FTACo88-FDT24dad said:

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10andBOUNCE said:

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And since we are on the topic, it is harder for me to fathom a God whom loves all human beings equally with his special, saving love, but yet for many who do not repent, he gives an ultimate judgement of eternal separation from him. Almost mind blowing to think of a God loving all the same and handing out such different judgement in the end.

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Paraphrasing CS Lewis here - In the end, there are two types of people: those who say to God "Thy will be done" and those to whom God says "Thy will be done." Those who end up in hell choose that as their final destination. And, our all loving God, respecting their free will because that's what authentic love requires, grants their wish.

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Blue star.

Again, we can find many stories in the Bible, but the one this most shines through is the prodigal son. His dad never came and picked him up and made him come home. The implication being that he could have easily stayed apart from his father and died that way. That's would not change the fathers love for the son, but their relationship would be forever broken.

Agree.

You won't like my answer, but the part in which this son decides to go back would be something that is only enabled by God by his special grace.

Luke 15:17-19
"But when he came to himself, he said, 'How many of my father's hired servants have more than enough bread, but I perish here with hunger! I will arise and go to my father, and I will say to him, "Father, I have sinned against heaven and before you. I am no longer worthy to be called your son. Treat me as one of your hired servants."'

1 Corinthians 2:14
The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned.

10andBOUNCE said:

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You won't like my answer, but the part in which this son decides to go back would be something that is only enabled by God by his special grace.

Luke 15:17-19
"But when he came to himself, he said, 'How many of my father's hired servants have more than enough bread, but I perish here with hunger! I will arise and go to my father, and I will say to him, "Father, I have sinned against heaven and before you. I am no longer worthy to be called your son. Treat me as one of your hired servants."'

1 Corinthians 2:14
The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned.

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I don't mind that answer at all. God does the grace. We simply believe He does it to everyone and not in some overwhelming manner that we can't refuse.

So take the son again. The grace is the father being good and merciful and loving and caring for the son. None of those things are facts the son didn't know about prior. He knew that prior and rejected it. It was a knowledgeable choice to eschew these things for a worldly life. Hence the son had to come to his senses and go back. There is nothing new about what is being offered to him. He simply has to get up and accept it.

Take the conversation with the elder son after. The elder son states how he has stuck around and done everything the father has asked, indicating again that there is a choice. This isn't some overwhelming force. Grace is there for everyone. It is always there to accept and refuse.

If you see this moment as God monergistically changing the prodigal son so that he is now capable of making a good choice, then you're reading that into the parable rather than just reading it for what it is

Do you see the elder son as the picture of the Pharisees? I do.

The Banned said:

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10andBOUNCE said:

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You won't like my answer, but the part in which this son decides to go back would be something that is only enabled by God by his special grace.

Luke 15:17-19
"But when he came to himself, he said, 'How many of my father's hired servants have more than enough bread, but I perish here with hunger! I will arise and go to my father, and I will say to him, "Father, I have sinned against heaven and before you. I am no longer worthy to be called your son. Treat me as one of your hired servants."'

1 Corinthians 2:14
The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned.

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I don't mind that answer at all. God does the grace. We simply believe He does it to everyone and not in some overwhelming manner that we can't refuse.

So take the son again. The grace is the father being good and merciful and loving and caring for the son. None of those things are facts the son didn't know about prior. He knew that prior and rejected it. It was a knowledgeable choice to eschew these things for a worldly life. Hence the son had to come to his senses and go back. There is nothing new about what is being offered to him. He simply has to get up and accept it.

Take the conversation with the elder son after. The elder son states how he has stuck around and done everything the father has asked, indicating again that there is a choice. This isn't some overwhelming force. Grace is there for everyone. It is always there to accept and refuse.

If you see this moment as God monergistically changing the prodigal son so that he is now capable of making a good choice, then you're reading that into the parable rather than just reading it for what it is

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Agree. We interpret Scripture through the lens we are using.

I think there's several ways. The Pharisees, sure. And the Judaeans, generally - making the younger son the gentiles.

The Banned said:

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FTACo88-FDT24dad said:

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10andBOUNCE said:

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And since we are on the topic, it is harder for me to fathom a God whom loves all human beings equally with his special, saving love, but yet for many who do not repent, he gives an ultimate judgement of eternal separation from him. Almost mind blowing to think of a God loving all the same and handing out such different judgement in the end.

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Paraphrasing CS Lewis here - In the end, there are two types of people: those who say to God "Thy will be done" and those to whom God says "Thy will be done." Those who end up in hell choose that as their final destination. And, our all loving God, respecting their free will because that's what authentic love requires, grants their wish.

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Blue star.

Again, we can find many stories in the Bible, but the one this most shines through is the prodigal son. His dad never came and picked him up and made him come home. The implication being that he could have easily stayed apart from his father and died that way. That's would not change the fathers love for the son, but their relationship would be forever broken.

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I like this explanation.

10andBOUNCE said:

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Do you see the elder son as the picture of the Pharisees? I do.

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Could be. Not sure what that would have to do with the idea of the prodigal son having a choice in his return.

It doesn't, just curious.

10andBOUNCE said:

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You won't like my answer, but the part in which this son decides to go back would be something that is only enabled by God by his special grace.

Luke 15:17-19
"But when he came to himself, he said, 'How many of my father's hired servants have more than enough bread, but I perish here with hunger! I will arise and go to my father, and I will say to him, "Father, I have sinned against heaven and before you. I am no longer worthy to be called your son. Treat me as one of your hired servants."'

1 Corinthians 2:14
The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned.

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I don't think there's anything sus about saying it's a special grace of God that turns the prodigal back. But it does beg the question of what is grace.

Grace, in Catholic theology, is a profound gift from God that ENABLES us to participate in His divine life. It is through grace that we are justified and sanctified. The Catechism of the Catholic Church (CCC 1996) states, "Grace is favor, the free and undeserved HELP that God gives us to respond to his call to become children of God."

In the case of the prodigal son, it was actual grace, which enabled the son to turn and go back (repent) but it would ultimately be sanctifying grace that saved him from perdition and for communion with his father.

Be very careful with the parable interpretations folks. As a vital hermeneutical principle, Jesus told parables to make a point through an illustration (usually just one point, although the prodigal is one of the few that has legit multiple), in some context and usually in response to a question, and if you try to break down the character's actions into potential alternate possibilities or assign multiple layers of meaning you'll get way out of bounds. The meaning of parables is typically right on the surface.

Sorry been trying to go back and type something up on the conversation on God's love but there is so much to cover to at least get others on the same track of my reasoning.

tk111 said:

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Be very careful with the parable interpretations folks. As a vital hermeneutical principle, Jesus told parables to make a point through an illustration (usually just one point, although the prodigal is one of the few that has legit multiple), in some context and usually in response to a question, and if you try to break down the character's actions into potential alternate possibilities or assign multiple layers of meaning you'll get way out of bounds. The meaning of parables is typically right on the surface.

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I agree. I generally don't like biblical proof texting, but sometimes I can't resist the temptation. That's why this thread started on the logical underpinnings of what "faith alone" must mean and I intentionally stayed away from tossing out Bible passages for as long as I did.

My thesis was that true monergistic "faith alone" essentially requires Calvinism, which you would agree with I assume. I thought free grace/OSAS type of theology would satisfy monergsitic "faith alone" too, but as you pointed out on the other board, there is still an element of choosing to respond to the altar call that exists there.

But when St Paul writes for specific purposes and to answer questions we should glean whatever theology we can to extrapolate, right?

Zobel said:

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But when St Paul writes for specific purposes and to answer questions we should glean whatever theology we can to extrapolate, right?

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I know you're being a bit facetious but this is wildly weird statement. There is no "extrapolation" of theology from the epistles - quite the opposite. If I write a word, I have to have the alphabet to do so. If I write a letter to a mixed church of Jews and gentiles to (among other things) explain the various ways in which they have unity in Christ, the explanation has to be based on a framework of biblical/theological principles. Is Paul just shootin from the hip to get them to get along?

tk111 said:

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Zobel said:

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But when St Paul writes for specific purposes and to answer questions we should glean whatever theology we can to extrapolate, right?

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I know you're being a bit facetious but this is wildly weird statement. There is no "extrapolation" of theology from the epistles - quite the opposite. If I write a word, I have to have the alphabet to do so. If I write a letter to a mixed church of Jews and gentiles to (among other things) explain the various ways in which they have unity in Christ, the explanation has to be based on a framework of biblical/theological principles. Is Paul just shootin from the hip to get them to get along?

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In the case of the Pauline epistles don't we all agree tbat it's the Holy Spirit working through Paul?

it can't be based on biblical principles because "the bible" didn't exist yet. i'm not sure anything like what we would call "theology" in modern parlance existed either. you had teaching, but not strict systematic theology or anything like it.

the point isn't whether or not St Paul is shooting from the hip, and he wasn't. it's that you say hey, the words of Jesus' parables should be understood narrowly because they are focused in context to respond to a specific question. well, St Paul's letters are focused in context, usually to respond to a question or set of questions or a problem as well. why the difference?

you're all about narrow on one, but broad on the other. seems like we should be consistent.

Since we were talking about Clement in the other thread...

Quote:

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Letter to the Corinthians (Clement)

Chapter 32. We are Justified Not by Our Own Works, But by Faith.

Whosoever will candidly consider each particular, will recognise the greatness of the gifts which were given by him. For from him have sprung the priests and all the Levites who minister at the altar of God. From him also [was descended] our Lord Jesus Christ according to the flesh. Romans 9:5 From him [arose] kings, princes, and rulers of the race of Judah. Nor are his other tribes in small glory, inasmuch as God had promised, Your seed shall be as the stars of heaven. All these, therefore, were highly honoured, and made great, not for their own sake, or for their own works, or for the righteousness which they wrought, but through the operation of His will. And we, too, being called by His will in Christ Jesus, are not justified by ourselves, nor by our own wisdom, or understanding, or godliness, or works which we have wrought in holiness of heart; but by that faith through which, from the beginning, Almighty God has justified all men; to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.

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https://www.newadvent.org/fathers/1010.htm

10andBOUNCE said:

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Since we were talking about Clement in the other thread...

Quote:

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Letter to the Corinthians (Clement)

Chapter 32. We are Justified Not by Our Own Works, But by Faith.

Whosoever will candidly consider each particular, will recognise the greatness of the gifts which were given by him. For from him have sprung the priests and all the Levites who minister at the altar of God. From him also [was descended] our Lord Jesus Christ according to the flesh. Romans 9:5 From him [arose] kings, princes, and rulers of the race of Judah. Nor are his other tribes in small glory, inasmuch as God had promised, Your seed shall be as the stars of heaven. All these, therefore, were highly honoured, and made great, not for their own sake, or for their own works, or for the righteousness which they wrought, but through the operation of His will. And we, too, being called by His will in Christ Jesus, are not justified by ourselves, nor by our own wisdom, or understanding, or godliness, or works which we have wrought in holiness of heart; but by that faith through which, from the beginning, Almighty God has justified all men; to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.

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https://www.newadvent.org/fathers/1010.htm

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The Catholic Church teaches that the initial grace of justification is 100% a gift from God, no meritorious cooperation possible.

Understood; I think there is evidence on the contrary, in which the early church actually embraced the true distinction between justification and sanctification.

10andBOUNCE said:

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Understood; I think there is evidence on the contrary, in which the early church actually embraced the true distinction between justification and sanctification.

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I don't understand the point you are trying to make.

The idea that justification is a one time thing and not a lifelong process. The lifelong process and journey towards holiness is our sanctification and is distinctly different that our righteous standing before God (we have been justified through faith alone).

10andBOUNCE said:

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Since we were talking about Clement in the other thread...

Quote:

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Letter to the Corinthians (Clement)

Chapter 32. We are Justified Not by Our Own Works, But by Faith.

Whosoever will candidly consider each particular, will recognise the greatness of the gifts which were given by him. For from him have sprung the priests and all the Levites who minister at the altar of God. From him also [was descended] our Lord Jesus Christ according to the flesh. Romans 9:5 From him [arose] kings, princes, and rulers of the race of Judah. Nor are his other tribes in small glory, inasmuch as God had promised, Your seed shall be as the stars of heaven. All these, therefore, were highly honoured, and made great, not for their own sake, or for their own works, or for the righteousness which they wrought, but through the operation of His will. And we, too, being called by His will in Christ Jesus, are not justified by ourselves, nor by our own wisdom, or understanding, or godliness, or works which we have wrought in holiness of heart; but by that faith through which, from the beginning, Almighty God has justified all men; to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.

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https://www.newadvent.org/fathers/1010.htm

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I can quote a number of snippets from that letter to help clarify such as this:

Abraham, styled the friend, was found faithful, inasmuch as he rendered obedience to the words of God. He, in the exercise of obedience, went out from his own country, and from his kindred, and from his father's house, in order that, by forsaking a small territory, and a weak family, and an insignificant house, he might inherit the promises of God

Also: Let us clothe ourselves with concord and humility, ever exercising self-control, standing far off from all whispering and evil-speaking, being justified by our works, and not our words

You are seeing words you recognize but their meaning has been twisted by the reformers from their original intent. There are plenty more snippets to give context to your clip above and they don't look anything like one time justification.

What's most interesting is that letter (not sure if you read the entire thing) starting in chapter 38 and going through the 40s describes church authority and how church authority is specifically instituted by thee apostles in order to avoid division. I like this letter a lot. They knew people like you and I one day would want to be on the same page but that obstacles were going to arise. So they chose people to continue on their work.

Have not read it all but will try to do so this week!

10andBOUNCE said:

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Have not read it all but will try to do so this week!

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It's a good one

Some snippets from Marius Victorinus

For faith itself alone grants justification and sanctification. Thus any flesh whatsoeverJews or those from the Gentilesis justified on the basis of faith, not works or observance of the Jewish Law.

For then will it have been enacted on our behalf, enacted for our resurrection and liberation, if we but have faith in Christ and in the Mystery of Christ. For by this treatment of Abraham, the divine reality set out beforehand and gave advance notice that human beings would be justified based on faith. As it was accounted to Abraham as justice, then, because he had faith, therefore, if we have faith in Christ and his whole Mystery, we too will be children of Abraham.

For all things come about on the basis of faith: the promise was given to Abraham based on faith, and thus to his seed as well (Gal 3:20).

For faith liberates, and anyone, as we have said, who hopes for help in any way besides Christ, even if it be along with Christ, does not have faith (Gal 5:9).

This is the same thing St. Paul says. God is the god of all people, not just Jews, and the gentiles do not need to follow the Jewish Law to be saved.

I agree. I feel like there is a big "but…." coming

the contrast is not faith vs good works, it's faith vs following the Torah as a Jew. If you don't do good works, you are not faithful. A person who doesn't do anything, who has no fruit, is not faithful.

So you are saying that following the Torah =/= good works.
and therefore it still is Faith + Good Works?

Mostly, yes. The Torah says if you're son of Israel, you must do all of these things, because God has set you apart to Himself. It also says, everyone who dwells in the land must NOT practice sexual immorality, idolatry, or eating blood because these things are an abomination for anyone to do.

And it teaches by example how the life of a person who is pleasing to God looks.

St Paul says, ok - yes, Jesus of Nazareth is the Messiah, and is the Word of Yahweh, the God of the Jews. Yes, the Jews worship Yahweh and by their law / custom (Torah) they have to live a certain way. But the great mystery is that people of the other nations - non-Jews - can come to worship the God of the Jews through Jesus also. Not only that, but they can become heirs to all the promises made to the Jews through Abraham because Jesus inherits all of these promises as the firstborn! And, the kicker, they do NOT have to become Jews to inherit these promises. They have to be faithful to the heir, and He will distribute the inheritance to all the faithful: Jew or non-Jew, no partiality.

To the Jews, he says - y'all need to open your eyes to the fact that keeping the Torah is not and has never been what saves you. Being faithful to Yahweh - which means Jesus the Messiah - saves you. For sons of Israel that includes keeping the Torah, but keeping the commandments is not enough. Keeping them in an external way but not with the heart is not faithfulness. If you keep the Torah outwardly but do not love, show mercy, defend the orphan and the widow, do not have humility, you have not kept the Torah inwardly, and are not pleasing to God. And rejection of the Messiah means you are unfaithful no matter what you do with regard to the Torah. So the same thing that saves the non-Jew, faithfulness to the Messiah, is what saves the Jew.

To both he says: being faithful to God is what makes you pleasing to God (justifies you, tsedaqah in Hebrew). And if you are faithful to the Messiah the Spirit of God will dwell in you, and you will keep the whole Torah whether you are a Jew or not! Because you will love God and love others, and these fulfill the whole Torah and don't break any of its commandments.

Then he goes on to teach in all of his letters what that life of faithfulness looks like. A life of faithfulness is loving, forgiving, not quarreling, being generous, using your gifts to build up the church, keeping yourself pure, avoiding evil, repenting when you sin, and so on. In other words, faithfulness to the Messiah is good works.

So it it isn't faith plus good works, it is that faith = good works. Good works are the stuff faithfulness is made of.

Zobel said:

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Mostly, yes. The Torah says if you're son of Israel, you must do all of these things, because God has set you apart to Himself. It also says, everyone who dwells in the land must NOT practice sexual immorality, idolatry, or eating blood because these things are an abomination for anyone to do.

And it teaches by example how the life of a person who is pleasing to God looks.

St Paul says, ok - yes, Jesus of Nazareth is the Messiah, and is the Word of Yahweh, the God of the Jews. Yes, the Jews worship Yahweh and by their law / custom (Torah) they have to live a certain way. But the great mystery is that people of the other nations - non-Jews - can come to worship the God of the Jews through Jesus also. Not only that, but they can become heirs to all the promises made to the Jews through Abraham because Jesus inherits all of these promises as the firstborn! And, the kicker, they do NOT have to become Jews to inherit these promises. They have to be faithful to the heir, and He will distribute the inheritance to all the faithful: Jew or non-Jew, no partiality.

To the Jews, he says - y'all need to open your eyes to the fact that keeping the Torah is not and has never been what saves you. Being faithful to Yahweh - which means Jesus the Messiah - saves you. For sons of Israel that includes keeping the Torah, but keeping the commandments is not enough. Keeping them in an external way but not with the heart is not faithfulness. If you keep the Torah outwardly but do not love, show mercy, defend the orphan and the widow, do not have humility, you have not kept the Torah inwardly, and are not pleasing to God. And rejection of the Messiah means you are unfaithful no matter what you do with regard to the Torah. So the same thing that saves the non-Jew, faithfulness to the Messiah, is what saves the Jew.

To both he says: being faithful to God is what makes you pleasing to God (justifies you, tsedaqah in Hebrew). And if you are faithful to the Messiah the Spirit of God will dwell in you, and you will keep the whole Torah whether you are a Jew or not! Because you will love God and love others, and these fulfill the whole Torah and don't break any of its commandments.

Then he goes on to teach in all of his letters what that life of faithfulness looks like. A life of faithfulness is loving, forgiving, not quarreling, being generous, using your gifts to build up the church, keeping yourself pure, avoiding evil, repenting when you sin, and so on. In other words, faithfulness to the Messiah is good works.

So it it isn't faith plus good works, it is that faith = good works. Good works are the stuff faithfulness is made of.

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Love your last two sentences.

Zobel said:

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So it it isn't faith plus good works, it is that faith = good works. Good works are the stuff faithfulness is made of.

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I will disagree from a mathematical stance. Since you are equating those two, I can flip them and it becomes...

good works = faith

Is it all the same thing? Can I substitute anywhere I see "faith" with "good works"?

"For you have been saved by grace through faith". The apostle has explained plainly that there ought to be faith on our part, but we ought believe only in Christ. Because of this [salvation] is ours in this way alone, we have not been saved by our merit but by grace of God. To sum it up, Paul adds the following: And this is not from you, it is a gift of God; it is not from works, lest perchance someone boast". Because we have been saved grace, Paul claims, it is of God. So you too Ephesians, because you have been saved, it is not from you, it is a gift of God. Nor is it from your works, but it is the grace of God, it is the gift of God not by your merit.
- Marius Victorinus, Commentary on Ephesians

I fail to see how there could be any confusion. He is even so bold to see that this is explained plainly not for the part of Jews, but for OUR part. Those redeemed and in the fellowship of Christ.

Not from works, not from you, not by your merit...