Disagree. Maybe if it is harder to get a divorce, people will think twice before they get married.Macarthur said:
Neither of those things do that at all.
There's still consequences for divorce and making it harder to divorce just forces people to stay in abusive situations longer, resulting in more violence and suffering.dermdoc said:Disagree. Maybe if it is harder to get a divorce, people will think twice before they get married.Macarthur said:
Neither of those things do that at all.
And if there is not the fallback of abortion, maybe they would think twice about having irresponsible sex.
If there are no consequences for our actions, how do you encourage personal responsibility?
We're a democratic republic. When people say things like this, is it your assumption that a minority of people should be allowed to dictate law and policy to the majority?dermdoc said:barbacoa taco said:
How is what I said victim mentality? Wtf?
I'm saying it's really hard to defend any of this stuff if you claim to believe in freedom and democracy. It's an insanely extreme agenda.
Disagree. And I believe Kamala's agenda is extreme.
I believe in freedom. We are not a democracy and have never been.
https://www.ifo.de/DocDL/IfoWorkingPaper-79.pdfSapper Redux said:There's still consequences for divorce and making it harder to divorce just forces people to stay in abusive situations longer, resulting in more violence and suffering.dermdoc said:Disagree. Maybe if it is harder to get a divorce, people will think twice before they get married.Macarthur said:
Neither of those things do that at all.
And if there is not the fallback of abortion, maybe they would think twice about having irresponsible sex.
If there are no consequences for our actions, how do you encourage personal responsibility?
Abortion has been going on for all of human history. It was so common in the ancient world that they harvested a natural abortifacient to extinction. Eliminating abortion doesn't change sexual behavior, it just causes more suffering for people. It's amazing how policies for "personal responsibility" never encourage positive change but just punish people for doing things you don't like.
And you accused me of "jumps in logic"?Sapper Redux said:We're a democratic republic. When people say things like this, is it your assumption that a minority of people should be allowed to dictate law and policy to the majority?dermdoc said:barbacoa taco said:
How is what I said victim mentality? Wtf?
I'm saying it's really hard to defend any of this stuff if you claim to believe in freedom and democracy. It's an insanely extreme agenda.
Disagree. And I believe Kamala's agenda is extreme.
I believe in freedom. We are not a democracy and have never been.
Every dollar taken via taxation results in a loss of freedom.Rongagin71 said:
I give my own money to charities and the poor.
I do not use the government to force other people to do the same.
Sounds good to me, better than forcing people to pay high taxes
to support all sorts of schemes that involve political payoffs.
And saying abortion has "been going on for all of human history" has nothing to do with whether it is morally right or wrong.Sapper Redux said:There's still consequences for divorce and making it harder to divorce just forces people to stay in abusive situations longer, resulting in more violence and suffering.dermdoc said:Disagree. Maybe if it is harder to get a divorce, people will think twice before they get married.Macarthur said:
Neither of those things do that at all.
And if there is not the fallback of abortion, maybe they would think twice about having irresponsible sex.
If there are no consequences for our actions, how do you encourage personal responsibility?
Abortion has been going on for all of human history. It was so common in the ancient world that they harvested a natural abortifacient to extinction. Eliminating abortion doesn't change sexual behavior, it just causes more suffering for people. It's amazing how policies for "personal responsibility" never encourage positive change but just punish people for doing things you don't like.
I'm clearly no fan of Christian Nationalism, but let's be honest here. Every politically active faction (racial, religious, class based, LGBTQ, interest groups, huge corporations, feminists, war hawks) wants their minority to dictate law and policy to everyone else. That's the reality of politics. It's just a matter of which minority is in charge and which laws are dictated as to whether most people get upset about it.Sapper Redux said:We're a democratic republic. When people say things like this, is it your assumption that a minority of people should be allowed to dictate law and policy to the majority?dermdoc said:barbacoa taco said:
How is what I said victim mentality? Wtf?
I'm saying it's really hard to defend any of this stuff if you claim to believe in freedom and democracy. It's an insanely extreme agenda.
Disagree. And I believe Kamala's agenda is extreme.
I believe in freedom. We are not a democracy and have never been.
Amen.ramblin_ag02 said:I'm clearly no fan of Christian Nationalism, but let's be honest here. Every politically active faction (racial, religious, class based, LGBTQ, interest groups, huge corporations, feminists, war hawks) wants their minority to dictate law and policy to everyone else. That's the reality of politics. It's just a matter of which minority is in charge and which laws are dictated as to whether most people get upset about it.Sapper Redux said:We're a democratic republic. When people say things like this, is it your assumption that a minority of people should be allowed to dictate law and policy to the majority?dermdoc said:barbacoa taco said:
How is what I said victim mentality? Wtf?
I'm saying it's really hard to defend any of this stuff if you claim to believe in freedom and democracy. It's an insanely extreme agenda.
Disagree. And I believe Kamala's agenda is extreme.
I believe in freedom. We are not a democracy and have never been.
dermdoc said:Disagree. Maybe if it is harder to get a divorce, people will think twice before they get married.Macarthur said:
Neither of those things do that at all.
And if there is not the fallback of abortion, maybe they would think twice about having irresponsible sex.
If there are no consequences for our actions, how do you encourage personal responsibility?
Rongagin71 said:
I give my own money to charities and the poor.
I do not use the government to force other people to do the same.
Sounds good to me, better than forcing people to pay high taxes
to support all sorts of schemes that involve political payoffs.
It is rather humorous, isn't it?Zobel said:
Love the gen z finger wagging lecture
Move then.barbacoa taco said:Rongagin71 said:
I give my own money to charities and the poor.
I do not use the government to force other people to do the same.
Sounds good to me, better than forcing people to pay high taxes
to support all sorts of schemes that involve political payoffs.
This is always such a convenient excuse for letting people starve. "I do good things so this problem is solved!"
Good for you for being charitable. I do as well. That doesn't magically make all of society's problems go away.
I always chuckle when I hear pro lifers say stuff like this. The same people who say it will always, 10 times out of 10, vote down any law that would even marginally help poor people, and the excuse is always the same. Some variation of "muh taxes, muh freedom." And usually these same people had a lot of things handed to them in their youth but pulled the ladder up behind them once they got older.
The unborn are such a convenient group to advocate for. They ask for nothing in return. But once they're born, anything they ask for is an entitlement, a handout. Even the very reasonable ask of, say, funding low income public schools and free school lunches. These are NOT extreme positions to take. But the right has become so insanely greedy and selfish that they frame it that way. Cutting taxes for millionaires to let them buy their next boat or vacation home is freedom, but taking just a fraction of our defense budget and using it to fund a social good like free school lunches is evil socialism.
We're such a twisted, backwards country. I don't think I'll ever get over the fact that so many conservative Christians tell me that people deserve to die for not being able to afford medical care and then look me in the eye and tell me we live in the greatest country in the history of the world.
I taught at Baylor College of Medicine for years. Surrounded by some of the biggest libs in the world. Your "pushback" is nothing. "My circles" made me giggle. Thanks.barbacoa taco said:
Derm, I understand that getting some pushback (that you probably never get in your circles) makes you uncomfortable. But you did ask why Christian nationalism is problematic.
No, I'm staying. Wanting my country to be better is patriotic. Your view, of "if you don't like it you can just git out" is the nationalistic, unpatriotic view that is thankfully dying out.
How can medical care be solely responsible for bankruptcy?barbacoa taco said:
My criticisms are not with Christians. I know plenty of wonderful, loving Christians. My issue is with far right Christian nationalists who push an aggressive agenda to govern the country. Obviously, you fall into this latter category and wear the badge proudly.
And regarding my medical care example. Medical debt causes something like half of all bankruptcies. So many people die because they can't afford medical care. Many won't even take an ambulance because they can't afford it. And we just accept this as normal. Any proposal to change this system is shot down as "evil socialism."
That was just an example I gave to illustrate a point. You and others can talk about how much you donate to charity but that does not change the reality. I see this as wrong and want it to change. And instead of at least understanding my position, you take the a**hole approach, and say "then leave."
And my concern is with far left folks who want to push an aggressive agenda with no regard for anyone else. And you are a proud member of that group.barbacoa taco said:
My criticisms are not with Christians. I know plenty of wonderful, loving Christians. My issue is with far right Christian nationalists who push an aggressive agenda to govern the country. Obviously, you fall into this latter category and wear the badge proudly.
And regarding my medical care example. Medical debt causes something like half of all bankruptcies. So many people die because they can't afford medical care. Many won't even take an ambulance because they can't afford it. And we just accept this as normal. Any proposal to change this system is shot down as "evil socialism."
That was just an example I gave to illustrate a point. You and others can talk about how much you donate to charity but that does not change the reality. I see this as wrong and want it to change. And instead of at least understanding my position, you take the a**hole approach, and say "then leave."
Where did I demonize anyone? All I said is that abortion causes more irresponsible sex. And then linked two articles that supported my view.barbacoa taco said:
Again, demonizing the poor (or not even poor, but anyone not rich) as irresponsible, and implying they should be punished for perceived bad behavior.
My positions are not extreme. Most people support some healthcare reform to make it more affordable and accessible. Yes it can be done. Yes it will require tax money. Get over it.
The truth is, there are some low or medium income people who work very hard, spend money responsibly, and a medical emergency will still send them into financial ruin.
Who said that you were committing blasphemy? You are proving my point about projection with every post,barbacoa taco said:
Lucky for you, there has never been a far left US president. And if Kamala wins, she will still be center left. What is considered left here is center in most other developed countries.
Sure, I concede I'd probably love living in a European country. But Americans really don't take any criticism well. Any modest proposals to improve things or abandon things that don't work anymore are met with massive backlash
You know, it's as if the USA is God and by saying something is wrong, you're committing blasphemy. Like I said in an earlier post.
Do the lives of the unborn matter to you at all?barbacoa taco said:dermdoc said:Disagree. Maybe if it is harder to get a divorce, people will think twice before they get married.Macarthur said:
Neither of those things do that at all.
And if there is not the fallback of abortion, maybe they would think twice about having irresponsible sex.
If there are no consequences for our actions, how do you encourage personal responsibility?
As for abortion, same thing. Your view is in line with most of the religious right, which assumes the absolute worst about women getting abortions. They're promiscuous, irresponsible, etc. not even considering for a second there could be extenuating circumstances. Because it's much easier to impose your will on "bad people" than good people who are faced with a really bad situation.
And I am the "father shaking my finger".barbacoa taco said:
Don't play dumb. Your post was implying that if they had spent money on anything else (those dumb kids spending money on Starbucks or avocado toast) then they are irresponsible and probably deserve whatever misfortune they get from a bad medical situation.
So yes, demonizing. Not understanding a situation. Zero compassion. How hard is it just to say "yes that's bad, but I disagree with your approach"? This type of rhetoric isn't called out enough, and frankly it should be
Thanks for that.Zobel said:
Yeah because atheist governments have such a stellar track record in human rights.
Zobel said:
Yeah because atheist governments have such a stellar track record in human rights.
Is it "true" oppression if "western secularism" imposes its views on say Christians? Or is it only "true" oppression if say Christian Nationalists impose their views on others?Aggrad08 said:Zobel said:
Yeah because atheist governments have such a stellar track record in human rights.
You actually think that's a point? That a perfect example of conflating western secularism with true oppression. They are different
Zobel said:
no, its a perfect example that moral values come from somewhere, and the moral values of Christian societies are preferable to explicitly atheist regimes. a neutral society doesnt exist.
