88Warrior said:

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Sure is easy spending other people's money…..

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I did it with my parents for years. But everybody has to grow up and assume responsibility.unkess you are a leftist.

dermdoc said:

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88Warrior said:

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Sure is easy spending other people's money…..

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I did it with my parents for years. But everybody has to grow up and assume responsibility.unkess you are a leftist.

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No doubt! I get tired of all the "fair share" talk when over half of the citizens don't pay any income tax ….imho everyone has to have some skin in the game…hence the "easy spending other people's money" statement…

88Warrior said:

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dermdoc said:

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88Warrior said:

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Sure is easy spending other people's money…..

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I did it with my parents for years. But everybody has to grow up and assume responsibility.unkess you are a leftist.

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No doubt! I get tired of all the "fair share" talk when over half of the citizens don't pay any income tax ….imho everyone has to have some skin in the game…hence the "easy spending other people's money" statement…

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I'm of two minds in this one. As I inch towards that top 1% number and my tax bill gets more extreme I've found myself believing in progressive taxation more not less. Put simply my lifestyle and purchase choices are less impacted by my six figure tax bills than my 5 figure ones. But with that my dissatisfaction with government waste has increased as I watch a larger number lit on fire.

I do believe most everyone should have skin in the game on federal taxes and I also believe a progressive tax structure makes sense and do so as a have not a have not. We do need revenue and our poor spending habits are not an adequate reason to support a flat tax.

I also find some of the rhetoric about the top 10% of the earners paying 75% of the taxes to be oversold. That statistic needs to be stated within the context that if we had a flat tax the number would be something like 52%.

Frankly I don't find it that extreme. I also don't think either party is going to offer more than marginal movement on the tax dial and any rhetoric to the contrary is likely hyperbole and hardly a central issue.

Tax rates are one of the areas I find reasonable people can disagree. Yet even on this the parties throw rocks. It's all tiresome.

I would love a flat tax with no deductions.

The "how we gonna pay for it" line doesn't work anymore. Because those who say it have no problem with it when it benefits them or furthers their agenda. Such as Medicare, ppp loan forgiveness, sending weapons to Israel, bailing out banks. Because when the ruling class gets social benefits, they use it to pay themselves first.

It's only when we use the money we have to benefit others, that you start asking about who's gonna pay for what. Like expanded Medicaid, teacher pay raises, funding the foster program, parental leave, etc

Like I said before, Texas had a $32 billion surplus last year. We have the money to do a lot of these things. We just actively choose not to, because our leaders do not care about anyone but themselves and their buddies.

If you're rich and you get something from the government, you earned it. If you're poor and ask for it, you're entitled.

Why don't we use this money? I have a theory. It's because if we do, people will realize that we don't have to do it the old way anymore. And why would our leaders want that? They are very comfortable and happy right now. Including you.

you're back in the suffrage trap. democratic society. the outcome is the will of the people until proven otherwise... so it isn't our leaders who don't want to spend it on your ideas, it is the citizens who don't.

and you never answered the question. you want to do all this charity with other people's money. how much of your own are you putting up? $10? $100?

barbacoa taco said:

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The "how we gonna pay for it" line doesn't work anymore. Because those who say it have no problem with it when it benefits them or furthers their agenda. Such as Medicare, ppp loan forgiveness, sending weapons to Israel, bailing out banks. Because when the ruling class gets social benefits, they use it to pay themselves first.

It's only when we use the money we have to benefit others, that you start asking about who's gonna pay for what. Like expanded Medicaid, teacher pay raises, funding the foster program, parental leave, etc

Like I said before, Texas had a $32 billion surplus last year. We have the money to do a lot of these things. We just actively choose not to, because our leaders do not care about anyone but themselves and their buddies.

If you're rich and you get something from the government, you earned it. If you're poor and ask for it, you're entitled.

Why don't we use this money? I have a theory. It's because if we do, people will realize that we don't have to do it the old way anymore. And why would our leaders want that? They are very comfortable and happy right now. Including you.

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So that is a lot of words to say you don't care because it is others people money. And I think if Texas has a 32 million dollar surplus then actual tax payers should have their rates lowered. It is their earned money (property) to use as they want.

And in my opinion, it is not my place or yours, to force them to use their earned income a specific way.

The government does not make money. It only takes and spends it.

Edited to add Israel is our ally. Hamas is not. And they just executed 6 people, including 1 American. And Hamas is who Gaza elected as their government.

Your statement of support for Gaza further reveals your naivete. I am done.

And one more thing. If you do not earn something yourself, and government takes from others who did earn it to give to you, it is by definition an entitlement.

The government is not a charity. A charity is financed by voluntary giving, not forced taxation.

dermdoc said:

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barbacoa taco said:

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The "how we gonna pay for it" line doesn't work anymore. Because those who say it have no problem with it when it benefits them or furthers their agenda. Such as Medicare, ppp loan forgiveness, sending weapons to Israel, bailing out banks. Because when the ruling class gets social benefits, they use it to pay themselves first.

It's only when we use the money we have to benefit others, that you start asking about who's gonna pay for what. Like expanded Medicaid, teacher pay raises, funding the foster program, parental leave, etc

Like I said before, Texas had a $32 billion surplus last year. We have the money to do a lot of these things. We just actively choose not to, because our leaders do not care about anyone but themselves and their buddies.

If you're rich and you get something from the government, you earned it. If you're poor and ask for it, you're entitled.

Why don't we use this money? I have a theory. It's because if we do, people will realize that we don't have to do it the old way anymore. And why would our leaders want that? They are very comfortable and happy right now. Including you.

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So that is a lot of words to say you don't care because it is others people money. And I think if Texas has a 32 million dollar surplus then actual tax payers should have their rates lowered. It is their earned money (property) to use as they want.

And in my opinion, it is not my place or yours, to force them to use their earned income a specific way.

The government does not make money. It only takes and spends it.

Edited to add Israel is our ally. Hamas is not. And they just executed 6 people, including 1 American. And Hamas is who Gaza elected as their government.

Your statement of support for Gaza further reveals your naivete. I am done.

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Fine then. Government serves a purpose. It isn't to give everyone everything they want. It's what is laid out in the preamble to the constitution, such as to promote the general welfare. I'm guessing you don't think about a lot of the problems I've mentioned because they don't affect you. I'm largely unaffected by lots of them too, but I have seen a government that only exists to serve the ruling class, and I'm quite tired of it.

I just see through it now. If it serves your purposes, it's a good thing. If it serves other people's purposes, they are taking your money. Simple as that.

It's funny how you were so offended by my Israel statement. It was a very tame statement. I even know conservatives who agree with me on that.

And if you think me saying we should either hold off on sending them as many weapons as they want, or for us to condition our aid to them, then I don't know what to tell you. I'm proud to have donated to Palestine relief charities. Those people have been through so much, and they do not deserve the cruelty they've experienced. I do not support Hamas and their violent agenda. If you are offended by my "support of Gaza" then maybe I should go back to church and pray that God softens your heart.

dermdoc said:

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barbacoa taco said:

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The "how we gonna pay for it" line doesn't work anymore. Because those who say it have no problem with it when it benefits them or furthers their agenda. Such as Medicare, ppp loan forgiveness, sending weapons to Israel, bailing out banks. Because when the ruling class gets social benefits, they use it to pay themselves first.

It's only when we use the money we have to benefit others, that you start asking about who's gonna pay for what. Like expanded Medicaid, teacher pay raises, funding the foster program, parental leave, etc

Like I said before, Texas had a $32 billion surplus last year. We have the money to do a lot of these things. We just actively choose not to, because our leaders do not care about anyone but themselves and their buddies.

If you're rich and you get something from the government, you earned it. If you're poor and ask for it, you're entitled.

Why don't we use this money? I have a theory. It's because if we do, people will realize that we don't have to do it the old way anymore. And why would our leaders want that? They are very comfortable and happy right now. Including you.

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So that is a lot of words to say you don't care because it is others people money. And I think if Texas has a 32 million dollar surplus then actual tax payers should have their rates lowered. It is their earned money (property) to use as they want.

And in my opinion, it is not my place or yours, to force them to use their earned income a specific way.

The government does not make money. It only takes and spends it.

Edited to add Israel is our ally. Hamas is not. And they just executed 6 people, including 1 American. And Hamas is who Gaza elected as their government.

Your statement of support for Gaza further reveals your naivete. I am done.

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I would argue that your inability or unwilligness to separate Palestinians from Hamas is either naive or willfully ignorant.

a lot of people are either unwilling or unable to do that. If I say my opinion on why people think this way, I'll get banned. But the current conflict has revealed a lot of people's character. There have been a number of threads on F16 in the past year complaining about "Hamas supporters" on campus, when it's really just students protesting or standing in solidarity with Palestinians.

What floors me about derm is he criticized me for "support of Gaza" as if that's a bad thing.

Macarthur said:

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dermdoc said:

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barbacoa taco said:

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The "how we gonna pay for it" line doesn't work anymore. Because those who say it have no problem with it when it benefits them or furthers their agenda. Such as Medicare, ppp loan forgiveness, sending weapons to Israel, bailing out banks. Because when the ruling class gets social benefits, they use it to pay themselves first.

It's only when we use the money we have to benefit others, that you start asking about who's gonna pay for what. Like expanded Medicaid, teacher pay raises, funding the foster program, parental leave, etc

Like I said before, Texas had a $32 billion surplus last year. We have the money to do a lot of these things. We just actively choose not to, because our leaders do not care about anyone but themselves and their buddies.

If you're rich and you get something from the government, you earned it. If you're poor and ask for it, you're entitled.

Why don't we use this money? I have a theory. It's because if we do, people will realize that we don't have to do it the old way anymore. And why would our leaders want that? They are very comfortable and happy right now. Including you.

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So that is a lot of words to say you don't care because it is others people money. And I think if Texas has a 32 million dollar surplus then actual tax payers should have their rates lowered. It is their earned money (property) to use as they want.

And in my opinion, it is not my place or yours, to force them to use their earned income a specific way.

The government does not make money. It only takes and spends it.

Edited to add Israel is our ally. Hamas is not. And they just executed 6 people, including 1 American. And Hamas is who Gaza elected as their government.

Your statement of support for Gaza further reveals your naivete. I am done.

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I would argue that your inability or unwillingness to separate Palestinians from Hamas is either naive or willfully ignorant.

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I get it. I understand that not all Germans were Nazis. It is an incredibly complicated situation and I have compassion for the Palestinians. But there is plenty of evidence the Palestinians bring up their kids to hate Jews. And they either voted or allowed Hamas to take control.
I find it fascinating that the same poster that is skeptical of charitable donations here is willing to send money to who know where.

barbacoa taco said:

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a lot of people are either unwilling or unable to do that. If I say my opinion on why people think this way, I'll get banned. But the current conflict has revealed a lot of people's character. There have been a number of threads on F16 in the past year complaining about "Hamas supporters" on campus, when it's really just students protesting or standing in solidarity with Palestinians.

What floors me about derm is he criticized me for "support of Gaza" as if that's a bad thing.

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Is Hamas in Gaza?

And how did Hamas gain control of Gaza?

So, you do know that the election was almost 20 years ago? more than half of the population of Gaza wasn't alive when that 'election' took place. I use the term election in quotes for a reason. I think you know why.

Do you feel that there should be any limits on Israel?

won't answer whether he donates money = doesn't do squat, wants to spend other people's money.

why bother interacting with this?

it's just tiny tyranny. "i don't do this with my own money, you don't do it with yours, collectively we don't want to do this, but i want the government to force other people to do it, and if you don't i say its a moral error."

Macarthur said:

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So, you do know that the election was almost 20 years ago? more than half of the population of Gaza wasn't alive when that 'election' took place. I use the term election in quotes for a reason. I think you know why.

Do you feel that there should be any limits on Israel?

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Sure. Rules of war. I am against any atrocities.

Hamas just executed 6 hostages including one American. I am against that.

Do you agree Hamas should be taken out? Why aren't the Palestinians trying to do that also?

As am I.

But that does not give Israel a blank check to destroy an entire population.

Macarthur said:

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As am I.

But that does not give Israel a blank check to destroy an entire population.

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Agree.

Quote:

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I have seen a government that only exists to serve the ruling class, and I'm quite tired of it.

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this statement also has suffrage problems in a democratic system.

there's only a few options here.

- the voters are voting with their own interests, in which case the system generally reflects their wishes
- the voters are actively voting against their own interests, in which case they are incompetent
- the voters will is not reflected in the outcomes of the system, which means the system must be changed

but barbacoa is making none of these arguments. it's a muddled shadowy cabal doing all of these things, and sort of implies people like me and derm are part of this "ruling class" and everyone else is just... i dont know what they're doing. either idiots or ineffective. and rich people get their money by stealing it from the poor, and hoard it in cash buried in their back yards where it doesn't befit anyone. again. why engage with such facile reasoning?

Zobel said:

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Quote:

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I have seen a government that only exists to serve the ruling class, and I'm quite tired of it.

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this statement also has suffrage problems in a democratic system.

there's only a few options here.

- the voters are voting with their own interests, in which case the system generally reflects their wishes
- the voters are actively voting against their own interests, in which case they are incompetent
- the voters will is not reflected in the outcomes of the system, which means the system must be changed

but barbacoa is making none of these arguments. it's a muddled shadowy cabal doing all of these things, and sort of implies people like me and derm are part of this "ruling class" and everyone else is just... i dont know what they're doing. either idiots or ineffective. and rich people get their money by stealing it from the poor, and hoard it in cash buried in their back yards where it doesn't befit anyone. again. why engage with such facile reasoning?

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You are correct. I am done,

Zobel said:

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Quote:

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I have seen a government that only exists to serve the ruling class, and I'm quite tired of it.

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this statement also has suffrage problems in a democratic system.

there's only a few options here.

- the voters are voting with their own interests, in which case the system generally reflects their wishes
- the voters are actively voting against their own interests, in which case they are incompetent
- the voters will is not reflected in the outcomes of the system, which means the system must be changed

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ding ding ding. you hit the nail on the head. all three of these things are true. especially #3.

I thought we didn't agree on much, but it looks like we do.

you've said that a few times. I'm not sure if you're done because arguing for 20 pages is tiresome (which I understand) or because you're offended by a statement I made. but in any event, maybe this thread has run its course.

those three options are mutually exclusive ya goober.

we already knew you were a tyrant who has no use for freedom. we agree on basically nothing.

barbacoa taco said:

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you've said that a few times. I'm not sure if you're done because arguing for 20 pages is tiresome (which I understand) or because you're offended by a statement I made. but in any event, maybe this thread has run its course.

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You kept drawing me back in.

Have a good day.

they are not mutually exclusive at all. not all voters are the same.

- rich people and the ruling class vote their interests
- many lower class people, especially rural voters, consistently vote against their own interests
- the voters will is often not reflected in outcomes. I see this all the time as someone who has voted Democratic since 2014. I am disappointed by politicians time and time again. I criticize the GOP a lot, but the Democratic party is full of people who claim to be "for the people" but in reality they're corporatists.

https://www.catholicnewsagency.com/news/259119/ewtn-newsrealclear-opinion-research-poll-harris-leads-trump-among-catholic-voters

Harris has a narrow lead among self identified Catholics, except among Catholics who attend daily mass; where Trump is almost double at 55-30

Macarthur said:

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As am I.

But that does not give Israel a blank check to destroy an entire population.

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If they wanted to destroy an entire population, they would have done so on October 8th.

The American love affair with Israel has got to stop. It's almost entirely a product of dispensationalism and the Scofield Bible, and has no place within Christianity or patriotism.

barbacoa taco said:

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a lot of people are either unwilling or unable to do that. If I say my opinion on why people think this way, I'll get banned. But the current conflict has revealed a lot of people's character. There have been a number of threads on F16 in the past year complaining about "Hamas supporters" on campus, when it's really just students protesting or standing in solidarity with Palestinians.

What floors me about derm is he criticized me for "support of Gaza" as if that's a bad thing.

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Is that why they are harassing Jews and spouting rabid anti-semitism?

Macarthur said:

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As am I.

But that does not give Israel a blank check to destroy an entire population.

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How about if Israel "takes out" roughly ten enemies for every missile shot at Israel.
It's just an estimate but accurate missile strikes could easily average ten "take outs".
And at some point in the future, HAMAS/Hizballah/Houthis etc will be given more
powerful, more able to evade interception missiles by Iran/Russia/China.
Do you not understand that this is NOT a simple police action, Israel rightly
declared WAR on HAMAS. Wars are won by killing your enemy in quantity.
At the rate the Muslims make babies, who largely grow up to hate Israel,
this looks like protracted conflict, with the U.S. supporting Israel.

Rocag said:

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Silent For Too Long said:

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Quote:

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Quote:

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she provoked the war in Russia,

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no she didnt. WTF are you talking about?

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Diplomatic efforts were underway to avoid war and Kamala's orders from the Biden administration were to encourage the war at all costs. Because just like the Neocons, the DNC is the military industrial complexes *****.

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[Citation needed]

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RFK Jr has been saying it a lot lately, but you already knew that.

Maybe he's making it up. Maybe his father and uncle were murdered by random actors. Maybe there really was WMDs in Iraq.

Believe what you want.

barbacoa taco said:

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Zobel said:

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Quote:

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I have seen a government that only exists to serve the ruling class, and I'm quite tired of it.

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this statement also has suffrage problems in a democratic system.

there's only a few options here.

- the voters are voting with their own interests, in which case the system generally reflects their wishes
- the voters are actively voting against their own interests, in which case they are incompetent
- the voters will is not reflected in the outcomes of the system, which means the system must be changed

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ding ding ding. you hit the nail on the head. all three of these things are true. especially #3.

I thought we didn't agree on much, but it looks like we do.

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Barb has made several references to how Texas might spend its "surplus"
I tried to look up how this has been decided but best thing I found was
from a year ago - I like this because it has videos of state leaders giving
opinions about how the money should be used. This is democracy in action.


Here is an up-to-date version, the next session starts in early 2025.
https://texasscorecard.com/state/property-tax-cut-advocates-push-texas-senate-for-future-relief/

Silent For Too Long said:

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barbacoa taco said:

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a lot of people are either unwilling or unable to do that. If I say my opinion on why people think this way, I'll get banned. But the current conflict has revealed a lot of people's character. There have been a number of threads on F16 in the past year complaining about "Hamas supporters" on campus, when it's really just students protesting or standing in solidarity with Palestinians.

What floors me about derm is he criticized me for "support of Gaza" as if that's a bad thing.

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Is that why they are harassing Jews and spouting rabid anti-semitism?

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who? the current students at A&M? if so, citation needed. Using examples of bad protestors was always a dumb weak argument. The vast majority of them were protesting the Israeli government has done, and anyone who equates that with antisemitism is either stupid or intellectually dishonest. That accusation does not land anymore.

Silent For Too Long said:

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Macarthur said:

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As am I.

But that does not give Israel a blank check to destroy an entire population.

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If they wanted to destroy an entire population, they would have done so on October 8th.

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This is a troubling statement. It's essentially moving the goalposts, implying that nuking and complete extermination (i.e. the most extreme response) is the only true form of genocide.

Quo Vadis? said:

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The American love affair with Israel has got to stop. It's almost entirely a product of dispensationalism and the Scofield Bible, and has no place within Christianity or patriotism.

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sadly I think for many they do see it as part of BOTH Christianity and patriotism, i.e. Christian nationalism. I think this is the basis for evangelicals' stalwart support of Israel.