Right. There's no magic number or score.

Zobel said:

---

Right. There's no magic number or score.

---

Agree. It is a process. A constant renewal of the mind centered on Christ. And if Christians realized that there would be a lot less judging of others and more concentration on one's self.

dermdoc said:

---

Zobel said:

---

Right. There's no magic number or score.

---

Agree. It is a process. A constant renewal of the mind centered on Christ. And if Christians realized that there would be a lot less judging of others and more concentration on one's self.

---

I just want to say that I agree with all of that and like your comparison of ontological vs juridical. I think that is spot on and entirely consistent with scripture and the tradition of the church.

But it seems like all of that mitigates against the idea of a salvation that can't be "lost."

FTACo88-FDT24dad said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

Zobel said:

---

Right. There's no magic number or score.

---

Agree. It is a process. A constant renewal of the mind centered on Christ. And if Christians realized that there would be a lot less judging of others and more concentration on one's self.

---

I just want to say that I agree with all of that and like your comparison of ontological vs juridical. I think that is spot on and entirely consistent with scripture and the tradition of the church.

But it seems like all of that mitigates against the idea of a salvation that can't be "lost."

---

Scripture also says God desires all men to be saved. Can man's free will beat God's desires?

I know CS Lewis thought so.

ramblin_ag02 said:

---

Quote:

---

Scripture also says God desires all men to be saved. Can man's free will beat God's desires?

---

If man's will can't beat God's desires, then man doesn't have free will. So yes, man's will beat's God's desires. Otherwise you end up in a situation where God must be very indifferent to serial killers, because Him wanting them to do otherwise would override their free will and prevent it.

Just for clarity, that does not apply to God's Will. God's Will is the fundamental force of reality, and nothing can withstand it. Our free will only exists due to God giving us an inferior likeness of His Will and giving us the metaphysical elbow room to exercise it.

---

I agree. Without free will there is no love. And God is love.

dermdoc said:

---

FTACo88-FDT24dad said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

Zobel said:

---

Right. There's no magic number or score.

---

Agree. It is a process. A constant renewal of the mind centered on Christ. And if Christians realized that there would be a lot less judging of others and more concentration on one's self.

---

I just want to say that I agree with all of that and like your comparison of ontological vs juridical. I think that is spot on and entirely consistent with scripture and the tradition of the church.

But it seems like all of that mitigates against the idea of a salvation that can't be "lost."

---

Scripture also says God desires all men to be saved. Can man's free will beat God's desires?

I know CS Lewis thought so.

---

Derm, it's a great question. Forgive me if any of this seems pedantic. Not my intent.

Jesus tells us unambiguously that the two greatest commandments are love of God and love of neighbor. How do we love God? By surrendering to his love for us. In our broken world, we needed a savior in order to be truly free to choose. Man's free will was a gift from our creator before the fall and after the fall our creator once again gives us a free gift of salvation. In our broken world, true freedom is not radical autonomy but being free from the effects of sin. This is where God's grace steps in and makes it possible for us to once again be free to choose him. God gives us that initial gift that puts us back in a right relationship with him and continues to offer us the grace we need to stay in a right relationship with him, but thereafter we must choose, just as Adam and Eve, who were not yet living with the effects of sin, were free to choose.

Free will is the precondition for authentic agape love, which is the love God is, but also the love God desires from us. Yes, God desires that we all be saved because God loves us, but he doesn't violate the one thing absolutely necessary for our love for him to be authentic: our free will. We can choose to not love God and neighbor.

This priest says it pretty well:

https://www.facebook.com/share/r/XNxYnUvz4vAUDw2W/?mibextid=UalRPS

ramblin_ag02 said:

---

Quote:

---

Scripture also says God desires all men to be saved. Can man's free will beat God's desires?

---

If man's will can't beat God's desires, then man doesn't have free will. So yes, man's will beats God's desires. Otherwise you end up in a situation where God must be at the very least indifferent to serial killers, because Him wanting them to do otherwise would override their free will and prevent it.

Just for clarity, that does not apply to God's Will. God's Will is the fundamental force of reality, and nothing can withstand it. Our free will only exists due to God giving us an inferior likeness of His Will and giving us the metaphysical elbow room to exercise it.

---

HARRUMPH!

FTACo88-FDT24dad said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

FTACo88-FDT24dad said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

Zobel said:

---

Right. There's no magic number or score.

---

Agree. It is a process. A constant renewal of the mind centered on Christ. And if Christians realized that there would be a lot less judging of others and more concentration on one's self.

---

I just want to say that I agree with all of that and like your comparison of ontological vs juridical. I think that is spot on and entirely consistent with scripture and the tradition of the church.

But it seems like all of that mitigates against the idea of a salvation that can't be "lost."

---

Scripture also says God desires all men to be saved. Can man's free will beat God's desires?

I know CS Lewis thought so.

---

Derm, it's a great question. Forgive me if any of this seems pedantic. Not my intent.

Jesus tells us unambiguously that the two greatest commandments are love of God and love of neighbor. How do we love God? By surrendering to his love for us. In our broken world, we needed a savior in order to be truly free to choose. Man's free will was a gift from our creator before the fall and after the fall our creator once again gives us a free gift of salvation. In our broken world, true freedom is not radical autonomy but being free from the effects of sin. This is where God's grace steps in and makes it possible for us to once again be free to choose him. God gives us that initial gift that puts us back in a right relationship with him and continues to offer us the grace we need to stay in a right relationship with him, but thereafter we must choose, just as Adam and Eve, who were not yet living with the effects of sin, were free to choose.

Free will is the precondition for authentic agape love, which is the love God is, but also the love God desires from us. Yes, God desires that we all be saved because God loves us, but he doesn't violate the one thing absolutely necessary for our love for him to be authentic: our free will. We can choose to not love God and neighbor.

This priest says it pretty well:

https://www.facebook.com/share/r/XNxYnUvz4vAUDw2W/?mibextid=UalRPS

---

I agree with you. And I believe the entirety of Scripture confirms
free will.

Quo Vadis? said:

---

Zobel said:

---

No my Church is the Orthodox Church.

and of course I agree with the words of Christ. I disagree with you on what the words "come to the Father" and "by me" mean.

---

You are in the body of Christ but we do not grant you the rank of Catholic

---

I think the meme fits better in reverse. The council is the 4 patriarchs and Anakin is Rome.

Yessss

Quote:

---

Hey, that's my meme. You can't turn my own meme against me

---

Quo Vadis? said:

---

Hey, that's my meme. You can't turn my own meme against me

---

I've always believed in free will, pi is not the only irrational thing in the universe.
Back to the pope, I wonder if he thinks the military cult of Mithras gets to Heavan?


Edit to add that the above verse is by Rudyard Kipling.

Ecumenicalism is antiChrist. There is one way, one truth, and one life (Jesus Christ). John 14:6

Jim Hogg is angry said:

---

Ecumenicalism is antiChrist. There is one way, one truth, and one life (Jesus Christ). John 14:6

---

So you're from the People's Front of Judea then?

dermdoc said:

---

Zobel said:

---

Right. There's no magic number or score.

---

Agree. It is a process. A constant renewal of the mind centered on Christ. And if Christians realized that there would be a lot less judging of others and more concentration on one's self.

---

I absolutely agree, and I'd add something even more specific....if we spent more time thinking about others in terms of charity (how can we help someone, how can we make someone's day, support) instead of trying to make ourselves feel better because we only view them through a lens of what they're doing wrong or how bad they act, etc, I think we'd feel a great deal less anxiety.

The greatest commandment is Love and I try every day to remind myself of 2 things, the gratitude I have for all the blessings God has given me, and how can I be of service to those around me (family, friends, coworkers). If I focus on charity, there's not much time left o judge others at all

dermdoc said:

---

FTACo88-FDT24dad said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

Zobel said:

---

Right. There's no magic number or score.

---

Agree. It is a process. A constant renewal of the mind centered on Christ. And if Christians realized that there would be a lot less judging of others and more concentration on one's self.

---

I just want to say that I agree with all of that and like your comparison of ontological vs juridical. I think that is spot on and entirely consistent with scripture and the tradition of the church.

But it seems like all of that mitigates against the idea of a salvation that can't be "lost."

---

Scripture also says God desires all men to be saved. Can man's free will beat God's desires?

I know CS Lewis thought so.

---

Thinking about your first statement that God desires all men to be saved got me wondering if you think someone who lives a life of Christian charity by living a life full of all those things that Jesus says will be the criteria by which we will be judged in Matthew 25 (i.e. the way, the truth and the life) but doesn't even know the name of Jesus and has never "invited Jesus into his heart as his personal lord and savior" will be a sheep or a goat on the last day?

Curious what others think as well.

FTACo88-FDT24dad said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

FTACo88-FDT24dad said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

Zobel said:

---

Right. There's no magic number or score.

---

Agree. It is a process. A constant renewal of the mind centered on Christ. And if Christians realized that there would be a lot less judging of others and more concentration on one's self.

---

I just want to say that I agree with all of that and like your comparison of ontological vs juridical. I think that is spot on and entirely consistent with scripture and the tradition of the church.

But it seems like all of that mitigates against the idea of a salvation that can't be "lost."

---

Scripture also says God desires all men to be saved. Can man's free will beat God's desires?

I know CS Lewis thought so.

---

Thinking about your first statement that God desires all men to be saved got me wondering if you think someone who lives a life of Christian charity by living a life full of all those things that Jesus says will be the criteria by which we will be judged in Matthew 25 (i.e. the way, the truth and the life) but doesn't even know the name of Jesus and has never "invited Jesus into his heart as his personal lord and savior" will be a sheep or a goat on the last day?

Curious what others think as well.

---

I have no idea. Will leave that up to God.

FTACo88-FDT24dad said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

FTACo88-FDT24dad said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

Zobel said:

---

Right. There's no magic number or score.

---

Agree. It is a process. A constant renewal of the mind centered on Christ. And if Christians realized that there would be a lot less judging of others and more concentration on one's self.

---

I just want to say that I agree with all of that and like your comparison of ontological vs juridical. I think that is spot on and entirely consistent with scripture and the tradition of the church.

But it seems like all of that mitigates against the idea of a salvation that can't be "lost."

---

Scripture also says God desires all men to be saved. Can man's free will beat God's desires?

I know CS Lewis thought so.

---

Thinking about your first statement that God desires all men to be saved got me wondering if you think someone who lives a life of Christian charity by living a life full of all those things that Jesus says will be the criteria by which we will be judged in Matthew 25 (i.e. the way, the truth and the life) but doesn't even know the name of Jesus and has never "invited Jesus into his heart as his personal lord and savior" will be a sheep or a goat on the last day?

Curious what others think as well.

---

I hope I've made my view on that crystal clear. Those are the sheep. The Matthew 25 passage specifically mentions people from "all the nations". I see no reason to think that means "all the nations with Christians in them", and therefore some of the sheep will be people from "all the nations" that aren't Christian