Presidential Election

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88Warrior
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In reply to Sapper Redux • 8:15a, 8/20/24
Sapper Redux said:
88Warrior said:
Sapper Redux said:
dermdoc said:
Sapper Redux said:
Silent For Too Long said:
Sapper Redux said:
dermdoc said:
Macarthur said:
I would agree. I suspect our difference is what each of us consider far left.


Kind of like our difference of what we think Christian nationalism is.


Thing is, there are definitions of these terms and one doesn't have to meet them all to broadly fit the definition. Harris doesn't fit any standard definition of "far left." She'd be considered VERY normy center-left in any other country (and by most Americans). Christian Nationalism is a bit more contested, but there are still basic principles. What I see more arguing about here is the impact of Christian nationalism on everyone, especially non-Christians, rather than the term itself.


Yeah, the person left of Bernie Sanders is Center Left.

Great take, Sap. We believe you.


Which position taken in this election is "left of Bernie Sanders"? Also, Bernie as a social democrat would not be considered "far left," but on the left.


So are you the only one who gets to define what "far left" is?

Because I disagree.


Do you know what the actual philosophical beliefs of communism are? Not what the Heritage Foundation claims communism is, but what it's actual ideology consists of?


We don't need the Heritage Foundation, you or anyone else telling us what communism is when we've seen it in action beginning in 1917ish…


Okay, that's not answering the question. In fact, it's proving the point that this is just based on personal vibes.


Personal vibes?? You're impossible….proof is in the pudding…I don't care what is in their manifesto or guiding documents or however they describe what their "system" is all about..we have roughly over 100 years of actual data , experience and millions of dead to tell us what communism is…even for you this is laughable…
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RAB91
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In reply to Rocag • 8:30a, 8/20/24
Rocag said:
Silent For Too Long said:
Anymore qualifiers you want to add to that try to make your point?

Relative to American politics, as in this country, as in what is relevant to this discussion, Bernie is as far left as they come...except Kamala is even further left.
I've seen lots of Republicans repeating that line, but not once have I seen one actually compare Bernie's policies with Kamala's to defend why they think it's true. In what actual ways is she further left than Bernie?
She was ranked the most liberal senator in 2019.... until that page magically disappeared when she became the candidate.

https://www.foxnews.com/media/webpage-rated-kamala-harris-most-liberal-senator-2019-suddenly-disappears

Quote:
GovTrack, an organization that tracks congressional voting records, confirmed to Fox News Digital it had removed a 2019 web page that ranked Kamala Harris as that year's "most liberal" U.S. senator sometime within the last two weeks.

The self-described "government transparency website" scored Harris as the "most liberal compared to all senators" in 2019, outranking Sens. Bernie Sanders and Elizabeth Warren at the time.

But the web page with the ranking, which was widely covered in news reports during the 2020 election, was recently deactivated. The link now displays a "Page Not Found" message. The Internet Archive shows the page was deleted sometime between July 10 and July 23, with some on X claiming the page was still up on July 22.
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dermdoc
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8:51a, 8/20/24
AG
From reading this thread I have learned something.

Evidently only libs can define how far left someone is.

Shazam.
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kurt vonnegut
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In reply to dermdoc • 8:53a, 8/20/24
AG
dermdoc said:

Is there a need for the condescension? You could learn something from how Kurt posts.

These thread have no shortage of what could be read or interpreted as condescension from BOTH sides. I think the posters here all generally have sincere and good intentions, but these are emotional issues and its going to be hard to communicate without bringing out some of those emotions - especially in this format.

I think you mean the above as a compliment, but I don't know that I'm comfortable being your comparison for how other people are supposed to post.
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Sapper Redux
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In reply to 88Warrior • 1:40p, 8/20/24
88Warrior said:
Sapper Redux said:
88Warrior said:
Sapper Redux said:
dermdoc said:
Sapper Redux said:
Silent For Too Long said:
Sapper Redux said:
dermdoc said:
Macarthur said:
I would agree. I suspect our difference is what each of us consider far left.


Kind of like our difference of what we think Christian nationalism is.


Thing is, there are definitions of these terms and one doesn't have to meet them all to broadly fit the definition. Harris doesn't fit any standard definition of "far left." She'd be considered VERY normy center-left in any other country (and by most Americans). Christian Nationalism is a bit more contested, but there are still basic principles. What I see more arguing about here is the impact of Christian nationalism on everyone, especially non-Christians, rather than the term itself.


Yeah, the person left of Bernie Sanders is Center Left.

Great take, Sap. We believe you.


Which position taken in this election is "left of Bernie Sanders"? Also, Bernie as a social democrat would not be considered "far left," but on the left.


So are you the only one who gets to define what "far left" is?

Because I disagree.


Do you know what the actual philosophical beliefs of communism are? Not what the Heritage Foundation claims communism is, but what it's actual ideology consists of?


We don't need the Heritage Foundation, you or anyone else telling us what communism is when we've seen it in action beginning in 1917ish…


Okay, that's not answering the question. In fact, it's proving the point that this is just based on personal vibes.


Personal vibes?? You're impossible….proof is in the pudding…I don't care what is in their manifesto or guiding documents or however they describe what their "system" is all about..we have roughly over 100 years of actual data , experience and millions of dead to tell us what communism is…even for you this is laughable…


None of this response is anything more than vibes.
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Sapper Redux
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In reply to dermdoc • 1:44p, 8/20/24
dermdoc said:
Sapper Redux said:
Rongagin71 said:
When Marx originally formulated communism he meant communes (plantations) with the possibility of cities sending their poor/laborers out to lead productive lives on these large farms.
But farming tools, crop quality, roads, warehouses, refrigeration, etc, etc have made this idea as past tense as the idea of using slaves to produce crops.
Communism these days is more likely to mean a socialist party that seeks to take over as the single ruling party of a country, or a very anti-American type of socialism.


There's a whole world of work on political theory that's happened between 1847 and what you think communism, or "far left," means today.


Is there a need for the condescension? You could learn something from how Kurt posts.


I'll start addressing all of my posts with, "With all due respect."

Also, that's not condescending. That's pointing out the flaws in logic without writing a dissertation in response.
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Rocag
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In reply to RAB91 • 1:58p, 8/20/24
AG
If you look at their methodology it is primarily based on what bills the sponsor or co-sponsor. And while she might have been "most liberal" in their rankings for that year, overall she wasn't the most liberal for her term in office. By comparison (according to their rankings), she's about as far left as Ted Cruz is far right. Would you be persuaded by the argument that Ted Cruz is too far right to support?
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barbacoa taco
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In reply to dermdoc • 2:32p, 8/20/24
AG
dermdoc said:
From reading this thread I have learned something.

Evidently only libs can define how far left someone is.

Shazam.
I mean...

people on your side are calling Biden far left, which he clearly is not. He's a centrist. Obama a left leaning centrist. Bill Clinton was more conservative than both of them.

When it comes to American politics, I take the label "far left" with a huge grain of salt
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dermdoc
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In reply to barbacoa taco • 3:20p, 8/20/24
AG
barbacoa taco said:
dermdoc said:
From reading this thread I have learned something.

Evidently only libs can define how far left someone is.

Shazam.
I mean...

people on your side are calling Biden far left, which he clearly is not. He's a centrist. Obama a left leaning centrist. Bill Clinton was more conservative than both of them.

When it comes to American politics, I take the label "far left" with a huge grain of salt


So only libs can define what is a far leftist?

Who defines these terms? And I am being serious.
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dermdoc
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4:44p, 8/20/24
AG
It is obvious what I consider liberal or "far left" is different than liberal and even conservative posters on here
No material on this site is intended to be a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis or treatment. See full Medical Disclaimer.
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Rongagin71
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6:50p, 8/20/24
AG
It is true that dictionaries are a useful aid to communication, but the reality is that words constantly evolve.
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Silent For Too Long
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4:15p, 8/21/24
On the one hand we have Michael Moore rallying his fellow Marxists that they finally got a couple of theirs on top of the Dem ticket, and on the other we got Sap and Taco "nu uhing."

Ya'll are a hoot.
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Silent For Too Long
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In reply to barbacoa taco • 4:24p, 8/21/24
barbacoa taco said:
dermdoc said:
From reading this thread I have learned something.

Evidently only libs can define how far left someone is.

Shazam.
I mean...

people on your side are calling Biden far left, which he clearly is not. He's a centrist. Obama a left leaning centrist. Bill Clinton was more conservative than both of them.

When it comes to American politics, I take the label "far left" with a huge grain of salt


Maybe because from the perspective of a devout Marxists nothing is "far left" enough for you?

Calling Biden a centrists is laughably absurd. Student loan forgiveness?
The trillion dollar Climate bill that had that Pravda label of "Inflation Reduction Act"?

Yeah, real "Centrist" positions, there, homie.
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Rongagin71
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5:27p, 8/21/24
AG
Ron DeSantis gives some of the REASONS that Harris is Far Left.
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barbacoa taco
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In reply to Silent For Too Long • 10:34p, 8/21/24
AG
Silent For Too Long said:
On the one hand we have Michael Moore rallying his fellow Marxists that they finally got a couple of theirs on top of the Dem ticket, and on the other we got Sap and Taco "nu uhing."

Ya'll are a hoot.

Unlike a lot of people, giving kids free school lunches doesn't make me lose sleep at night
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Rongagin71
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In reply to barbacoa taco • 11:03p, 8/21/24
AG
I think that there were free or nearly free school lunches a long time before the Democrats created the Federal program with all the usual corruption entailed in huge budgets.
Food used to be incredibly cheap.
At this point, with food so high, I don't hear anyone saying school districts don't need help.
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Silent For Too Long
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In reply to barbacoa taco • 10:33p, 8/22/24
barbacoa taco said:
Silent For Too Long said:
On the one hand we have Michael Moore rallying his fellow Marxists that they finally got a couple of theirs on top of the Dem ticket, and on the other we got Sap and Taco "nu uhing."

Ya'll are a hoot.

Unlike a lot of people, giving kids free school lunches doesn't make me lose sleep at night


Non sequitor.
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Sapper Redux
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In reply to Rongagin71 • 11:58a, 8/23/24
Rongagin71 said:
I think that there were free or nearly free school lunches a long time before the Democrats created the Federal program with all the usual corruption entailed in huge budgets.
Food used to be incredibly cheap.
At this point, with food so high, I don't hear anyone saying school districts don't need help.


There weren't. There were huge debates about providing school lunch from the beginning.

https://www.georgiaencyclopedia.org/exhibition/food-power-and-politics-the-story-of-school-lunch/
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Windy City Ag
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In reply to Silent For Too Long • 1:34p, 8/23/24
AG
Quote:
Maybe because from the perspective of a devout Marxists nothing is "far left" enough for you?

I think conservative folks with opinions should drop the term Marxist. It makes them look confused and unserious.



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Windy City Ag
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In reply to dermdoc • 1:44p, 8/23/24
AG
Quote:
It is obvious what I consider liberal or "far left" is different than liberal and even conservative posters on here
I always wonder of there is some actual political spectrum to measure against. I would think that the positions of the various parties shift to such a degree that it is impossible to pin one down.

The Republicans have gone from the party of Milton Friedman and Reagan, where executive branch power was not a good thing and should be rolled back, to the party of Trump where Executive power was wielded much more forcefully.

The Democratic party has also lost its middle ground, advocating for immigration policies, abortion, gun control, and tax policy would shock the Blue Dog and Centrist Dems of the 1990s.

I have this small hope that a third party could emerge that blends economic conservatism with a more balanced set of social platform issues.

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88Warrior
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In reply to Sapper Redux • 4:46p, 8/23/24
Sapper Redux said:
Rongagin71 said:
I think that there were free or nearly free school lunches a long time before the Democrats created the Federal program with all the usual corruption entailed in huge budgets.
Food used to be incredibly cheap.
At this point, with food so high, I don't hear anyone saying school districts don't need help.


There weren't. There were huge debates about providing school lunch from the beginning.

https://www.georgiaencyclopedia.org/exhibition/food-power-and-politics-the-story-of-school-lunch/


There were free and reduced lunches in the mid 70's when I was in elementary…
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dermdoc
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In reply to Rongagin71 • 5:14p, 8/23/24
AG
Rongagin71 said:
I think that there were free or nearly free school lunches a long time before the Democrats created the Federal program with all the usual corruption entailed in huge budgets.
Food used to be incredibly cheap.
At this point, with food so high, I don't hear anyone saying school districts don't need help.
Why do prices and costs always sky rocket when government gets involved?
No material on this site is intended to be a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis or treatment. See full Medical Disclaimer.
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Silent For Too Long
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In reply to Windy City Ag • 6:24p, 8/23/24
Windy City Ag said:
Quote:
Maybe because from the perspective of a devout Marxists nothing is "far left" enough for you?

I think conservative folks with opinions should drop the term Marxist. It makes them look confused and unserious.





The modern progressive movement is the ideological descendent of Marxism. This is obvious to anyone who has actually researched the topic.

People on the internet with opinions should stop opining on subjects they obviously know nothing about
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Rongagin71
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In reply to Rongagin71 • 6:51p, 8/23/24
AG
Rongagin71 said:
I think that there were free or nearly free school lunches a long time before the Democrats created the Federal program with all the usual corruption entailed in huge budgets.
Food used to be incredibly cheap.
At this point, with food so high, I don't hear anyone saying school districts don't need help.
When I started to school (in the poor school district called South San) in 1954, almost all the kids brought lunch bags. There was a cafeteria, and lunches cost $.15, or less per lunch if you bought a lunch card.
Even when I went to Corpus Christi Carroll HS it was a big deal when lunches went from .30 to .45
I don't remember ever seeing a student complaining about not eating, but that may have happened in the bigger cities, or it may have been more of a teacher's union BS thing, I don't know.
I do know that conservatives still are fond of saying "there are no free lunches"...meaning someone has to pay.

Edit to post a meme from our political humor board...which I think is an example of going too far with the "Communist" label but understand that exaggeration is normal during campaigns. I don't think "Far Left" is an exaggeration.
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Windy City Ag
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In reply to Silent For Too Long • 7:51p, 8/23/24
AG
Quote:

The modern progressive movement is the ideological descendent of Marxism. This is obvious to anyone who has actually researched the topic.

So this should be a good discussion. I spent a good part of my grad school studying both neo-classical and neo-liberal economic structures (this is the conservative libertarian approach to help you) and even spent a good bit of time at one of the Scandanavian Economic Schools to try and better understand why they approach their economic planning from a Socialist perspective.

I have spent a whole lot of time researching this subject, I actually sat in a few of the sad Socialist party meetings as part of my research. Those folks would vehemently disagree with you that the progressive movement of today is a descendant of the Marxist theory

I suspect you have read a good bit on the subject as well, so lets hash it out.

My view of progressives today vs the Marxist ideal . . .just a few and not an exhaustive list Happy to go deeper on other points.

Similarities

1) Harnessing the class distinction - Current progressives have a very watered down version of the Proletariat vs. Bourgeoisie framework but work within the system. Key to Marx and Engels version was a seizure of the means of production. Progressive leaders of today are super capitalists within limo liberal redistribution through taxation and government spending beliefs. Not really close to being the same, but within the same continent so we can say their is some linkeage.

2) Fairytale concepts of universal equality - I have actually never met a progressive that really believes in a concept of classless society, but they do put forth concepts like UBI and government sponsored happiness that make me roll my eyes.

3) Concept of permanent struggle - I think the sole purpose of the progressive movement is to ***** about inequalities and they don't serve a purpose if this doesn't exist, similar to the Marxist struggle concept.

4) Progressives do advocate for us of state power to govern capitalism

Differences:

1) Progressives are corporatists - Most of the leaders are entrepreneurs, tech billionaires, or otherwise are fully engaged in a capitalist pursuit. Even Bernie Sanders is worth several million from book deals,

2) Progressives propose very weak redistribution measures compared to Marxists and have been totally subject to regulatory capture. Marx and Engels would **** their pants seeing so many class warriors taking board seats and

3) Progressives have ditched labor unions and worker organization - The rights of the worker have been slowly discarded starting with Clinton

4) Progressive belief in private ownership of assets and economic competition albeit with great oversight and regulation compared to conservatives

Progressives identify more with the Social Democratic movements that Marxism. Social Democracy was a total rejection of Marxist ideology.

Tell me where you disagree.
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Aggrad08
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8:18p, 8/23/24
AG
Fundamentally it seems silly to me to use the word communist unless we are talking about someone who wants workers to own the means of production.

If it's not that then we are simply talking about degrees of intervention, regulation, taxation, and benefits within a fundamentally capitalist system.
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Windy City Ag
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In reply to Aggrad08 • 8:22p, 8/23/24
AG
Quote:
Fundamentally it seems silly to me to use the word communist unless we are talking about someone who wants workers to own the means of production.

If it's not that then we are simply talking about degrees of intervention, regulation, taxation, and benefits within a fundamentally capitalist system.

Agreed . . . it is intellectually lazy and deliberately provocative.

The charge has lost a good bit of its power since the Red Scare on up to the fall of the Berlin Wall.

Somehow it has made a comeback but looks kind of dumb these days, where it had some teeth years ago.
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dermdoc
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In reply to Windy City Ag • 8:42p, 8/23/24
AG
Windy City Ag said:
Quote:
Fundamentally it seems silly to me to use the word communist unless we are talking about someone who wants workers to own the means of production.

If it's not that then we are simply talking about degrees of intervention, regulation, taxation, and benefits within a fundamentally capitalist system.

Agreed . . . it is intellectually lazy and deliberately provocative.

The charge has lost a good bit of its power since the Red Scare on up to the fall of the Berlin Wall.

Somehow it has made a comeback but looks kind of dumb these days, where it had some teeth years ago.
Fair enough. I just want to know what progressives want. I do not know what to call them. They seem to be never satisfied. It is always so much further left.
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Windy City Ag
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In reply to dermdoc • 8:55p, 8/23/24
AG
Quote:
They seem to be never satisfied.
Agree with this. There is an element of social struggle that defines the platform and does not seem to have an end point. It is a permanent angle to allege moral failures on the part of the opposition.


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dermdoc
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In reply to Windy City Ag • 9:01p, 8/23/24
AG
It is permanent victimhood. And somebody else is always to blame for you being a victim.
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Windy City Ag
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In reply to dermdoc • 9:06p, 8/23/24
AG
Which is massively counterproductive in my mind because the conditions that have truly lifted folks out of poverty and provided some element of equality are the forces of the free market.

OK . . .off my soapboax here. That new Kevin Costner western just popped up on my Max streaming app. Going to dive into that.

Good evening to all.
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dermdoc
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In reply to Windy City Ag • 9:08p, 8/23/24
AG
Windy City Ag said:
Which is massively counterproductive in my mind because the conditions that have truly lifted folks out of poverty and provided some element of equality are the forces of the free market.

OK . . .off my soapboax here. That new Kevin Costner western just popped up on my Max streaming app. Going to dive into that.

Good evening to all.
Just started the Bourne Supremacy.

Cheers.
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Silent For Too Long
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In reply to Windy City Ag • 9:08p, 8/23/24
Windy City Ag said:
Quote:

The modern progressive movement is the ideological descendent of Marxism. This is obvious to anyone who has actually researched the topic.

So this should be a good discussion. I spent a good part of my grad school studying both neo-classical and neo-liberal economic structures (this is the conservative libertarian approach to help you) and even spent a good bit of time at one of the Scandanavian Economic Schools to try and better understand why they approach their economic planning from a Socialist perspective.

I have spent a whole lot of time researching this subject, I actually sat in a few of the sad Socialist party meetings as part of my research. Those folks would vehemently disagree with you that the progressive movement of today is a descendant of the Marxist theory

I suspect you have read a good bit on the subject as well, so lets hash it out.

My view of progressives today vs the Marxist ideal . . .just a few and not an exhaustive list Happy to go deeper on other points.

Similarities

1) Harnessing the class distinction - Current progressives have a very watered down version of the Proletariat vs. Bourgeoisie framework but work within the system. Key to Marx and Engels version was a seizure of the means of production. Progressive leaders of today are super capitalists within limo liberal redistribution through taxation and government spending beliefs. Not really close to being the same, but within the same continent so we can say their is some linkeage.

2) Fairytale concepts of universal equality - I have actually never met a progressive that really believes in a concept of classless society, but they do put forth concepts like UBI and government sponsored happiness that make me roll my eyes.

3) Concept of permanent struggle - I think the sole purpose of the progressive movement is to ***** about inequalities and they don't serve a purpose if this doesn't exist, similar to the Marxist struggle concept.

4) Progressives do advocate for us of state power to govern capitalism

Differences:

1) Progressives are corporatists - Most of the leaders are entrepreneurs, tech billionaires, or otherwise are fully engaged in a capitalist pursuit. Even Bernie Sanders is worth several million from book deals,

2) Progressives propose very weak redistribution measures compared to Marxists and have been totally subject to regulatory capture. Marx and Engels would **** their pants seeing so many class warriors taking board seats and

3) Progressives have ditched labor unions and worker organization - The rights of the worker have been slowly discarded starting with Clinton

4) Progressive belief in private ownership of assets and economic competition albeit with great oversight and regulation compared to conservatives

Progressives identify more with the Social Democratic movements that Marxism. Social Democracy was a total rejection of Marxist ideology.

Tell me where you disagree.


The Social Democratic movement is an adaptation of Marxism. It's asinine to call it a "total rejection" when they share so many core ideals.

Nothing you said refutes the fact that all of the intellectual foundations of progressivism are rooted in Marxism. Critical Theory, Queer Theory, Intersectionalism, anti-capitalism are all ideals deeply rooted in Marxism. It's the memetics of Marxism adapted to the American ideal structure.

Marcuse, Foucault, Derrida, were all either outright Marxist or "critics" of Marxism in the sense that Luther was a "critic" of the Church. They never abandoned the fundamental ideals. They were all the intellectual forebears of modern progressives.
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Sapper Redux
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In reply to Rongagin71 • 7:20a, 8/24/24
Rongagin71 said:
Rongagin71 said:
I think that there were free or nearly free school lunches a long time before the Democrats created the Federal program with all the usual corruption entailed in huge budgets.
Food used to be incredibly cheap.
At this point, with food so high, I don't hear anyone saying school districts don't need help.
When I started to school (in the poor school district called South San) in 1954, almost all the kids brought lunch bags. There was a cafeteria, and lunches cost $.15, or less per lunch if you bought a lunch card.
Even when I went to Corpus Christi Carroll HS it was a big deal when lunches went from .30 to .45
I don't remember ever seeing a student complaining about not eating, but that may have happened in the bigger cities, or it may have been more of a teacher's union BS thing, I don't know.
I do know that conservatives still are fond of saying "there are no free lunches"...meaning someone has to pay.

Edit to post a meme from our political humor board...which I think is an example of going too far with the "Communist" label but understand that exaggeration is normal during campaigns. I don't think "Far Left" is an exaggeration.


That $.15 in 1954 is about $2 today, which isn't far from the cost of school lunch where my kids go. I guarantee there were kids who frequently went hungry. I guarantee some of those bagged lunches were almost nothing. The research on this is pretty compelling: providing free lunches increases student performance and actually reduces overall costs to the state in the long run.

https://fshn.illinois.edu/news/what-are-benefits-free-school-meals-heres-what-research-says#:~:text=Researchers%20also%20saw%20a%20significant,weight%20or%20body%20mass%20index.
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In reply to Silent For Too Long • 7:24a, 8/24/24
Lol. Every modern political theory uses class analysis and has since the late 19th century. Marxian analysis is baked into the modern political system. Including for conservatives.
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