Faith alone

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The Banned
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" If I say salvation is Christ plus my obedience is required for my salvation and that if I'm not perfectly obedience I'm not saved, then I'm left alone with faith in Christ with is not enough for salvation."

Not a perfect response as I have little time, but I think this can be summarized by saying faith =obedience and obedience=faith. I believe your conclusion to be a logical end to what "faith alone" must be. The next step is how these beliefs align with the Bible and historical teaching, but I'll save that for another thread.
Zobel
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Salvation is not a math equation. It is grace and a gift.
Quote:

My entire premise is that Jesus did all of the work for my salvation and nothing I can do adds to it. His work is completely sufficient to save. I can trust in Him or I can trust in myself. I cannot do both. Once I trust Him, I should follow Him in obedience motivated by love not for the purpose of earning my salvation or adding to His work.
Again, literally no one is saying anything about earning salvation through works separate from Christ Jesus. And, likewise, no one is saying that we accomplish or complete the redemptive work of Christ Jesus.

The scriptures say to take hold of your eternal life, to work out your salvation, and that even we fill up what is lacking in ourselves in Christ's afflictions, because we are saved, we are being saved, and we will be saved. It literally uses past, present, future tense. Pushing salvation into a single moment is flatly unscriptural. The whole question you propose here is a false dichotomy, that working in love is fundamentally unfaithful to Christ Jesus. It isn't true, it is nonsense, and it contradicts the scripture in so many places.
Quote:

Actually people have been trying to add requirements to the finished work of Jesus/God since the law was written (and probably before). This is seen in the books of Galatians (circumcision), works (Romans, Titus, Ephesians), the gospels.
Wrong. Just abjectly, completely wrong. The question of works in all of these cases is not about salvation per se, it is about unity to God through Israel and how that works. It is completely incorrect to read "works" and think "good deeds" in these. These are about works of the Torah, which is everywhere and always about being Jewish, begin a Judaean. Always the question is about - if He is the God of Israel and the Jewish Messiah (and He is) then how do those of the other nations relate to Him? Do they become Jewish, as one reading of the Torah suggests (i.e., to take the Passover you must become Jewish) and therefore do you need to be Jewish to be saved? And the answer is no - you don't need to become Jewish, you become a faithful non-circumcised person, like Abraham was before he was circumcised, before the Torah was given. Therefore faithfulness is not contingent upon following the Torah, that is, being Jewish. And, that this is in fact how it has always worked - that there have always been people who were faithful outside of being a part of Israel, and that merely keeping the Torah (i.e., being Jewish even in a faithful, external way) did not make you faithful to God.

This is why when St Paul writes the verse - "the only thing that matters is faithfulness working through love" it is not preceded by "doing good works or not" but "neither circumcision nor uncircumcision has any value" - that is to say, being Jewish or not being Jewish. What matters is faithfulness to the Messiah, and explicitly not faith alone but faithfulness working through love. Or, in another place he doesn't say "working and not working is nothing" but instead "circumcision is nothing and uncircumcision is nothing" but what matters is - what, belief? No! Keeping the commandments of God.

The right question in response to this is not to start asking about what works are required, but what does it mean to be a faithful uncircumcised follower of the Lord? What does faithfulness look like? How can we be faithful to the Messiah? This is what the "second half" of all of St Paul's letters are about. He's teaching about how to be faithful. Frok's observation that we need to understand "exactly what faith is" nails it. Fortunately much of the NT is descriptive about what faithfulness is. St Paul tells us - obedience is what comes from faithfulness, and that is what we non-Jews of the nations are called to. He says that is what his apostolic call was for - to call us to obedience.

You cannot be obedient and do nothing. You cannot be faithful and do nothing. The only thing that has value is faith working through love.
Quote:

Yes, we are commanded to repent, be baptized, be faithful, not look at women in lust, love our enemies, share the gospel with all nations, love our wives as Christ loved the church, respect our husbands, be perfect as God is perfect, honor the kind, love God with all of our heart, sole, mind and strength, walk by the Spirit, love our neighbors as our selves, do all of our work motivated by His glory, not be given to much wine, and about 1000 other commands in the NT....

AND not one of these for the purpose of earning God's favor or entering a relationship with God.
This is just as frankly dumb as saying "yeah you vowed to have and to hold, for better, for worse, for richer, for poorer, in sickness and health, loving and cherishing, forsaking all others and not one of those are for the purpose of earning your spouse's favor or entering a relationship with them." Does not follow. You want a right relationship with God? Be obedient.

You cannot be disobedient and faithful. You are either obedient and faithful, or disobedient and faithless. What's more the opposite of a faithful servant is a wicked and lazy one. The Lord Himself says it clearly: "If you love Me, you will keep My commandments." And St John tells us - "If anyone says, 'I know Him,' but does not keep His commandments, he is a liar."

Your entire approach is anachronistic and foreign to the mind of the Apostles. It is only a 'debate' due to theological issues in the west that did not arise until centuries later!
FTACo88-FDT24dad
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Zobel said:

Salvation is not a math equation. It is grace and a gift.
Quote:

My entire premise is that Jesus did all of the work for my salvation and nothing I can do adds to it. His work is completely sufficient to save. I can trust in Him or I can trust in myself. I cannot do both. Once I trust Him, I should follow Him in obedience motivated by love not for the purpose of earning my salvation or adding to His work.
Again, literally no one is saying anything about earning salvation through works separate from Christ Jesus. And, likewise, no one is saying that we accomplish or complete the redemptive work of Christ Jesus.

The scriptures say to take hold of your eternal life, to work out your salvation, and that even we fill up what is lacking in ourselves in Christ's afflictions, because we are saved, we are being saved, and we will be saved. It literally uses past, present, future tense. Pushing salvation into a single moment is flatly unscriptural. The whole question you propose here is a false dichotomy, that working in love is fundamentally unfaithful to Christ Jesus. It isn't true, it is nonsense, and it contradicts the scripture in so many places.
Quote:

Actually people have been trying to add requirements to the finished work of Jesus/God since the law was written (and probably before). This is seen in the books of Galatians (circumcision), works (Romans, Titus, Ephesians), the gospels.
Wrong. Just abjectly, completely wrong. The question of works in all of these cases is not about salvation per se, it is about unity to God through Israel and how that works. It is completely incorrect to read "works" and think "good deeds" in these. These are about works of the Torah, which is everywhere and always about being Jewish, begin a Judaean. Always the question is about - if He is the God of Israel and the Jewish Messiah (and He is) then how do those of the other nations relate to Him? Do they become Jewish, as one reading of the Torah suggests (i.e., to take the Passover you must become Jewish) and therefore do you need to be Jewish to be saved? And the answer is no - you don't need to become Jewish, you become a faithful non-circumcised person, like Abraham was before he was circumcised, before the Torah was given. Therefore faithfulness is not contingent upon following the Torah, that is, being Jewish. And, that this is in fact how it has always worked - that there have always been people who were faithful outside of being a part of Israel, and that merely keeping the Torah (i.e., being Jewish even in a faithful, external way) did not make you faithful to God.

This is why when St Paul writes the verse - "the only thing that matters is faithfulness working through love" it is not preceded by "doing good works or not" but "neither circumcision nor uncircumcision has any value" - that is to say, being Jewish or not being Jewish. What matters is faithfulness to the Messiah, and explicitly not faith alone but faithfulness working through love. Or, in another place he doesn't say "working and not working is nothing" but instead "circumcision is nothing and uncircumcision is nothing" but what matters is - what, belief? No! Keeping the commandments of God.

The right question in response to this is not to start asking about what works are required, but what does it mean to be a faithful uncircumcised follower of the Lord? What does faithfulness look like? How can we be faithful to the Messiah? This is what the "second half" of all of St Paul's letters are about. He's teaching about how to be faithful. Frok's observation that we need to understand "exactly what faith is" nails it. Fortunately much of the NT is descriptive about what faithfulness is. St Paul tells us - obedience is what comes from faithfulness, and that is what we non-Jews of the nations are called to. He says that is what his apostolic call was for - to call us to obedience.

You cannot be obedient and do nothing. You cannot be faithful and do nothing. The only thing that has value is faith working through love.
Quote:

Yes, we are commanded to repent, be baptized, be faithful, not look at women in lust, love our enemies, share the gospel with all nations, love our wives as Christ loved the church, respect our husbands, be perfect as God is perfect, honor the kind, love God with all of our heart, sole, mind and strength, walk by the Spirit, love our neighbors as our selves, do all of our work motivated by His glory, not be given to much wine, and about 1000 other commands in the NT....

AND not one of these for the purpose of earning God's favor or entering a relationship with God.
This is just as frankly dumb as saying "yeah you vowed to have and to hold, for better, for worse, for richer, for poorer, in sickness and health, loving and cherishing, forsaking all others and not one of those are for the purpose of earning your spouse's favor or entering a relationship with them." Does not follow. You want a right relationship with God? Be obedient.

You cannot be disobedient and faithful. You are either obedient and faithful, or disobedient and faithless. What's more the opposite of a faithful servant is a wicked and lazy one. The Lord Himself says it clearly: "If you love Me, you will keep My commandments." And St John tells us - "If anyone says, 'I know Him,' but does not keep His commandments, he is a liar."

Your entire approach is anachronistic and foreign to the mind of the Apostles. It is only a 'debate' due to theological issues in the west that did not arise until centuries later!


I regret that I have but one blue star to give to this post.

I especially want to star this:

Quote:

Again, literally no one is saying anything about earning salvation through works separate from Christ Jesus. And, likewise, no one is saying that we accomplish or complete the redemptive work of Christ Jesus.

The scriptures say to take hold of your eternal life, to work out your salvation, and that even we fill up what is lacking in ourselves in Christ's afflictions, because we are saved, we are being saved, and we will be saved. It literally uses past, present, future tense. Pushing salvation into a single moment is flatly unscriptural. The whole question you propose here is a false dichotomy, that working in love is fundamentally unfaithful to Christ Jesus. It isn't true, it is nonsense, and it contradicts the scripture in so many places.



Quote:

"If you love Me, you will keep My commandments." And St John tells us - "If anyone says, 'I know Him,' but does not keep His commandments, he is a liar."


Those statements sure seem to make obedience a necessary part of salvation.

Quote:

God has done everything; he has done the impossible: he was made flesh. His all-powerful love has accomplished something which surpasses all human understanding: the Infinite has become a child, has entered the human family. And yet, this same God cannot enter my heart unless I open the door to him."
Pope Benedict XVI

Quo Vadis?
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So prots help with something. I've recently stumbled across an argument on x, where two prots are saying that essentially anyone who believes in Christ is saved, but those who believe in Christ and do good works get bling and superpowers in heaven.

I had never heard this before, is this a common Protestant belief?


FTACo88-FDT24dad
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VetSurg
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"Faith only" is used one time in the Bible. James 2:24.
FTACo88-FDT24dad
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I think this is an excellent explication of how Catholics (and I suspect Orthodox although I won't presume) see "faith alone" in the context of justification/righteousness.

10andBOUNCE
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Care to offer up some clif notes?
10andBOUNCE
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VetSurg said:

"Faith only" is used one time in the Bible. James 2:24.

I don't know how simpler it can get than Ephesians 2.

Ephesians 2:1-10

By Grace Through Faith

[1] And you were dead in the trespasses and sins [2] in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience[3] among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind. [4] But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, [5] even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christby grace you have been saved[6] and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, [7] so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. [8] For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, [9] not a result of works, so that no one may boast. [10] For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.
VetSurg
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10andBOUNCE said:

VetSurg said:

"Faith only" is used one time in the Bible. James 2:24.

I don't know how simpler it can get than Ephesians 2.

Ephesians 2:1-10

By Grace Through Faith

[1] And you were dead in the trespasses and sins [2] in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience[3] among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind. [4] But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, [5] even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christby grace you have been saved[6] and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, [7] so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. [8] For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, [9] not a result of works, so that no one may boast. [10] For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.
James 2 makes it plain.
MEXIA74
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Faith without works is dead.
Howdy, it is me!
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MEXIA74 said:

Faith without works is dead.


Is faith the result of works or works the result of faith? Do you work to keep the faith or work because of faith?
MEXIA74
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Works prove your faith.
MEXIA74
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People that say man's effort has no part in salvation, how can you repent without effort.
Zobel
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That verse is all you plural, as in, you gentiles. "You people," if you will. It has nothing to do with individual decisions in context. Read the next paragraph, it explains exactly what he means by salvation and the grace shown. It's about reconciliation of the separation between gentiles and Jews.
FTACo88-FDT24dad
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10andBOUNCE said:

Care to offer up some clif notes?


No. It's already a summary and to further summarize would do violence to it.
Howdy, it is me!
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Zobel said:

That verse is all you plural, as in, you gentiles. "You people," if you will. It has nothing to do with individual decisions in context. Read the next paragraph, it explains exactly what he means by salvation and the grace shown. It's about reconciliation of the separation between gentiles and Jews.


Gentiles, yes, but saved gentiles.
Zobel
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Believing / faithful gentiles, yes. But the salvation being discussed there is being brought near by the blood of Christ, that is the once for all atonement, which purified the gentiles and the whole world and allowed them to approach His holiness, reconciling all men, enabling them to access the Spirit and the Father, enabling everyone to become one body, one people.

That's what He did for us while we were sinners, apart from any action of our own, unilaterally, while we of the other nations were ignorant of and separate from God.

As St Paul says - the mystery is that those of the other nations are fellow heirs (with Israel), members of the same body (as Israel), and partakers of the promise (to Abraham) in Christ Jesus through the gospel.

There is no "how" here with regard to individual salvation. It's not what the passage is about. It is about the nations being reconciled to God through the blood of Christ. How individual members of the nations partake of that grace is not in the scope of the passage.
Zobel
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Follow up point: this is largely the same message St Paul preaches to non-believing Greeks in Athens at the Areopagus. And the beginning of Romans. It's almost as if this is his gospel, and it is the central message he teaches in order to bring those of the nations into obedience to the Messiah and into one body with Israel.
DANManman
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From very recent events, I now believe what God is looking for from us is the EARNEST DESIRE to believe in Jesus's death and resurrection! "Trust in the Lord with all your heart, and lean not on your own understanding." (Proverbs 3:5)
Jesus's sermon on the Mount also addresses that the shortcomings with mankind stem from our hearts (ie., motivations). Jesus also stated "seek, and ye shall find." (Matthew 7:7-8) The entire body, including the mind, is wracked in sin, so does it make sense that we could just trust as a violation of our flawed logic? But if we try to believe, God will meet us where we are. In this way, we still have a choice, yet God is still in control of us having faith.
Jesus saves
Hey...so.. um
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I really seems like some of yall are arguing two sides of the same coin.

Faith alone saves but if you truly have faith, you will transform and acts will come.

Acts without faith ae empty but can lead to faith imo.
Zobel
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The scriptures never say faith alone saves. They do say actionless faith is not salvific, both literally and by implication, so that seems to say that faith alone doesn't save. QED.
Hey...so.. um
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Zobel said:

The scriptures never say faith alone saves. They do say actionless faith is not salvific, both literally and by implication, so that seems to say that faith alone doesn't save. QED.


They are tied together. If you have faith, you will act.
Zobel
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So you might say… faith alone doesn't save?
FTACo88-FDT24dad
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Zobel said:

So you might say… faith alone doesn't save?
According to Jesus, it's what we DO or DON'T do that determines our ultimate fate.

See Matthew 25:31-42 when he says he will separate the sheep from the goats based on what they have or have not done and the goats will be sent to the eternal fire prepared for his devils and his angels.

Quote:

31 "When the Son of man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne. 32Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate them one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats, 33and he will place the sheep at his right hand, but the goats at the left. 34Then the King will say to those at his right hand, 'Come, O blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world; 35for I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me, 36I was naked and you clothed me, I was sick and you visited me, I was in prison and you came to me.' 37Then the righteous will answer him, 'Lord, when did we see thee hungry and feed thee, or thirsty and give thee drink? 38And when did we see thee a stranger and welcome thee, or naked and clothe thee? 39And when did we see thee sick or in prison and visit thee?' 40And the King will answer them, 'Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brethren, you did it to me.' 41Then he will say to those at his left hand, 'Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels; 42for I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink, 43I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not clothe me, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.' 44Then they also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see thee hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to thee?' 45Then he will answer them, 'Truly, I say to you, as you did it not to one of the least of these, you did it not to me.' 46And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."
The Banned
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Hey...so.. um said:

Zobel said:

The scriptures never say faith alone saves. They do say actionless faith is not salvific, both literally and by implication, so that seems to say that faith alone doesn't save. QED.


They are tied together. If you have faith, you will act.


Does the faith make you act, or is your choice to place your faith in Jesus just one of many actions that keep you in the fold?
Hey...so.. um
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Faith makes you act in my opinion. Walking with Jesus is transformational and will change everything you do in life.
The Banned
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Hey...so.. um said:

Faith makes you act in my opinion. Walking with Jesus is transformational and will change everything you do in life.


And this leads to a significant issue: it doesn't change everything we do. We still have sinful thoughts. We still act on those sinful thoughts. So is that just us not placing enough faith to act well? Or do we have the same amount of faith, but it isn't powerful enough to overcome our sinful desires?

The traditional faiths have an easy answer for this, but the "faith alone" crowd, and especially the "faith alone" that believes in once saved always saved, do not.
Hey...so.. um
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The Banned said:

Hey...so.. um said:

Faith makes you act in my opinion. Walking with Jesus is transformational and will change everything you do in life.


And this leads to a significant issue: it doesn't change everything we do. We still have sinful thoughts. We still act on those sinful thoughts. So is that just us not placing enough faith to act well? Or do we have the same amount of faith, but it isn't powerful enough to overcome our sinful desires?

The traditional faiths have an easy answer for this, but the "faith alone" crowd, and especially the "faith alone" that believes in once saved always saved, do not.


We are still human and will sin all of our days even with a transformed heart. How we view the sin should change though and that is more of an indicator of your heart than just actions sometimes.

An example. Before Jesus I had a serious anger issue. Now, I still get angry sometimes, but it isn't for as long and I have immediate remorse afterwards. I'm a work in progress just like everyone else is here. I strive to be perfect but know only the grace of Jesus can save me because my actions would only deserve hell.

Faith will lead to action, not perfect action but headed in that direction.
The Banned
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Faith leads to action or faith makes you act?

I'm not trying to be a pest here, but there is an important distinction that, in my experience, tends to fly under the radar. If it wasn't for the fact that this distinction leads to denominational divide, I'd let it go without comment.
Zobel
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Or the action -is- the faith, because without action you cannot be faithful.
FTACo88-FDT24dad
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Zobel said:

Or the action -is- the faith, because without action you cannot be faithful.
Yes!

Faithfulness: noun
[ol]
  • lasting loyalty and trustworthiness in relationships, especially marriage and friendship:A wedding ring is a symbol of unending love and faithfulness to each other.I remember the faithfulness of so many friends and family who sent me emails, visited me, and stood with me during my ordeal.
  • the fact or quality of being true to one's word or commitments, as to what one has pledged to do, professes to believe, etc.:In the Bible, the psalmist David reports God's faithfulness in keeping promises.
  • the fact or quality of being dedicated and steadfast in performing one's duty, working for a cause, etc.:We lawyers have an ethical obligation to represent our clients with diligence, faithfulness, and competence.
  • the quality of adhering to fact, a standard, or an original; accuracy:Professional translators often focus on the faithfulness of a translation to the original, with too little attention to the naturalness or comprehensibility of the translated version.
  • [/ol]

    Faith working by, through and under love is the faith of the scriptures, Old and New Testament.
    The Banned
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    Zobel said:

    Or the action -is- the faith, because without action you cannot be faithful.


    Couldn't agree more.
    Txducker
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    The Banned said:

    So for those of a different Protestant tradition, I'd like to get your input: if you believe that God calls us and it's on us to respond to the call in the affirmative, are we not, at least in part, saved by a work? If choosing to accept or reject the gift God has given us is not a human work contributing to our salvation, what is it?
    Depends on your definition of work. Examples of human work in scripture would show work as a PHYSICAL action for example (sacrificing an animal, giving money to the poor, caring for a sick person). There is no precedent in scripture for describing faith or belief as work. You have interpreted the word work out of context the way it was used in scripture.

    Ephesians 2:8-9: "For by grace you have been saved through faith and this not your own doing; it is the gift of God".

    Gifts are received and not worked for. You have the freedom to not reject the gift of grace and love from God. It probably takes more work to reject God's goodness, love, and grace than to passively enjoy Gods gift of love. I have never thought of receiving love and kindness from someone as work. God has always wanted us to be in a loving relationship with Him.
    This is from a Lutheran Missouri Synod perspective.
    Zobel
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    People love taking that verse out of context.

    https://texags.com/forums/15/topics/3517107/replies/69335311
     
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