All religions lead to God - Pope Francis

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Bighunter43
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In reply to PabloSerna • 11:29a, 9/28/24
AG
PabloSerna said:
As Christians we agree on that because of what Jesus taught the Apostles and disciples that they carried on after Jesus ascended into heaven wouldn't you agree? Do you also agree that this "way" became a church?



I believe a church is a body of believers with Christ as the head. It is a place of corporate worship to Him. But, being a member, going to church, being baptized as an infant, etc. will not be sufficient in the least to save you! Accepting Christ as your Savior to forgive you of your sins is the only way to the Father. One could never step inside a church his entire life…and still be saved!
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Zobel
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In reply to Bighunter43 • 12:16p, 9/28/24
AG
Is there one body of Christ or many? So is it a body or the body?

Also "Accepting Christ as your Savior to forgive you of your sins is the only way to the Father" is not in the scriptures. Thats not what it says.
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Bighunter43
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In reply to Zobel • 12:44p, 9/28/24
AG
Zobel said:
The problem is the mechanistic and exclusive approach.

Christ says He is the only path to the Father. You're saying that "coming to the Father" means salvation. Does it? Is it as simple as that?

You're also saying that coming to the Father must be through the gospel, through accepting Christ as savior, presumably verbal confession.

What the teaching of the Church is that the Church has the fullness of Truth, it is the way with the promises and so forth as I said. But that does not mean that the Spirit of Christ cannot act outside, give grace, and draw people to Himself and the Father - even if they don't know him as Jesus Christ. We know that because He did that in the OT - He drew men to Him and therefore to the Father who knew Him as the Angel of the Lord, the Word of the Lord, but not as Jesus Christ. As He said, Abraham saw my day and rejoiced.

Abraham didn't have "the gospel" but he WAS faithful. That is what saves - faithfulness to God. And a person can be faithful to God even without knowing Him, as St Paul pointed out, which is what Ramblin said. That's why people continually identified Christ in the NT - they knew Him, even if they didn't know Him as Jesus. They recognized Him because they were His sheep.

The message here is simply that there may be people who are living God-pleasing lives in ignorance, even perhaps believing they are worshipping Allah or some other God. He is merciful and gives grace to all, and is the good and perfect Judge.

We who have the scriptures and the teaching of the Apostles have a much greater burden, because we have received more - just as St Paul says in Romans. We will be judged accordingly, by what we have done.

That does NOT mean worshipping Allah or any other false god or demon is salvific. It isn't and can't be.


Some of that I would agree with….you cannot use anything in the Old Testament, Abraham's faith as an example, to justify salvation once Christ's sacrifice on the cross took place. That was the old covenant…..Jesus' death and resurrection is the new covenant that is applicable since that time…hence the tearing of the temple veil in two.
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Bighunter43
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In reply to Zobel • 12:47p, 9/28/24
AG
Zobel said:
Is there one body of Christ or many? So is it a body or the body?

Also "Accepting Christ as your Savior to forgive you of your sins is the only way to the Father" is not in the scriptures. Thats not what it says.


It's only what the entire New Testament is about. Believer's in Christ constitute "the church"….so it's certainly NOT a particular church. If you accept Christ and reach your eternal reward…you aren't going to be asked what church you were a member of.
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Quo Vadis?
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In reply to PabloSerna • 1:09p, 9/28/24
PabloSerna said:
Just so I understand, in your understanding there is no salvation outside the church?


I wonder what that sounds like in Latin
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Zobel
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In reply to Bighunter43 • 1:14p, 9/28/24
AG

Quote:
Some of that I would agree with….you cannot use anything in the Old Testament, Abraham's faith as an example, to justify salvation once Christ's sacrifice on the cross took place. That was the old covenant…..Jesus' death and resurrection is the new covenant that is applicable since that time…hence the tearing of the temple veil in two.
That's not what St Paul or St James say. They both say Abraham was justified, made righteous, by faith. The same Word that appeared to Abraham and spoke with him and ate with him was the Word that took on flesh and became Man, that St John beheld.

Abraham had faith in Christ, and was saved by that faith, because he was faithful.

Abraham was saved by Christ through the Incarnation, Cross, and Resurrection.

Those two statements are not saying different things.

None of the Apostles changed religions or faiths in their lives, including St Paul.
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Zobel
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In reply to Bighunter43 • 1:21p, 9/28/24
AG

Quote:
It's only what the entire New Testament is about. Believer's in Christ constitute "the church"….so it's certainly NOT a particular church. If you accept Christ and reach your eternal reward…you aren't going to be asked what church you were a member of.
No, it is what you say it is about, even though that isn't actually what the scriptures say. You're not defending these points with scripture because they're not in the scripture.

There is no separate word for belief and faith in the scriptures. Those who are faithful to Christ constitute the assembly (which is what ecclesia, church, means). They do so when the assembly is assembled. It is not an abstract thing. The words have meaning.

There is no "which church" any more than you can say "which Body of Christ". There is only one body - the scriptures say so - "there is one Body and one Spirit...one Lord, one Faith, one Baptism, one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all" and also "because there is one bread, we who are many are one Body, for we all partake of the one bread" and also "for just as the body is one and has many members, and all the members of the body, though many, are one body, so it is with Christ. For in one Spirit we were all baptized into one body -- Jews or Greeks, slaves or free -- and all were made to drink of one Spirit...there are many parts, yet one body..." and another place "His Body, that is, the Church"

There is only one Body, one Church, because there is one Lord, Faith, Baptism, God, Spirit, bread. That's what the scriptures say.
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Bighunter43
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In reply to Zobel • 1:22p, 9/28/24
AG
I don't think anyone is arguing that Abraham was saved by his faith….of course he was, as were countless others in the Old Testament. However, with the blood of Jesus…we are under the new covenant and the old covenant found in the OT no longer implies to all since Christ's death and resurrection. What would be the point of Christ's death and resurrection if that OT covenant was still in place?? Salvation only comes through Christ…
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Zobel
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In reply to Bighunter43 • 1:30p, 9/28/24
AG
There are not multiple salvations. If Abraham was saved by his faith he is truly saved.

You are asking the right question now and the answer is in the Incarnation. His Death and Resurrection are for the salvation of all mankind, not for the salvation of each man, if that makes sense.

You need to start with the Incarnation - it is important that it isn't on your list.

In the Incarnation the divine nature was joined to the nature of mankind without change - Christ became Man without change, He did not lose any part of His divinity with all of the powers and works that belong to divinity, but added to it the nature of Man, with all of the powers and potentialities proper to Man. Fully God, Fully Man. It is important that the symbol of faith does not say He became "a man" but Man, not a particular man but human - in the original it is not became "aner" a man but became "anthropos" - enanthroposanta.

In this joining of the Divine with the created, God and Mankind's natures become joined forever in the Person of Christ. And, through His voluntary death and self-offering He defeated death - He trampled down death by death - and through that broke the hold of death on all Mankind.

Abraham was saved by faithfulness, as all men are - each of us will be judged by what we have done, good or bad, faithful or faithless.

All mankind was saved through the Incarnation, Death, and Resurrection of Christ, and all will be raised on the last day for that Judgment.
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Bighunter43
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1:45p, 9/28/24
AG
Any believer in Christ is part of His church!! And the entire NT points towards salvation through Christ alone!
Romans 10:9 "Salvation is received by faith when one confesses Jesus Christ and believes that God raised him from the dead!"
Of course John 3:16….along with John 14:6…as well as many others. Ephesians 1:7-8….about forgiveness from our sins through Christ. There is no "one" particular church that one needs to be a "member" of in order to be saved….one simply needs to be a "believer". (Baptism is symbolic in nature that once one becomes a Christian that they should do as a testament to their faith…..any baptism prior to that is simply a very public bath.). If you are referring to Christ's coming to earth, death and resurrection as the Incarnation….yes it's available to all, yet the choice to become saved and a member of the body of Christ is still an individual choice and eternal damnation for those who reject Him is the reality! Believer's will be raised, but not all.
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Zobel
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In reply to Bighunter43 • 1:54p, 9/28/24
AG
That's not what the scriptures say. I'm sorry but your theology is not in line with the scriptures. You're quoting scripture and saying things that are not there. Quote the words. Actual words, not what you pastor taught you. It's not there.

The scriptures do not say believers are part of the church. They say there is one church because there is one faith and bread and baptism. That means different faith, different baptism, different church. No baptism no church. No bread, or different bread, different church. There is only one church that is the body of Christ, so different church means not united to Christ. That is what it literally says - no interpretive layer.
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Bighunter43
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In reply to Zobel • 2:03p, 9/28/24
AG
Are you referring to the Catholic Church as THE church and the only church?? Everything I have mentioned is scriptural…are you not believing the actual words of Christ himself in John 14:6??? And I will quote it for you…"KJV…"I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father but by me!!" (That's about as plain as it gets)…it's extremely simple…
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Zobel
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In reply to Bighunter43 • 2:08p, 9/28/24
AG
No my Church is the Orthodox Church.

and of course I agree with the words of Christ. I disagree with you on what the words "come to the Father" and "by me" mean.
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Bighunter43
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In reply to Zobel • 2:12p, 9/28/24
AG
So what does it mean then?
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Zobel
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In reply to Bighunter43 • 2:32p, 9/28/24
AG
Weve been talking about it.

Coming to the Father is pretty broad. I think we could talk about salvation there but also knowledge of God, who God is. Christ is the image of the Father so coming to knowledge is through Christ, He reveals the Father.

And He is the way and the truth and the life. But how we participate in that way, truth, and life, can be many ways. That's why St Paul says the nations can be a way (which is what Torah means) into themselves.

But "accepting Jesus Christ" is a modern idea that isn't in the scriptures. A lot of what you're talking about are additions to the scripture.
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Bighunter43
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In reply to Zobel • 3:01p, 9/28/24
AG
Zobel said:
Weve been talking about it.

Coming to the Father is pretty broad. I think we could talk about salvation there but also knowledge of God, who God is. Christ is the image of the Father so coming to knowledge is through Christ, He reveals the Father.

And He is the way and the truth and the life. But how we participate in that way, truth, and life, can be many ways. That's why St Paul says the nations can be a way (which is what Torah means) into themselves.

But "accepting Jesus Christ" is a modern idea that isn't in the scriptures. A lot of what you're talking about are additions to the scripture.


Did Paul not write this in Romans on how to achieve salvation!
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Zobel
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In reply to Bighunter43 • 3:21p, 9/28/24
AG
Yes he did. He wrote a whole book with that in it that talks about salvation a great deal - not just that verse, and it just that book. He also says you can confess and fall away. He writes about walking in faithfulness and what that looks like. He talks about the Torah and about baptism and the Eucharist.

The Lord says many will say Lord Lord and be told to depart because He never knew them.

You can't proof text an entire structure from one scripture taken out of context. It doesn't work like that.
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747Ag
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In reply to Quo Vadis? • 3:24p, 9/28/24
AG
Quo Vadis? said:
PabloSerna said:
Just so I understand, in your understanding there is no salvation outside the church?


I wonder what that sounds like in Latin

I got ya, fam

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Quo Vadis?
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In reply to 747Ag • 3:38p, 9/28/24
747Ag said:
Quo Vadis? said:
PabloSerna said:
Just so I understand, in your understanding there is no salvation outside the church?


I wonder what that sounds like in Latin

I got ya, fam




Thought I had seen that somewhere before
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Bighunter43
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3:47p, 9/28/24
AG
So I quote the actual words (again) and now it's taken out of context….so let's add John 1:12-13…..and…Ephesians 1:13-14….its the central theme of the entire New Testament! It's the reason Christ came…it's the reason for the Great Commission!!
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Zobel
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In reply to Bighunter43 • 6:13p, 9/28/24
AG
It says if you confess you will be saved. It does not say that people who do not confess may not be saved. So, no, it does not prove your point.

It also does not say that if you confess you will be saved no matter what, or that mere confession one time will save you. That is directly contradicted in the NT, including in the words of the Lord himself.

Nowhere in the NT does it say that only Christians will be saved.

Nowhere in the NT does it ever say a one time confession is what you will be judged by.

Nowhere does it use the language that "accepting Jesus Christ" is what saves you or what you are judged by.


We have the same scriptures in the NT. I don't disagree with the scripture. I disagree with your interpretation of it. We can't pick and choose, we have to take it all. And you are ignoring a great deal of it - especially the part about what constitutes the assembly of God and why there is only One.
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Zobel
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In reply to Bighunter43 • 6:16p, 9/28/24
AG
It's also not the reason for the great commission. Christ came to Israel as Israel was the vehicle used to save all nations. They were created to save the world. But the rest of the world was under dominion of the demons and was unclean and cut off from God. The once for all atonement at the cross subjected all nations to their God, bringing in the change that allowed people like Cornelius the centurion to draw near - people like you and me.

The gospel was to be preached to all nations ie nations other than Israel. The gospel is that the king came and had victory, and that he is returning to judge the living and the dead. That's why the response is what must I do to be saved (on that day of judgment)?
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FTACo88-FDT24dad
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In reply to Zobel • 5:34p, 9/29/24
AG
Zobel said:
It's also not the reason for the great commission. Christ came to Israel as Israel was the vehicle used to save all nations. They were created to save the world. But the rest of the world was under dominion of the demons and was unclean and cut off from God. The once for all atonement at the cross subjected all nations to their God, bringing in the change that allowed people like Cornelius the centurion to draw near - people like you and me.

The gospel was to be preached to all nations ie nations other than Israel. The gospel is that the king came and had victory, and that he is returning to judge the living and the dead. That's why the response is what must I do to be saved (on that day of judgment)?


Let's go with the actual words Christ to see what "the way, the truth and the life" and "by me" might mean:

" "When the Son of man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne. Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate them one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats, and he will place the sheep at his right hand, but the goats at the left. Then the King will say to those at his right hand, 'Come, O blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world; for I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me, I was naked and you clothed me, I was sick and you visited me, I was in prison and you came to me.' Then the righteous will answer him, 'Lord, when did we see thee hungry and feed thee, or thirsty and give thee drink? And when did we see thee a stranger and welcome thee, or naked and clothe thee? And when did we see thee sick or in prison and visit thee?' And the King will answer them, 'Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brethren, you did it to me.' Then he will say to those at his left hand, 'Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels; for I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink, I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not clothe me, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.' Then they also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see thee hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to thee?' Then he will answer them, 'Truly, I say to you, as you did it not to one of the least of these, you did it not to me.' And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life." (Matthew 25:31-46, RSV)"
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Zobel
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In reply to FTACo88-FDT24dad • 6:08p, 9/29/24
AG
Love it, yes. And in it we see underlying the Incarnation - the least of these are His brethren, with a shared nature.
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FTACo88-FDT24dad
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In reply to Zobel • 7:30p, 9/29/24
AG
Zobel said:
Love it, yes. And in it we see underlying the Incarnation - the least of these are His brethren, with a shared nature.


Your focus on the Incarnation and its meaning and implications are exactly what I/we all need to think and pray about much more than we tend to do. It's all wrapped up in theosis as well. Please keep bringing the Incarnation into these discussions. We can all benefit from it.

For me, the paradigm is theosis, theosis, theosis. Yes, we are saved from our sins, but we are saved from our sins for theosis. The Incarnation is the perfection of theosis. Sure, we can never achieve or realize that perfection in theosis, but we can approach it asymptotically for all eternity, and it seems to me that is what this is all about.
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Captain Pablo
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8:21p, 9/29/24
AG
Just watching

This thread is classic knowing verses vs knowing scripture

Happens every time

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PabloSerna
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In reply to Captain Pablo • 10:25p, 9/29/24
AG
Can we all agree that Zobel is a treasure. I did a deep dive on the incarnation today and saw some things I had taken for granted in a new light.
“Falsehood flies and the truth comes limping after it” -Jonathan Swift, 1710
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dermdoc
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In reply to Zobel • 7:35a, 9/30/24
AG
Zobel said:
It's also not the reason for the great commission. Christ came to Israel as Israel was the vehicle used to save all nations. They were created to save the world. But the rest of the world was under dominion of the demons and was unclean and cut off from God. The once for all atonement at the cross subjected all nations to their God, bringing in the change that allowed people like Cornelius the centurion to draw near - people like you and me.

The gospel was to be preached to all nations ie nations other than Israel. The gospel is that the king came and had victory, and that he is returning to judge the living and the dead. That's why the response is what must I do to be saved (on that day of judgment)?
Acts 16 31

Believe in the Lord Jesus and you will be saved, you and your household.

Seems pretty clear.
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Captain Pablo
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In reply to PabloSerna • 7:43a, 9/30/24
AG
PabloSerna said:
Can we all agree that Zobel is a treasure. I did a deep dive on the incarnation today and saw some things I had taken for granted in a new light.


Agreed
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Captain Pablo
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In reply to FTACo88-FDT24dad • 8:19a, 9/30/24
AG
FTACo88-FDT24dad said:
Zobel said:
Love it, yes. And in it we see underlying the Incarnation - the least of these are His brethren, with a shared nature.


Your focus on the Incarnation and its meaning and implications are exactly what I/we all need to think and pray about much more than we tend to do. It's all wrapped up in theosis as well. Please keep bringing the Incarnation into these discussions. We can all benefit from it.

For me, the paradigm is theosis, theosis, theosis. Yes, we are saved from our sins, but we are saved from our sins for theosis. The Incarnation is the perfection of theosis. Sure, we can never achieve or realize that perfection in theosis, but we can approach it asymptotically for all eternity, and it seems to me that is what this is all about.


What do you mean by " theosis is the perfection of incarnation"? Why does the incarnation need perfecting by human beings achieving god-like (or saintly?) qualities?

Doesn't the incarnation stand sufficiently on its own? Aren't we talking about two different things? I mean, other than in a "the reverse is also true" sense?
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Zobel
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In reply to dermdoc • 9:02a, 9/30/24
AG
Just for fun I wanted to read that, and there is something neat here. "Believe" is an imperative, grammar for command. There are three ways to write imperatives in Greek, one is in the present tense, one is the aorist tense, and the last is the perfect. For the first two, one is telling someone to do a thing (beginning to end) and the other is to do a thing (ongoing). Like - "about face" vs "march" One is a whole action viewed as done (aorist) the other is an ongoing action (present).

In this verse "believe" is Pisteuo - the verb of the word for belief / faith / trust / acceptance / have confidence in (pistis). I think "faith" most often captures the meaning of the noun, but we don't use "faith" as a verb so you get these weird decisions made. Like "Your faith has saved you" is the same word but no one would translate that as "your belief has saved you". On the other hand we see "all things are possible for him who believes" where the word is the present active tense of the same word - we could equally write that as "all things are possible to the one who is faithful".

So, they're answering "how can I be saved?" with a single command - "believe" or "be faithful" - viewed as a complete event. What is that complete event? Here we have no simple answer to our conundrum. Our baptist friends will say "the complete even is the one time acceptance of Christ as Lord" and the ancient Christians will say "that complete event is living faithfully". Obviously I view this as the latter, because that is consistent with the scriptures and in many cases the one time event view is actually contradicted in scripture.
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FTACo88-FDT24dad
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In reply to Captain Pablo • 9:53a, 9/30/24
AG
Captain Pablo said:
FTACo88-FDT24dad said:
Zobel said:
Love it, yes. And in it we see underlying the Incarnation - the least of these are His brethren, with a shared nature.


Your focus on the Incarnation and its meaning and implications are exactly what I/we all need to think and pray about much more than we tend to do. It's all wrapped up in theosis as well. Please keep bringing the Incarnation into these discussions. We can all benefit from it.

For me, the paradigm is theosis, theosis, theosis. Yes, we are saved from our sins, but we are saved from our sins for theosis. The Incarnation is the perfection of theosis. Sure, we can never achieve or realize that perfection in theosis, but we can approach it asymptotically for all eternity, and it seems to me that is what this is all about.


What do you mean by " theosis is the perfection of incarnation"? Why does the incarnation need perfecting by human beings achieving god-like (or saintly?) qualities?

Doesn't the incarnation stand sufficiently on its own? Aren't we talking about two different things? I mean, other than in a "the reverse is also true" sense?
Poor word choice on my part. The Incarnation is what perfect theosis (divinization of humanity) looks like. We will never arrive at perfect theosis but we will spend eternity asymptotically approaching that perfection as we grow ever closer to God in the beatific vision.

Obviously theosis doesn't apply to Jesus Christ like it does to us. Jesus the god-man was, is at this moment, and will forever be the Incarnation. His humanity was perfectly, albeit mysteriously united to his divinity from the moment of his conception in the blessed Virgin Mary's womb. There was no process of becoming divinized. So my poor description was inadequate to describe what I was trying to convey. Jesus is the perfect divinization of human nature.
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dermdoc
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In reply to Zobel • 11:06a, 9/30/24
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Zobel said:
Just for fun I wanted to read that, and there is something neat here. "Believe" is an imperative, grammar for command. There are three ways to write imperatives in Greek, one is in the present tense, one is the aorist tense, and the last is the perfect. For the first two, one is telling someone to do a thing (beginning to end) and the other is to do a thing (ongoing). Like - "about face" vs "march" One is a whole action viewed as done (aorist) the other is an ongoing action (present).

In this verse "believe" is Pisteuo - the verb of the word for belief / faith / trust / acceptance / have confidence in (pistis). I think "faith" most often captures the meaning of the noun, but we don't use "faith" as a verb so you get these weird decisions made. Like "Your faith has saved you" is the same word but no one would translate that as "your belief has saved you". On the other hand we see "all things are possible for him who believes" where the word is the present active tense of the same word - we could equally write that as "all things are possible to the one who is faithful".

So, they're answering "how can I be saved?" with a single command - "believe" or "be faithful" - viewed as a complete event. What is that complete event? Here we have no simple answer to our conundrum. Our baptist friends will say "the complete even is the one time acceptance of Christ as Lord" and the ancient Christians will say "that complete event is living faithfully". Obviously I view this as the latter, because that is consistent with the scriptures and in many cases the one time event view is actually contradicted in scripture.
I believe that all who put their faith in Jesus Christ are saved. I personally like to do good "works" and think there are eternal rewards given for them but I do not think one can lose their salvation.
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In reply to dermdoc • 11:21a, 9/30/24
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How can you lose what you don't have? No one has been made perfect yet. And the scriptures say people who are part of the church and have taken the Eucharist can fall away.

This whole discussion pivots on a definition of salvation that is not scriptural.
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In reply to Zobel • 11:42a, 9/30/24
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Zobel said:
How can you lose what you don't have? No one has been made perfect yet. And the scriptures say people who are part of the church and have taken the Eucharist can fall away.

This whole discussion pivots on a definition of salvation that is not scriptural.
I believe you are saying, and I agree with, that after we put our faith in Christ and receive God's free grace we are filled with the Holy Spirit and become more Christ like. And I agree with that.

I do not agree with a certain number or type of works being necessary for salvation and believe Scripture is clear on that.

And I have come to believe that salvation is ontological and not judicial.
No material on this site is intended to be a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis or treatment. See full Medical Disclaimer.
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