Quote:

---

Stated this is the other thread, but I know not everyone has time to go through 10 pages of that back and forth.

Based on a number of conversations with some of the Calvinist/reformed folks on here, as well as personal interactions,, it's got me thinking that if "faith alone" is true, they have probably reached the most literal conclusion of what that means.

So for those of a different Protestant tradition, I'd like to get your input: if you believe that God calls us and it's on us to respond to the call in the affirmative, are we not, at least in part, saved by a work? If choosing to accept or reject the gift God has given us is not a human work contributing to our salvation, what is it?

---

Read through these 3 passages and the consider the comments below...

Eph 2:8-9 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.

Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness, 6 just as David also speaks of the blessing on the man to whom God credits righteousness apart from works:
7 "Blessed are those whose lawless deeds have been forgiven,
And whose sins have been covered.
8 "Blessed is the man whose sin the Lord will not take into account."

1 Corinthians 15:13 But if there is no resurrection of the dead, not even Christ has been raised; 14 and if Christ has not been raised, then our preaching is vain, your faith also is vain. 15 Moreover we are even found to be false witnesses of God, because we testified against God that He raised Christ, whom He did not raise, if in fact the dead are not raised. 16 For if the dead are not raised, not even Christ has been raised; 17 and if Christ has not been raised, your faith is worthless; you are still in your sins.

I was challenged at one point with this question. Is your faith in Jesus or is your faith in your faith?

• The is a clear distinction about the contrast of faith and works in regards to the moment of justification (the point in time in which a person believes, receives the indwelling Holy Spirit, and is forgiven for all sins for all time, and heaven is guaranteed)
• All of the work for this has been accomplished by the work of God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit. (Eph 1)
• If this work had not been done by God/Jesus: no amount of works or faith has any value and we are dead in our sins.
• The opposite or antithesis of faith or believing is not works. The opposite of faith is to not believe or to reject the gift.
• If one wants to call believing in Jesus' death and resurrection for your sins a work, that's an option. The problem would be adding unnecessary confusion to the gospel and not making it clear. If the bible draws a distinction so should we.

Psalms 33
13The Lord looks from heaven;
He sees all the sons of men;
14 From His dwelling place He looks out
On all the inhabitants of the earth,
15 He who fashions the hearts of them all,
He who understands all their works.
16 The king is not saved by a mighty army;
A warrior is not delivered by great strength.
17 A horse is a false hope for victory;
Nor does it deliver anyone by its great strength.

DirtDiver said:

---

Quote:

---

Stated this is the other thread, but I know not everyone has time to go through 10 pages of that back and forth.

Based on a number of conversations with some of the Calvinist/reformed folks on here, as well as personal interactions,, it's got me thinking that if "faith alone" is true, they have probably reached the most literal conclusion of what that means.

So for those of a different Protestant tradition, I'd like to get your input: if you believe that God calls us and it's on us to respond to the call in the affirmative, are we not, at least in part, saved by a work? If choosing to accept or reject the gift God has given us is not a human work contributing to our salvation, what is it?

---

Read through these 3 passages and the consider the comments below...

Eph 2:8-9 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.

Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness, 6 just as David also speaks of the blessing on the man to whom God credits righteousness apart from works:
7 "Blessed are those whose lawless deeds have been forgiven,
And whose sins have been covered.
8 "Blessed is the man whose sin the Lord will not take into account."

1 Corinthians 15:13 But if there is no resurrection of the dead, not even Christ has been raised; 14 and if Christ has not been raised, then our preaching is vain, your faith also is vain. 15 Moreover we are even found to be false witnesses of God, because we testified against God that He raised Christ, whom He did not raise, if in fact the dead are not raised. 16 For if the dead are not raised, not even Christ has been raised; 17 and if Christ has not been raised, your faith is worthless; you are still in your sins.

I was challenged at one point with this question. Is your faith in Jesus or is your faith in your faith?

• The is a clear distinction about the contrast of faith and works in regards to the moment of justification (the point in time in which a person believes, receives the indwelling Holy Spirit, and is forgiven for all sins for all time, and heaven is guaranteed)
• All of the work for this has been accomplished by the work of God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit. (Eph 1)
• If this work had not been done by God/Jesus: no amount of works or faith has any value and we are dead in our sins.
• The opposite or antithesis of faith or believing is not works. The opposite of faith is to not believe or to reject the gift.
• If one wants to call believing in Jesus' death and resurrection for your sins a work, that's an option. The problem would be adding unnecessary confusion to the gospel and not making it clear. If the bible draws a distinction so should we.

Psalms 33
13The Lord looks from heaven;
He sees all the sons of men;
14 From His dwelling place He looks out
On all the inhabitants of the earth,
15 He who fashions the hearts of them all,
He who understands all their works.
16 The king is not saved by a mighty army;
A warrior is not delivered by great strength.
17 A horse is a false hope for victory;
Nor does it deliver anyone by its great strength.

---

Your faith is expressed not only in a one time acceptance of Christ. Otherwise someone could genuinely state and believe their faith in a moment and if the believer OSAS, then it's possible their desire to sin could return but they'd just believe that's ok. Faith is both an initial acceptance of God's grace and one's perseverance in it. If one does not persevere, scripture tells us we will not inherit the kingdom. Doesn't mean any amount of works is the reason for the salvation but rather remaining in our faith. We do this with the help of the HS but we do not become robots. We desire to be faithful to Christ in how we live. It may not be likely but it's certainly possible to fall away, or we wouldn't have all the warnings about it in scripture

BluHorseShu said:

---

DirtDiver said:

---

Quote:

---

Stated this is the other thread, but I know not everyone has time to go through 10 pages of that back and forth.

Based on a number of conversations with some of the Calvinist/reformed folks on here, as well as personal interactions,, it's got me thinking that if "faith alone" is true, they have probably reached the most literal conclusion of what that means.

So for those of a different Protestant tradition, I'd like to get your input: if you believe that God calls us and it's on us to respond to the call in the affirmative, are we not, at least in part, saved by a work? If choosing to accept or reject the gift God has given us is not a human work contributing to our salvation, what is it?

---

Read through these 3 passages and the consider the comments below...

Eph 2:8-9 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.

Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness, 6 just as David also speaks of the blessing on the man to whom God credits righteousness apart from works:
7 "Blessed are those whose lawless deeds have been forgiven,
And whose sins have been covered.
8 "Blessed is the man whose sin the Lord will not take into account."

1 Corinthians 15:13 But if there is no resurrection of the dead, not even Christ has been raised; 14 and if Christ has not been raised, then our preaching is vain, your faith also is vain. 15 Moreover we are even found to be false witnesses of God, because we testified against God that He raised Christ, whom He did not raise, if in fact the dead are not raised. 16 For if the dead are not raised, not even Christ has been raised; 17 and if Christ has not been raised, your faith is worthless; you are still in your sins.

I was challenged at one point with this question. Is your faith in Jesus or is your faith in your faith?

• The is a clear distinction about the contrast of faith and works in regards to the moment of justification (the point in time in which a person believes, receives the indwelling Holy Spirit, and is forgiven for all sins for all time, and heaven is guaranteed)
• All of the work for this has been accomplished by the work of God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit. (Eph 1)
• If this work had not been done by God/Jesus: no amount of works or faith has any value and we are dead in our sins.
• The opposite or antithesis of faith or believing is not works. The opposite of faith is to not believe or to reject the gift.
• If one wants to call believing in Jesus' death and resurrection for your sins a work, that's an option. The problem would be adding unnecessary confusion to the gospel and not making it clear. If the bible draws a distinction so should we.

Psalms 33
13The Lord looks from heaven;
He sees all the sons of men;
14 From His dwelling place He looks out
On all the inhabitants of the earth,
15 He who fashions the hearts of them all,
He who understands all their works.
16 The king is not saved by a mighty army;
A warrior is not delivered by great strength.
17 A horse is a false hope for victory;
Nor does it deliver anyone by its great strength.

---

Your faith is expressed not only in a one time acceptance of Christ. Otherwise someone could genuinely state and believe their faith in a moment and if the believer OSAS, then it's possible their desire to sin could return but they'd just believe that's ok. Faith is both an initial acceptance of God's grace and one's perseverance in it. If one does not persevere, scripture tells us we will not inherit the kingdom. Doesn't mean any amount of works is the reason for the salvation but rather remaining in our faith. We do this with the help of the HS but we do not become robots. We desire to be faithful to Christ in how we live. It may not be likely but it's certainly possible to fall away, or we wouldn't have all the warnings about it in scripture

---

Jesus gave us the test questions and answers before the test. Maybe we should just listen to him?

Quote:

---

"When the Son of man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne. Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate them one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats, and he will place the sheep at his right hand, but the goats at the left. Then the King will say to those at his right hand, 'Come, O blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world; for I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me, I was naked and you clothed me, I was sick and you visited me, I was in prison and you came to me.' Then the righteous will answer him, 'Lord, when did we see thee hungry and feed thee, or thirsty and give thee drink? And when did we see thee a stranger and welcome thee, or naked and clothe thee? And when did we see thee sick or in prison and visit thee?' And the King will answer them, 'Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brethren, you did it to me.' Then he will say to those at his left hand, 'Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels; for I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink, I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not clothe me, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.' Then they also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see thee hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to thee?' Then he will answer them, 'Truly, I say to you, as you did it not to one of the least of these, you did it not to me.' And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life." (Matthew 25:31-46, RSV-CE)

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Quote:

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The problem is the assumption that there is such a thing as a moment of justification that is a point in time, forgiven for all time, and heaven is guaranteed.

---

The moment of faith...

Genesis 15:5 And He took him outside and said, "Now look toward the heavens, and count the stars, if you are able to count them." And He said to him, "So shall your descendants be." 6 Then he believed in the Lord; and He reckoned it to him as righteousness

John 7:38 He who believes in Me, as the Scripture said, 'From his innermost being will flow rivers of living water.'" 39 But this He spoke of the Spirit, whom those who believed in Him were to receive; for the Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.m as righteousness.

2 He said to them, "Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?" And they said to him, "No, we have not even heard whether there is a Holy Spirit."

Romans 5:1 Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,

Quote:

---

Christ says we will be justified or condemned by our words on the Day of Judgment.

---

This is a true statement. The question you must ask is justified in what sense?

Faith alone in Christ alone determines eternal life.
All believers and non-believers will be judged by their works, but not in reference to heaven and hell.

Quote:

---

The entire mechanistic approach of picking apart the work of salvation into some unknowable moment, separate from being made righteous, separate from appearing before the judgment seat of Christ, separate from union with God is wrong from the start.

---

It's a very knowable moment.

Do you or have you ever believed the following?
1. You are a sinner.
2. Jesus died for your sins.
3. Jesus rose from the dead.
and...
4. You have accepted this gift for yourself by faith.

You are not trusting in your denomination, baptism, religious commitment, faithful obedience, effort, knowledge, heritage, selfless giving, etc. These are all good things and will be rewarded for faithful obedience to Christ but save save no one.

Quote:

---

It isn't how the Apostles taught - the scriptures are not theological treatises, they're narrative and letters. People in the ancient world wrote treatises. If Romans were a theological treatise it would have been titled something like On Justification. St Paul was more than capable of writing such a thing. He did not, and we should not attempt to contort what he did write into that... or to construct our own version of On Justification and ascribe it to St Paul.

For example -- it is wrong to pluck a verse like Romans 4:5 out of context (which is a letter reconciling Jewish and non-Jewish Christians) and then burden the words he used like "work" with theological significance that wouldn't exist for centuries. If you read Romans in context, what he's saying is something more like - (beginning in Romans 3:27)

---

Romans in context (from Memory I may miss a few statements)
Intro Romans 1:1-16 Intro: Theme For I am not ashamed of the gospel for it is the power of God unto salvation to all who believe, for it in the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith.

1:17 through 3:23: All are guilty - No one is righteous. It doesn't matter if one is egregiouslous sinful or religiously self righteous.
Verb tense: for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.

3:24 I think through chapter 4: The gospel, justification is free.

Romans 5: results of Justification
Romans 6: gospel defended. Shall I live in sin first half, shall I commit acts of sin second half
Romans 7: why do I still struggle with sin as a believer?
Romans 8: work of the Spirit
Romans 9-10 ish: What about the Jews?
Romans 11 - End How then shall we live?

Romans is a very sequential book and the first part is all about justification, the need for justification and the results of justification.

do you believe you can leave the faith after believing?

BluHorseShu said:

---

DirtDiver said:

---

Quote:

---

Stated this is the other thread, but I know not everyone has time to go through 10 pages of that back and forth.

Based on a number of conversations with some of the Calvinist/reformed folks on here, as well as personal interactions,, it's got me thinking that if "faith alone" is true, they have probably reached the most literal conclusion of what that means.

So for those of a different Protestant tradition, I'd like to get your input: if you believe that God calls us and it's on us to respond to the call in the affirmative, are we not, at least in part, saved by a work? If choosing to accept or reject the gift God has given us is not a human work contributing to our salvation, what is it?

---

Read through these 3 passages and the consider the comments below...

Eph 2:8-9 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.

Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness, 6 just as David also speaks of the blessing on the man to whom God credits righteousness apart from works:
7 "Blessed are those whose lawless deeds have been forgiven,
And whose sins have been covered.
8 "Blessed is the man whose sin the Lord will not take into account."

1 Corinthians 15:13 But if there is no resurrection of the dead, not even Christ has been raised; 14 and if Christ has not been raised, then our preaching is vain, your faith also is vain. 15 Moreover we are even found to be false witnesses of God, because we testified against God that He raised Christ, whom He did not raise, if in fact the dead are not raised. 16 For if the dead are not raised, not even Christ has been raised; 17 and if Christ has not been raised, your faith is worthless; you are still in your sins.

I was challenged at one point with this question. Is your faith in Jesus or is your faith in your faith?

• The is a clear distinction about the contrast of faith and works in regards to the moment of justification (the point in time in which a person believes, receives the indwelling Holy Spirit, and is forgiven for all sins for all time, and heaven is guaranteed)
• All of the work for this has been accomplished by the work of God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit. (Eph 1)
• If this work had not been done by God/Jesus: no amount of works or faith has any value and we are dead in our sins.
• The opposite or antithesis of faith or believing is not works. The opposite of faith is to not believe or to reject the gift.
• If one wants to call believing in Jesus' death and resurrection for your sins a work, that's an option. The problem would be adding unnecessary confusion to the gospel and not making it clear. If the bible draws a distinction so should we.

Psalms 33
13The Lord looks from heaven;
He sees all the sons of men;
14 From His dwelling place He looks out
On all the inhabitants of the earth,
15 He who fashions the hearts of them all,
He who understands all their works.
16 The king is not saved by a mighty army;
A warrior is not delivered by great strength.
17 A horse is a false hope for victory;
Nor does it deliver anyone by its great strength.

---

Your faith is expressed not only in a one time acceptance of Christ. Otherwise someone could genuinely state and believe their faith in a moment and if the believer OSAS, then it's possible their desire to sin could return but they'd just believe that's ok. Faith is both an initial acceptance of God's grace and one's perseverance in it. If one does not persevere, scripture tells us we will not inherit the kingdom. Doesn't mean any amount of works is the reason for the salvation but rather remaining in our faith. We do this with the help of the HS but we do not become robots. We desire to be faithful to Christ in how we live. It may not be likely but it's certainly possible to fall away, or we wouldn't have all the warnings about it in scripture

---

Faith in Jesus is a one time event and a lifetime rollercoaster.

One time event... (Romans 1-4)
Romans 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.

Lifetime challenge... (Romans 11-End)
17 For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith; as it is written, "But the righteous man shall live by faith."


If we are honest with ourselves as believers there is still a desire to sin within us that we wrestle with. Paul wrestled with this as well...

Romans 7:21 I find then the principle that evil is present in me, the one who wants to do good. 22 For I joyfully concur with the law of God in the inner man, 23 but I see a different law in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin which is in my members. 24 Wretched man that I am! Who will set me free from the body of this death? 25 Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, on the one hand I myself with my mind am serving the law of God, but on the other, with my flesh the law of sin.


God saves believers through faith in Jesus. (no bragging on our part)
God desires all believers to be faithful. There are rewards for faithfulness and consequences for unfaithfulness (including early death). Heaven is not at stake because of...

God's promises.
What happens at the moment of justification to a person.
Proof text: Look how affirming Paul is of the Corinthian believers in chapter 1 of 1 Cor. Count how many times he affirms their identity. Then count how many sins Paul addresses in the book.
Heaven is never at stake but the loss of reward for not building on the foundation of Christ is. (chapter 3)

So your answer to "hey you took this verse out of context" is to take more verses out of context?

Even these verses you quote say nothing about being made righteous forever as a one-time event when you first believe.

Quote:

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All believers and non-believers will be judged by their works but not in reference to heaven and hell.

---

yeah, except every time judgment is spoken of in the scriptures, this is the only criteria given about eternal life. Yes, even by St Paul (e.g., "He will render to each one according to his works: to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life...")

Quote:

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Romans is a very sequential book and the first part is all about justification, the need for justification and the results of justification.

---

Romans is not about justification at all. Roman is about being Jewish and non-Jewish and how that pertains to salvation.

Which is my whole point about context. The book is not called On Justification. That is not a good title for it. That is not the focus of the book. It is called "A letter to the Romans" because it is a letter, written to a specific group of people at a specific time about a specific struggle. Every part of the book is comparing and contrasting Jewish and non-Jewish believers because the Jews had been expelled from Rome previously and were now returning, and there was contention between Jewish and non-Jewish Christians. That's why he addresses Jews and non-Jews and talks over and over again (even in the passage here) about how both relate to God in the Torah through faithfulness.

If you think Romans is about justification as an abstract concept, you've already missed the bus.

DirtDiver said:

---

Quote:

---

The problem is the assumption that there is such a thing as a moment of justification that is a point in time, forgiven for all time, and heaven is guaranteed.

---

The moment of faith...

Genesis 15:5 And He took him outside and said, "Now look toward the heavens, and count the stars, if you are able to count them." And He said to him, "So shall your descendants be." 6 Then he believed in the Lord; and He reckoned it to him as righteousness

John 7:38 He who believes in Me, as the Scripture said, 'From his innermost being will flow rivers of living water.'" 39 But this He spoke of the Spirit, whom those who believed in Him were to receive; for the Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.m as righteousness.

2 He said to them, "Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?" And they said to him, "No, we have not even heard whether there is a Holy Spirit."

Romans 5:1 Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,

Quote:

---

Christ says we will be justified or condemned by our words on the Day of Judgment.

---

This is a true statement. The question you must ask is justified in what sense?

Faith alone in Christ alone determines eternal life.
All believers and non-believers will be judged by their works, but not in reference to heaven and hell.

Quote:

---

The entire mechanistic approach of picking apart the work of salvation into some unknowable moment, separate from being made righteous, separate from appearing before the judgment seat of Christ, separate from union with God is wrong from the start.

---

It's a very knowable moment.

Do you or have you ever believed the following?
1. You are a sinner.
2. Jesus died for your sins.
3. Jesus rose from the dead.
and...
4. You have accepted this gift for yourself by faith.

You are not trusting in your denomination, baptism, religious commitment, faithful obedience, effort, knowledge, heritage, selfless giving, etc. These are all good things and will be rewarded for faithful obedience to Christ but save save no one.

Quote:

---

It isn't how the Apostles taught - the scriptures are not theological treatises, they're narrative and letters. People in the ancient world wrote treatises. If Romans were a theological treatise it would have been titled something like On Justification. St Paul was more than capable of writing such a thing. He did not, and we should not attempt to contort what he did write into that... or to construct our own version of On Justification and ascribe it to St Paul.

For example -- it is wrong to pluck a verse like Romans 4:5 out of context (which is a letter reconciling Jewish and non-Jewish Christians) and then burden the words he used like "work" with theological significance that wouldn't exist for centuries. If you read Romans in context, what he's saying is something more like - (beginning in Romans 3:27)

---

Romans in context (from Memory I may miss a few statements)
Intro Romans 1:1-16 Intro: Theme For I am not ashamed of the gospel for it is the power of God unto salvation to all who believe, for it in the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith.

1:17 through 3:23: All are guilty - No one is righteous. It doesn't matter if one is egregiouslous sinful or religiously self righteous.
Verb tense: for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.

3:24 I think through chapter 4: The gospel, justification is free.

Romans 5: results of Justification
Romans 6: gospel defended. Shall I live in sin first half, shall I commit acts of sin second half
Romans 7: why do I still struggle with sin as a believer?
Romans 8: work of the Spirit
Romans 9-10 ish: What about the Jews?
Romans 11 - End How then shall we live?

Romans is a very sequential book and the first part is all about justification, the need for justification and the results of justification.

---

Quote:

---

Faith alone in Christ alone determines eternal life.
All believers and non-believers will be judged by their works, but not in reference to heaven and hell.

---

What do you understand Jesus to be saying in Matthew 25:25-42 when he says he will separate the sheep from the goats based on what they have or have not done and the goats will be sent to the eternal fire prepared for his devils and his angels?