Read the first few sentences to get the point.

Quote:

---

Lots of people think that . . .you can't blame tax policy for inequality with all the offshoring that has occurred and many blue collar industries ranging from steel to coal to autos being gutted by foreign competition.

---

And then ask yourself it was a bad thing we let those industries die to reinvest in other higher growth, wealth creating industries

And then ask yourself if the victims of those industries dying have been given a chance to participate in the other stuff making people rich.

Quote:

---

And then ask yourself it was a bad thing we let those industries die to reinvest in other higher growth, wealth creating industries

And then ask yourself if the victims of those industries dying have been given a chance to participate in the other stuff making people rich.

---

I'll be honest, I don't have any idea what point you're trying to make.

Your questions are fraught with bad assumptions. You mentioned steel. Here is a chart of US steel production over the last 50 years or so. It's largely flat from 1980 on.


Here is the number of people employed in US steel manufacturing from 1990 on (best data I can find). It was 650,000 at its peak in 1953 - the decline began well before Reagan or any of the other things you mentioned.


And here is the explanation for the two:



Much like the example I gave with farm labor and tractors, the value of a blue collar steelworker dropped because the work became much, much, much more productive. We needed fewer people, and the people we needed had the skills required, and participated in the increase. Accordingly, the demand for the skills and abilities of the median and 20th percentile is reduced relative to the demand for the skills and abilities of the 95th percentile.

The problem is you look at that and say, well the graph diverges and that is bad. But in real terms this means that everyone's income increased from the period on the chart, but the 20th percentile was largely flat.

Nobody got poorer. Arguably everyone in fact got much wealthier - the standard of living for the 20th percentile in 2020 is unimaginable compared to the same group in 1970.

Nobody got richer at anyone's expense.. its just that the skills and labor of some are worth the same in real terms as they were before, but the skills and labors of others are worth more. As productivity increases, that will continue to rise.

So for one thing, no industries 'died'. it's simply not true. We still make steel. We make more today than we did in 1953 at labor peak - 36 million tons then vs around 90 million tons now. That's about 2/3 of our peak production in 1969 at 141 million tons... but we are in some cases ten times more efficient.

And is it bad for the market to create growth? No. Because if we had not the standard of living and technology gains I mentioned would not exist. These things benefit everyone.

Victims of industries dying is simply an untrue narrative based on false assumptions.

I still don't see what any of this has to do with
a) the US has a spending problem
b) it is bad that some people are richer than others
c) we should tax the wealthy

94chem said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

barbacoa taco said:

---

Windy City Ag said:

---

Quote:

---

Before you can say well these people should pay more taxes or they won the parental lottery you need to first establish
a) how that is bad for society if it even is
And
b) how the proposed change is better

---

Well, I think we know:

a) We have a massive and growing deficit and national debt

b) We have two political parties totally unwilling to reign in spending.

c) We know that wealth is more concentrated in fewer hands today versus most of the latter half of the 20th Century by mostly every measure.

d) We have steadily diminished both income and capital gains tax rates over the last 50 years. Long Term Cap Gains was 35% in the late 1970s and 20% today. The top brackets for individual income taxes were slashed consistently to the current levels that started in the 1980s.

So this is the reality of things . . . . .if we are serious about fiscal prudence and reigning in debt, we have to tax something and the ultra-rich have it better right now than they ever had both in terms of net worth and a friendly tax code so they are the obvious targets.

---

People seem to forget this part. And those in power have been so successful in gaslighting the public into thinking that going back to the way things were is: 1) punishing success and 2) rewarding laziness. The sad thing is people who would most benefit from this often vote against their own interests

---

Please link to any post on here calling people lazy or say punishing success.

Thanks.

---

You said I was lazy for using the term "Christian Nationalist."

---

I should have stated in the context of describing the poor. Sorry.

Zobel said:

---

Quote:

---

Split the money saved in half with half going towards the debt and the other half a direct cash payment to the poor.

---

bad bull, doc. not your money to give to the poor. this is the action of a king, not a president.

every governmental asset belongs to the people collectively, not the government. let that be a law passed - if the people want it. i suspect they'd rather have their own money back. AND i suspect that charitable contributions would skyrocket.

---

At least I was right about cutting spending. We should cut government 25%.

let me answer another way using steel again as an example.

what is the correct amount of steel for the united states to produce?

how many people should the US steel industry support?

how much should they be paid?

and after we determine all that -- how much of a cost of living increase are you willing to endure in order to make those things happen? how much poorer should the rest of us be to hit whatever numbers you pencil in there for steel?

or how much should the cost of everything we ship in and out of ports increase in order to give dockworkers a raise? how much poorer should you be relative to them? how do you decide? why should you decide?

these are the kind of things silly questions like "was it bad we let those industries die" come down to.

Rocag said:

---

nortex97 said:

---

Mockery of the Eucharist by a sitting Dem governor is very on-brand.

Let’s be clear what’s happening in this video.

Gov. Whitmer of Michigan is pretending to give communion to an leftist podcaster on her knees, using a Dorito as the Eucharist while wearing a Harris-Walz hat.

Do they want ZERO Catholic votes for Harris?pic.twitter.com/daUTNX9vNn

— Tim Murtaugh (@TimMurtaugh) October 10, 2024

---

I really don't think the intent there was to mock the Eucharist. She was actually mocking Fox News which for some odd reason made a big deal about Kamala Harris eating Doritos.

Fox News slams Harris for eating Doritos.

---

It seems obvious to me but to each his/her own. Also, the whole podcast is targeting the abortion crowd (purpose of the lady who runs it).

This was before she mocked Communion … again, I don’t get it. How is this appealing on any level? pic.twitter.com/4RAOUvy3WN

— The🐰FOO (@PolitiBunny) October 10, 2024

Of course, post-birth abortion is a thing, and at least 5 children have been born alive after failed abortions in Tim Walz MN since all limits on abortion were done away with, only to be 'allowed' to die, and he demonically facilitated the elimination of the requirement that such children be provided with life saving care/treatment.

Quote:

---

Feministablous, the creator, is aiming her content at feminist men, and that is the focus of her campaign work. You can go check out her feed.

This is who the Democrats are. This is who they want to represent as their core constituency. No governor would do this without her thinking her constituents would approve.

---

Legalized infanticide is a core Democrat position/value.

Import from F16 just because...

Quote:

---

I'm pretty tired of the pearl clutching over this, given the legislation and policies Republicans support (and do not support).

There is one party who is trying to make sure all kids are fed, educated, have their basic needs met, and have the resources they need to succeed, and it is not the Republicans.

---

It's pretty tough to document when the documentation requirement was eliminated by democrats, isn't it? Why was it eliminated, to save cost? Why were the requirements (such as for a second doctor on hand in addition to the abortionist involved) eliminated by democrats, toward what social good?

The party trying to make sure human trafficking (sex and child) is facilitated is indeed known, and has made the drug gangs a mult-billion dollar business in human smuggling thanks to their policies over the past few years, and that doesn't help kids, nor does making sure they can be abandoned after birth without documentation. Those are basic needs, in my judgment.

The Darien Gap should be renamed the Democrat Party gap, imho. 'All the resources,' LOL.

That is not Trump's position.
I'm not sure what the Republican plank says about abortion,
but guess it is supportive of state's setting their own regs.
The Roe vs Wade decision that overturned a Texas law that
allowed abortion for the first six months looks like a mistake
now, but back then the Supreme Court was liberal and
fine with making abortion a "civil right" even though it is in
fact a medical procedure performed by licensed professionals.
Trump and I wish we could end the bickering with some sort
of compromise like that, but the pro-life people grew strong
over many years of fighting the Roe vs Wade Decision...
and they don't seem interested in compromising baby's lives.

Whitmer catholic backlash;

Quote:

---

After participating in a weird submissive-porn version of Catholic communion, or just a demonstration of how Kamalites operate, the governor of Michigan has gotten a deluge of outrage and criticism. Catholic bishops in all seven dioceses in the state issued a statement demanding an explanation and apology for Whitmer's campaign video for Kamala Harris and its "offensive impact" in mocking the Eucharist. Clearly, the bishops recognized the imagery Whitmer and Liz Plank used, since they see it every day in their own parishes:

Quote:

---

The Bishops of Michigan have expressed their "profound disappointment and offense taken" with Governor Gretchen Whitmer for posting a video skit on social media showing the state's Governor feeding a Dorito corn chip to a kneeling podcaster in a manner that is widely being perceived as a mockery of the Holy Eucharist.
"The skit goes further than the viral online trend that inspired it, specifically imitating the posture and gestures of Catholics receiving the Holy Eucharist, in which we believe that Jesus Christ is truly present," said Paul A. Long, President and CEO of the Michigan Catholic Conference which represents the seven dioceses of the state, October 11.
"It is not just distasteful or 'strange;' it is an all-too-familiar example of an elected official mocking religious persons and their practices. While dialogue on this issue with the governor's office is appreciated, whether or not insulting Catholics and the Eucharist was the intent, it has had an offensive impact."

---

Indeed, although as I wrote earlier, that's not all the video did, either. Whitmer role-played a priestess in a cult setting rather than make an argument for her preferred policy. Even without the trappings of Catholic practice, the video makes progressives and Democrats into a cult and its elected officials as idols to be worshipped, as Plank clearly demonstrated, rather than public officials to be held accountable.

---

I guess those bishops just aren't as sophisticated as some of our more 'liberal' catholic friends.

Quote:

---

In other words, it's yet another manifestation of Whitmer's egotistic elitism. We apparently should all kneel and consume this statement in the same way that Plank received her Blessed Whitmer Dorito.

---

About right. Oh, and as to the 'party that wants to help children' a 40 percent surge in english as second language in Penn schools since 2021 isn't 'helping' the school districts, teachers, or kids. It's overwhelming them;

Quote:

---

The number of English Language Learners (ELL) in school districts in Pennsylvania has surged nearly 40% since 2021, forcing public schools to shell out more cash to try and meet the needs of these students, according to documents obtained via records requests and open-source information reviewed by the Daily Caller News Foundation. The surge for many schools began in the 2021-2022 academic school year, coinciding with the onset of the Biden-Harris administration and the subsequent border crisis.
The surge has walloped already-understaffed schools and taken educational opportunities away from native children, local residents and school district leaders experiencing the influx told the DCNF.

Records collected by the DCNF reveal a staggering increase of English learner students and swelling costs in small-town school districts in particular under the Biden administration, which has presided over a record-breaking illegal immigration crisis.

---

That's the moral harm that the Democrat party represents though; hurt constituents and children in the interest of political power long term, but claim some sort of moral high ground while doing it.

Quote:

---

Out of Pennsylvania's 500 school districts, the DCNF identified 62 that experienced a 100% increase or more of English language students between 2021 and 2024. Another 68 districts experienced an increase of at least 50% during that same time period.
For parents in smaller towns that have experienced a sharp rise in migrant students, the impact has proven incredibly personal.
"My daughter was ready to be in Head Start," Heather Roberts said to the DCNF, speaking about a pre-K program in Pennsylvania that caters to students with disabilities and low-income families. Her daughter fit the former description, as she was born with only one kidney.
"Two weeks before Head Start was set to begin, [the school] contacted me and told me my child was not allowed to attend because of all of the immigrants coming in," she said. The school was forced to knock her daughter out of the program in order to accommodate more than 20 new Haitian students who came from low-income households, Roberts said.

---

So kind, and christian to support this.

Whitmer should have known better, but obviously doesn't.
I think even she knows better than to mock Islam.

Sapper Redux said:

---

Hotair.com and the "Daily Caller News Foundation"? Your next link from a source that isn't insanely far right will be your first. The Whitmer thing is a parody of a TikTok trend, though I wouldn't be at all surprised if the U.S. Catholic bishops were in the dark about that.

---

Thank you for conceding all points, and I'll continue to not rely on PBS/NPR/CNN/Dem underground for my news.

LOL. Those ignoramus Michigan Catholic bishops, I guess she should have just explained that to them too in her non-apology. I doubt they even listen to the female canadian infanticide podcaster she partnered with. Anyway, this will only hurt the Democrats in Michigan with Catholics, clearly, which I'm fine with, even if it takes this kind of insulting act to do;

Quote:

---

In an interview with Breitbart's Matt Boyle on Breitbart News Saturday, Faith and Freedom founder and Chairman Ralph Reed specifically highlighted the critical role the Catholic vote will play in swing states.

"Then you turn to the Roman Catholic vote, which is going to be so critical, particularly in the upper Midwest states like Pennsylvania, Wisconsin, and Michigan. He's already winning the Catholic vote today, 52 to 47 percent," he said, citing Pew Research data, which he noted was taken before Vice President Kamala Harris became the first nominee for president since the 1980s to decline attending the Al Smith Dinner. On Thursday, an internal poll by Fabrizio/McLaughlin showed former President Trump with a one-point lead over Vice President Kamala Harris in Michigan.

---

More: Apparently, the Michigan Catholic Conference President and CEO was aware of the 'Tiktok challenge'…

Quote:

---

"The skit goes further than the viral online trend that inspired it, specifically imitating the posture and gestures of Catholics receiving the Holy Eucharist, in which we believe that Jesus Christ is truly present," Paul Long, Michigan Catholic Conference President and CEO, said in a statement. "It is not just distasteful or 'strange;' it is an all-too-familiar example of an elected official mocking religious persons and their practices."

The video was not the first time that a Democratic official has been blasted as being anti-Catholic.

Newt Gingrich accused Vice President Kamala Harris of being "anti-Catholic" in 2020 because of her treatment of U.S. District Judge Brian Buescher during his Senate confirmation hearing, and her alleged involvement in the closure of a number of Catholic hospitals in California while she was California attorney general.

The FBI has also been accused of promoting anti-Catholic rhetoric after a memo went out last year in Richmond that characterized Catholics that attend traditional Latin Mass as potential violent extremists. However, the Department of Justice cleared the bureau of "malicious intent" in April.

---

Democrats=anti-Catholic party, but for Catholic Charities, because it supports their human trafficking scheme.

barbacoa taco said:

---

it's perfectly reasonable to discuss regulations and laws on abortion, but when the Republican position is "no abortions, ever, for any reason, no exceptions" it's impossible to even have a discussion about it.

---

Why? And just curious, if you believe as I do that life begins at conception, can you understand how I feel abortion is murder? Or is that view just completely untenable to you because it claims absolute right and wrong?

And if it is, then there is a whole lot more babies being killed than mothers' health being jeopardized by abortion laws.

dermdoc said:

---

barbacoa taco said:

---

it's perfectly reasonable to discuss regulations and laws on abortion, but when the Republican position is "no abortions, ever, for any reason, no exceptions" it's impossible to even have a discussion about it.

---

Why? And just curious, if you believe as I do that life begins at conception, can you understand how I feel abortion is murder? Or is that view just completely untenable to you because it claims absolute right and wrong?

And if it is, then there is a whole lot more babies being killed than mothers' health being jeopardized by abortion laws.

---

abortion is a tough issue as we all know. it's never going to resolved by an all or nothing approach. I figured we would be mature enough to admit that by now but here we are.

and the reason the GOP pretends to be more moderate on the issue ("take it back to the states") on their platform is because they know their true position on it is insanely unpopular, even in red states.

Sapper Redux said:

---

Hotair.com and the "Daily Caller News Foundation"? Your next link from a source that isn't insanely far right will be your first. The Whitmer thing is a parody of a TikTok trend, though I wouldn't be at all surprised if the U.S. Catholic bishops were in the dark about that.

---

while I dont understand the doritos video and thought it was kinda dumb, this feels like more manufactured outrage, just like after the olympics opening ceremony. the tough, anti-woke, thick skinned people losing their minds over a dumb video.

" their human trafficking scheme."

I guess you can't help yourself.

The Dems don't traffic in the same way that gangs do, but when contacted by a large business (that is typically a Dem Party supporter) about needing employees, they do arrange for flights of Cubans, Haitians, etc.
To my knowledge, this impending invasion of cheap labor is never okayed with the existing community.

Are businesses who need workers and can't find them locally supposed to get the permission of the local government to hire eligible employees?

Sapper Redux said:

---

Are businesses who need workers and can't find them locally supposed to get the permission of the local government to hire eligible employees?

---

As part of the Social Security Act every state was mandated to run an employment service that works with employers to provide job applicants, do training, do statistical research, and provide unemployment insurance.
This is the agency employers should go to rather than back door meetings with party officials to semi-secretly import workers to be FLOWN IN AT TAXPAYER EXPENSE and will displace native Americans.

"Semi-secretly"

The tin foil is strong with this one!

Will they leave early is the question.

PabloSerna said:

---

"Semi-secretly"

The tin foil is strong with this one!

---

Yeah, it's hard to say flat out secret when it's a government program being paid for with public funds, but we constantly hear people on the internet claiming how much of a surprise it is that SO MANY immigrants showed up in their communities practically overnight.

Paroling (now) millions by abuse of a 'legal' process is clearly the plan, and then placing them disproportionately in 'battleground states,' human suffering and communities be damned;

Quote:

---

A staffer within the committee told Newsweek via email that Mayorkas "has consistently and willfully abused the clear text of the Immigration and Nationality Act, including the statute that governs parole."
"Parole can only be issued on a case-by-case and temporary basis, for significant public benefit or urgent humanitarian reason," they said. "In past administrations, this was interpreted to mean actions like admitting someone for urgent medical care or to testify in legal proceedings.
"Mass-paroling more than 400,000 individuals from these countriesso farwhom DHS itself has admitted are otherwise inadmissible is inconsistent with the law. Secretary Mayorkas was impeached, in part, for willfully and systemically refusing to comply with the laws passed by Congress. This program, part of the secretary's unprecedented embrace of mass parole, certainly is more evidence the House made the right decision."
"200,000 illegal aliens FLEW into US cities thanks to these illegal categorical parole programs," Texas Representative Chip Roy wrote on X. "Remember: 1.6M foreign nationals are CURRENTLY waiting for approval to ENTER the US under these open border schemes."
The CHNV program was designed to allow certain individuals to enter the U.S., namely those with domestic sponsors and who pass background checks.
But criticism has mounted on the lawfulness of the program and the individuals being accepted into the U.S., notably due to increased numbers of southern border apprehensions involving people from those countries.

---

They are trying to import refugees into the battleground state of Wisconsin as well. Congressman Tiffany blows the whistle on NGO secretly coordinating with leftwing City manager of Eau Claire to bring in refugees without public input. pic.twitter.com/7LwxjG2qlE

— Matt Batzel (@MattBatzel) September 18, 2024

The left is just mad they are not going to rural/red counties enough;

Wow.

They are not even hiding it. Bloomberg is advocating migrants be settled into Republican counties. Like the article straight up says too many are going to blue counties.

“In battleground states that decide the election, 72% of migrants went to counties that voted for… pic.twitter.com/IwUuCJ5z9K

— Insurrection Barbie (@DefiyantlyFree) September 17, 2024

So caring. The moral low ground is always covered by the Democrat Party of infanticide, human trafficking, and war, now proudly touting its support from Dick Cheney.

It's like an echo chamber.