Bob Lee said:
kurt vonnegut said:
This is basically right. Not that Christianity as such needs to be embraced. Its values and influences. Can you name a Christian value that makes society a worse place for everyone to coexist? (that's actually inherently Christian - in other words, not something that pervades the Church, or the fruits of some cultural mania that the people within the Church have glommed onto in error). If you don't acknowledge that the alternative is secular values and influence that beget the litany of things I mentioned earlier, we aren't going to make any headway.
I think we would first have to clarify what are examples of Christian values and what are examples of secular values. If Christian values are love, compassion, forgiveness, humility, integrity, honesty, justice, generosity, patience. Then yes, those values absolutely make the society better in my opinion. But, these are all values that overlap with the values of secular Americans. There is not a debate over whether honesty is better than dishonesty or if hate is better than love
The foundations of values and source of authority of those values are different, but I feel like there is more room for compatibility than perhaps you give credit for.
If Christian values extends to the idea of Christian exceptionalism, then I would argue this is the exactly the thing that does not make society better or aid in coexistence. If traditional marriage is a Christian value, then, if imposed, it is a value that makes life worse for people that don't share that value. If opposition to IVF is a Christian value, then, if imposed, I would argue it is a value that makes life worse for some people. In my mind, the compromise is this: You can have your traditional marriage and not use IVF. And someone else gets to have a less traditional marriage and use IVF. Neither side gets to tell the other what to do.
So, I think we need to define what you mean by Christian values. You've come out against open theocracy, so whatever the Christian values that are a positive for society that you are talking about, I would expect it excludes the idea that everyone must be forced to follow Christian morality
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As for our decision to recoil, yeah it's concerning. Because it exacerbates and accelerates the deterioration of society. Using my family as a microcosm, I mentioned my wife left her public school teaching job. She had just been named teacher of the year, and was the most requested teacher by parents at that school, especially for children whose parents were teachers. I suspect most of the ones requesting her for their children would agree with you that Christianity can't be in the schools. It's not YOUR non-Christianity. It's your aversion to Christianity in public spaces. You can't see or refuse to see how it's incoherent to my ears to say "I want you to participate in the public square, I just want to exclude everything you identify with from there".
I want you to understand that I do not want to exclude you from the public square. And I don't want you to forego your faith or identity. My entire position on this thread is that I want you to participate in the public square and I want you to allow everyone else equal opportunity to participate in the public square.
As it relates to schools. If we decide that religion and Christianity and Christian morality belong in school . . . then I am fine with that. But, what that MUST also mean is that Hinduism, Islam, Judaism, Secularism, Satanism, and any other religion also belongs there. Next to the 10 Commandments, lets stick up a poster from the religion of any other student or parent who wishes to equally participate in this public square. If you want children to have access to age-appropriate materials that represent Christianity and Christian tradition in a school library, then fine! We must then give equal access to age-appropriate materials of other value systems.
There is a pattern in this country whereby some jurisdiction comes in to build a Christian statue in front of a courthouse or open up a public preceding to a Christian prayer. Next, the FFRF or Satanists come in and ask for the same opportunity, and then the Christians lose their damn minds. It goes to the courts and after all the dust settles, the jurisdiction goes back to not allowing any religious symbolism or prayers or whatever. I don't know what it tells you, but it tells me that Christians are NOT willing to share the public square. Maybe you are willing and I've overgeneralized. I'm sorry if that is the case.
Like I said, I want Christianity in the public square. But only if Christians are willing to sit down and give everyone else the same equal 1/3,000,000 voice. This means not asking for special treatment in schools or public buildings that you aren't willing to give others. And it means not whining every time a private corporation or television studio promotes an idea that isn't compatible with Christianity. Private companies are allowed to support LGBTQ persons if they want. Private companies are allowed to support traditional marriage if they want. And we as consumers can decide how to react without acting out in righteous indignation when someone dares disagree with us. The same goes for TV, and shows on TV, and movies, and flags in front of a business, or a private home yard sign.
