becoming Judaean does not save you. So, if you are trying to be saved by following the Torah, you are trying to be saved by being Jewish. That does not work.Quote:
Is the letter to the Galatians not also applicable to us in your mind? Even though we are not converted Jews and do not pursue works of the Torah in our Christian faith, we still often pursue other works in an attempt to become righteous. Is that a completely different thing?
We are saved by a righteousness apart from the Torah, which comes through faithfulness to Jesus Christ for all who have faith.
We should not pursue other works apart from Jesus Christ, because that will not save us. The only works that are good are the works of God.
But pursuing the works of God, which are righteous, DO make us righteous, they DO make us pleasing to God. Because pursuing the works of God is what makes us faithful. Doing the works of God in us, cooperating with Him, is truly righteous, and truly faithful, and truly saves.
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